Post-Game Talk: [GM 3] Vancouver Canucks @ Washington Capitals | 4 - 6 Loss (Pettersson, Horvat, Lazar, Miller)

[MS]

Do you see no issue in using a sample where they literally had nothing on the line?

Dead team. New coach bounce. Any time the games got close to mattering they cratered. Even under Bruce there starts sucked.

I get it’s 60 games but largely the same exact lineup had 150+ games of mediocrity at best.

Also did you really think they played well in the first last night? If so, I think you’ve gone way too far in this “just wanna cheer” thing you’re doing.

They’re 0-3 because they can’t hold a lead and the opposition can turn a switch and win….going on about samples and breaks is weird to me.

That missing the #5 Dman from the bubble season crippled this team is not a positive imo.

Did they have something on the line in 20-21 when they played terribly? Or do we only ignore good play when the team is out of the playoffs?

Also the team did get surprisingly close last year and they were playing for something in their minds. That wasn't a post-deadline Brandon Sutter run when the team was 20 points out of the playoffs.

I'm trying to use 82 games from last year as a barometer. Yes, they may have gotten a Bruce bump. But this team was also a miserable mess under Benning and I'd been saying for years that everyone underachieves when you're on a rudderless ship with no direction. So I've never taken those results as the 'true measure' of the team either. We were clearly a far better team on paper than our record between the bubble and the firings.

I thought the first period last night was generally a solid low-event road period, and that the team actually responded pretty well after the dumb early penalty by Boeser and PP goal.

Myers was the teams ES TOI leader in the bubble season. Wasn't even remotely the #5 defender except in a couple playoff games coming back from injury when they left the Stecher-Edler pairing which was doing well together. RHD was clearly by far the team's biggest weakness coming into this season and they promptly had 3 of the top 4 RHD on the depth chart get hurt.

 

[Zippgunn]

Naw Horvat part of the problem too, guy wants first line money he can get it somewhere else.

Sick of this ******

Oh yeah, his line was on the ice for 4 goals against. But yeah, he scored a goal but did Jack shit after.

Worst captain since captain bald headed fat f***

Right because Naslund was such a great captain...

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

When talking about pressure the players are feeling what about Demko? A horrible start to the year.

In past years the refrain was "it is hard to win when playing from behind" what now?

Last year the PK stank at the beginning of the season and at this point this year it looks they are going to be worse.

Hughes disappeared in the 3rd, again.

Demko is given some rope as he deserves it, but needs to raise his game. Hughes looks even weaker this year. He plays well when the pace is casual but struggles when tempo really picks under frantic action with players barrelling in lighting fast and heavy on him.

 

[m9]

When was the last time we had a winger that excelled defensively? Even just to the level of Higgins (maybe Pearson at times but that's really it? There's a reason why the Sedin line wasn't a liability defensively (and you weren't afraid of matchups against it). Burrows.

Higgins & Pearson are in the Eriksson-zone where if you ranked the entire league they would be in the upper-half in terms of defensive wingers but don't actually do much defensively so you can't say they excel. When you see a defensive winger excel they jump off the screen a bit as you will see them make plays that you don't see other players make. Mark Stone in the bubble series vs the Canucks is the perfect example as you see him make a bunch of good defensive plays.

It's probably only like 10% of the league wingers that are bad defensively - every team will maybe have 1 or 2. If you aren't dumb or lazy you'll be fine. If you are both (Virtanen at parts of his career here, especially early) you will be terrible. JT Miller is basically the only current Canuck forward that can fall into this category at times, though it's a bit early to tell with someone like Kuzmenko.

The only Canuck winger who would I say excelled defensively over the last few years was when Brandon Sutter played on the wing at times. guys like Shawn Matthias and Brad Richardson were also pretty good, but they played a ton of center and I'm not sure I could say they "excelled". Plus that was a long time ago and I really can't remember.

 

[Hit the post]

Higgins & Pearson are in the Eriksson-zone where if you ranked the entire league they would be in the upper-half in terms of defensive wingers but don't actually do much defensively so you can't say they excel. When you see a defensive winger excel they jump off the screen a bit as you will see them make plays that you don't see other players make. Mark Stone in the bubble series vs the Canucks is the perfect example as you see him make a bunch of good defensive plays.

It's probably only like 10% of the league wingers that are bad defensively - every team will maybe have 1 or 2. If you aren't dumb or lazy you'll be fine. If you are both (Virtanen at parts of his career here, especially early) you will be terrible. JT Miller is basically the only current Canuck forward that can fall into this category at times, though it's a bit early to tell with someone like Kuzmenko.

The only Canuck winger who would I say excelled defensively over the last few years was when Brandon Sutter played on the wing at times. guys like Shawn Matthias and Brad Richardson were also pretty good, but they played a ton of center and I'm not sure I could say they "excelled". Plus that was a long time ago and I really can't remember.

I only brought up Higgins in that he was hardly the best defensive winger on the Canucks during that time vs Pearson being likely the best defensive winger (until the new guy plays) on the team right now.

 

[MS]

Did they have something on the line in 20-21 when they played terribly? Or do we only ignore good play when the team is out of the playoffs?

Also the team did get surprisingly close last year and they were playing for something in their minds. That wasn't a post-deadline Brandon Sutter run when the team was 20 points out of the playoffs.

I'm trying to use 82 games from last year as a barometer. Yes, they may have gotten a Bruce bump. But this team was also a miserable mess under Benning and I'd been saying for years that everyone underachieves when you're on a rudderless ship with no direction. So I've never taken those results as the 'true measure' of the team either. We were clearly a far better team on paper than our record between the bubble and the firings.

I thought the first period last night was generally a solid low-event road period, and that the team actually responded pretty well after the dumb early penalty by Boeser and PP goal.

Myers was the teams ES TOI leader in the bubble season. Wasn't even remotely the #5 defender except in a couple playoff games coming back from injury when they left the Stecher-Edler pairing which was doing well together. RHD was clearly by far the team's biggest weakness coming into this season and they promptly had 3 of the top 4 RHD on the depth chart get hurt.

And just further to this.

I'm not looking at a Bruce Bump when I'm looking at expected improvement. I'm looking mostly at a Pettersson bump.

Elias Pettersson is the most dynamic, most important player on this team. He's a guy who flashes superstar ability and gives the team a totally different dimension when he's on. But between the bubble and the midway point of last year, he was absolutely f***ing horrific. Or hurt. He was a guy who had totally checked out.

Then he seemed to check back in and scored 44 points in the last 34 games of last year and looked like a top-10 forward in the NHL. And has kept that going to start this season.

It isn't LOL BRUCE THERE IT IS, it's 'wow, we actually have a legitimate star again' and that Pettersson playing to his potential is a gamebreaker that should drive substantially improved results.

 

[theguardianII]

I could swear some of the posters in here could have done a better job than Benning. At least most of us would not agree to trade for OEL, some of us would not sign Myers, that's 13 million cap already. Seriously, i simply cannot get over it.

Apart from the old boys network, a lot of posters could have easily.
With all the tools available.
The teams hire lawyers for law stuff, trainers for injury stuff, media people for advertising, assistants to help.

Is a college education needed? Did Benning even have grade 10 or Linden?

The old boys network is what kept women out of hockey and other minorities as well.

Sure there is always behind the scenes stuff but running the team it is not rocket science. Micro managing isn't needed, hiring good people is needed.

You know there is a problem when you think you are the smartest guy in the room all the time

Most fans do forget that the main job of the GM is putting bums in seats, convincing the fans to buy tickets and make money. Usually GM's as bad as Benning don't last beyond the first contract.
But Benning's management group did a good job selling hope, every year there was a shiny new penny to divert comments and hiring advertising outfits to astro surf the internet was a good idea too.
Benning suckered the mob by spending to the cap meaning they were trying hard but were not able to do more.

Good GM's can do both.
A GM's job should be all season, not taking summers off(3 or 4 months)

 

[bandwagonesque]

This team is currently icing 3 defenders who probably wouldn't play regularly on a good team, another who might play unusually sheltered 3rd pairing minutes, and a below-average top pairing. We all knew this would probably kneecap the forwards and prevent the team from being competitive for long stretches.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

When was the last time we had a winger that excelled defensively? Even just to the level of Higgins (maybe Pearson at times but that's really it? There's a reason why the Sedin line wasn't a liability defensively (and you weren't afraid of matchups against it). Burrows.

Oh. I thought it was because they didnt give the puck to the opposing team.

Boeser might have the worst defensive awareness of any player in the NHL.

Jeesus f***in Christ... some people here...

 

[Nucker101]

Lol at this only being one game, I bet it's 5+ if that happened to a top 10 player and the player got injured.

Dude literally swung his stick directly at another player's face, literally the definition of intent to injure.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Lol at this only being one game, I bet it's 5+ if that happened to a top 10 player and the player got injured.

Dude literally swung his stick directly at another player's face, literally the definition of intent to injure.

The narration makes clear the league believed Kusnetsov did not mean to swing his stick at Burroughs' face. Nevertheless, I think this is worth about 3 games. Missing one game is a rest and there is little point in suspending players for such a short period.

 

[shottasasa]

My worry is that it wasn’t necessarily the defencemen that looked bad defensively to me, though Hughes had some genuinely poor moments, and Schenn completely failed to clear the front of the net on the 2nd PP goal against. In the 3rd period it was the forwards just repeatedly failed to clear the zone, transition with possession, get the puck deep, and made horrific turnovers leading to odd man rushes. It was like they turned into a pumpkin.

Miller was the prime culprit and is demonstrating why he really should play on the wing. I’d be tempted to put him back on Peter’s wing and run Lazar as 3C to try get better structure.

 

[MS]

The narration makes clear the league believed Kusnetsov did not mean to swing his stick at Burroughs' face. Nevertheless, I think this is worth about 3 games. Missing one game is a rest and there is little point in suspending players for such a short period.

Man, I wish we got that sort of benefit of the doubt for the DOPS.

Burroughs wasn't squatting or in a lowered position. The stick didn't deflect up into his face. It wasn't some sort of accidental/careless swing - Kuznetsov's anger is clearly apparent when he then proceeds to crosscheck an injured Burroughs.

Kuznetsov got mad after a defender made a play against him and turned around and swung his stick head-high straight into his face. On what planet is that not intentional?

 

[logan5]

Is Burroughs that good, or is the defence that bad? Just noticed he got over 24 minutes in last nights game. Is this guy a top 4 now?

 

[Nucker101]

The narration makes clear the league believed Kusnetsov did not mean to swing his stick at Burroughs' face. Nevertheless, I think this is worth about 3 games. Missing one game is a rest and there is little point in suspending players for such a short period.

I thought it sounded incredibly stupid.

You can take a lumber jack swing high at an opposing player and be like "oh gee, sorry, I meant to swing at him, but didn't meant to hit his face".

Seems like a nice blurry line and a bit of a slippery slope. Next you'll see a player intentionally slash a guy in the nuts and be like "oh sorry NHL, I meant to slash him in the upper leg, didn't think I'd get him in the pearls"

 

[logan5]

The league seemed to buy into Kuznutsoff’s excuse that he didn’t mean to hit him that high. But then the guys cross checks him while he was down on the ice. Should have been a major.

 

[4Twenty]

Did they have something on the line in 20-21 when they played terribly? Or do we only ignore good play when the team is out of the playoffs?

Also the team did get surprisingly close last year and they were playing for something in their minds. That wasn't a post-deadline Brandon Sutter run when the team was 20 points out of the playoffs.

I'm trying to use 82 games from last year as a barometer. Yes, they may have gotten a Bruce bump. But this team was also a miserable mess under Benning and I'd been saying for years that everyone underachieves when you're on a rudderless ship with no direction. So I've never taken those results as the 'true measure' of the team either. We were clearly a far better team on paper than our record between the bubble and the firings.

I thought the first period last night was generally a solid low-event road period, and that the team actually responded pretty well after the dumb early penalty by Boeser and PP goal.

Myers was the teams ES TOI leader in the bubble season. Wasn't even remotely the #5 defender except in a couple playoff games coming back from injury when they left the Stecher-Edler pairing which was doing well together. RHD was clearly by far the team's biggest weakness coming into this season and they promptly had 3 of the top 4 RHD on the depth chart get hurt.

Myers was locked into the 3rd pairing nearly that entire season.

And he was brutal.

Whether that’s a 5 or not he was clearly on the 3rd group.

I’m content to just agree to disagree with you on the rest. I can’t understand thinking that first period was playing well.

Nor do I think 60 games should essentially erase the 150-250 games preceding it. It feels like you have chalked that up to hurt feelings.

 

[MS]

Is Burroughs that good, or is the defence that bad? Just noticed he got over 24 minutes in last nights game. Is this guy a top 4 now?

I mean, he shouldn't be getting 24 minutes.

But he's been a bit of a revelation this year. Last season he looked like your typical limited glass-and-out #6-7 defender.

This year, his confidence - and frankly, his skill level - appears to have taken a quantum step forward. Far more confidence with the puck, actually showing surprising flashes of skill, and is putting a ton of pucks toward the net. And is skating very well.

If this keeps up, he might actually be a legitimate 19-20 minute #4 RHD. Needs to keep doing it for a much bigger sample, but it's super encouraging.

I'd actually start thinking about trying him with Hughes and then putting Schenn down the pairings to babysit Rathbone.

 

[EpochLink]

Right because Naslund was such a great captain...

At least Naslund had a pulse and was a top player in the league when he was captain, can’t be said for Horvat.

 

[MS]

Myers was locked into the 3rd pairing nearly that entire season.

And he was brutal.

Whether that’s a 5 or not he was clearly on the 3rd group.

I’m content to just agree to disagree with you on the rest. I can’t understand thinking that first period was playing well.

Nor do I think 60 games should essentially erase the 150-250 games preceding it. It feels like you have chalked that up to hurt feelings.

Did you actually watch that season?

Myers led the team in ES TOI and played 60% of his ES minutes with Edler or Hughes. 'Locked into the 3rd pairing nearly the entire season' is totally incorrect BS. He did have a stretch with Fantenberg but that was when Edler was hurt and the 3rd pairing was Stecher-Benn.

He was also actually fairly solid for most of the season and better than I expected as someone who hated the signing. Then he was absolutely tragic in the bubble, both before and after getting hurt.

It isn't 'chalking it up to hurt feelings'. It's understanding that people underperform when they're in a terrible environment with no leadership or direction. Surely almost everyone has been in a job situation like this and the NHL is no different. I said the same thing consistently when Benning was still here - we won't know what we really have in this team until we see the players in a good situation in a properly run organization. This was an absolutely miserable group between the bubble and Benning's firing.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Man, I wish we got that sort of benefit of the doubt for the DOPS.

Burroughs wasn't squatting or in a lowered position. The stick didn't deflect up into his face. It wasn't some sort of accidental/careless swing - Kuznetsov's anger is clearly apparent when he then proceeds to crosscheck an injured Burroughs.

Kuznetsov got mad after a defender made a play against him and turned around and swung his stick head-high straight into his face. On what planet is that not intentional?

Kuznetsov may well have been telling the truth, but I don't think it matters much.

 

[Peen]

My worry is that it wasn’t necessarily the defencemen that looked bad defensively to me, though Hughes had some genuinely poor moments, and Schenn completely failed to clear the front of the net on the 2nd PP goal against. In the 3rd period it was the forwards just repeatedly failed to clear the zone, transition with possession, get the puck deep, and made horrific turnovers leading to odd man rushes. It was like they turned into a pumpkin.

Miller was the prime culprit and is demonstrating why he really should play on the wing. I’d be tempted to put him back on Peter’s wing and run Lazar as 3C to try get better structure.

The problem you run into with Miller on the wing - in addition to moving Lazar up - is that your new 4th line wingers are likely Podkolzin and Hoglander. They wouldn't be happy about that. I wouldn't be happy about that either.

Not to mention that Miller and Pettersson haven't played together for a long time and there have been murmurs about factions/their divide. Doerrie liked a tweet about yesterday, which I thought was funny.

 

[MS]

Kuznetsov may well have been telling the truth, but I don't think it matters much.

I mean, maybe? But if you're trying to throw a clean hit and you catch someone blindside to the head, you aren't going to be given the benefit of the doubt.

But also his reaction wasn't the reaction of a guy who made a mistake and was shocked that he hit him in the face. His reaction was to immediately hit Burroughs again when he was down.

 

[Peen]

Did you actually watch that season?

Myers led the team in ES TOI and played 60% of his ES minutes with Edler or Hughes. 'Locked into the 3rd pairing nearly the entire season' is totally incorrect BS. He did have a stretch with Fantenberg but that was when Edler was hurt and the 3rd pairing was Stecher-Benn.

He was also actually fairly solid for most of the season and better than I expected as someone who hated the signing. Then he was absolutely tragic in the bubble, both before and after getting hurt.

It isn't 'chalking it up to hurt feelings'. It's understanding that people underperform when they're in a terrible environment with no leadership or direction. Surely almost everyone has been in a job situation like this and the NHL is no different. I said the same thing consistently when Benning was still here - we won't know what we really have in this team until we see the players in a good situation in a properly run organization. This was an absolutely miserable group between the bubble and Benning's firing.

Please. Did you?

Let's go through it again. Edler - Myers played most of their games together early in the season. They started off hot together and then played bad together. They used Hughes - Myers as their push pair when they were down in games to try to generate offense.

They started the season with Edler - Myers, Hughes - Tanev, Benn - Stecher. You're right he wasn't "locked into the 3rd pairing" - but they absolutely did turn to him playing predominantly with Fantenberg by the end of the year.

I do agree that he wasn't awful that year. His awful year was the 2021 bubble season, where he legitimately looked like a bottom pairing defenseman.

Maybe there's another world where they force on with Edler-Myers for an entire season like they did with OEL-Myers and they go through similar ups and downs, but on the whole, their outputs are similar. I can buy that.

Here's my summation of Myers so far.

He played like a 3.5 million dollar defenseman in his first year. He played like a 2 million dollar one in the second year. He played like a 5 million dollar one last year.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I mean, maybe? But if you're trying to throw a clean hit and you catch someone blindside to the head, you aren't going to be given the benefit of the doubt.

But also his reaction wasn't the reaction of a guy who made a mistake and was shocked that he hit him in the face. His reaction was to immediately hit Burroughs again when he was down.

What's he supposed to do to express surpise during live play at something he probably barely registered at the time?