[Globe Editorial] NHL expansion: And why is Canada always the last draft choice?

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Grudy0

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oh, i disagree strongly.

directly, of course he was not involved in negotiations between TNSE, ASG and the NHL to move the thrashers.

but he created the context for everything ... he wasnt just fighting for a team in hamilton, he was very publicly and aggressively fighting for another team in Canada

folks here can argue that bettman will do what bettman wants to, but balsillie created an absolute and undeniable expectation across the Canadian hockey/sports fan and media landscape that helped force bettman's hand. sure, the logistics were conveniently favourable to move the thrashers to winnipeg, but i have no doubt that bettman felt a real pressure to go back to Canada and that pressure was the direct result of Balsillie's overall campaign to put one or more new teams in Canada. indeed that campaign continues to put pressure on Bettman to makeiteight, probably even makeitnine.
People here can argue that Bettman has all the power in the world, but just like the above, fairy tales are what they are.

It's Occam's Razor - TNSE had been working with an NHL team to understand today's NHL, were the preferred NHL backstop after the finishing with the Coyotes' bankruptcy proceeding to "blackmail" the City of Glendale in the summer of 2010 into ponying up the $25 million to keep the team there, and were rewarded with the choice of two franchises for relocation in the spring of 2011, where everyone has to note that there has never been mention that there were negotiations between the Thrashers and Coyotes and any other party. IMO, the NHL was able to steer a team to Winnipeg because the NHL wanted TNSE to be a partner.

And yet the clowns writing the article want to lead anyone to believe that Canada is last choice.
Not to mention he helped increase all NHL teams value not once but three times. Offered way more for the Pens than they were worth at the time. Then offered way more for the Preds an yet again for the Coyotes.
Because it was being offered with the contingency of a relocation. Unclosed deals don't do anything to increase the price of a franchise.
 

GuelphStormer

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Bettman was helping Winnipeg as far back as 2005. He is not the overlord of the NHL with total control over franchise location either. Balsillie took and was given way more credit than he deserves. Yes he showed how not to deal with the NHL, but that's all. The makeit7 crap was showmanship and a way to gain support for him. IF he was such a patriot why did he instantly cancel the movement when he lost in the courts? The jetowner website (which was around longer) did more than Balsillie.
it was actually 2002, not 2005, when Chipman first snuck into Bettman's box at the Salt Lake City Olympics, but yes, the principals had been working on Jets 2.0 for years. but again, I am not claiming that balsillie was directly responsible for that. i am claiming that his actions tilted the playing field and that TNSE as well as Quebecor have benefited from that.
 

Killion

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i am claiming that his actions tilted the playing field and that TNSE as well as Quebecor have benefited from that.

Im afraid I dont agree with that hypothesis GS. No Sir. You'd first have to accept the conspiracy theory that there was (or is) some sort of "Canadian bias" against additional teams in Canada amongst the NHL's BOG's, administratively. That the NHL was just loathe to Relo or Expand into Canada period & I dont buy that for a minute. They take it, look at it market by market, border irrelevant, non-existent. Ive read interviews with Balsillie (mentioned earlier here) where he does lay claim to being partially responsible for the return of the Jets & might even try & pat himself on the back, also in some way "responsible", opened the door should Quebec be successful with their Expansion bid (or wind up with a Relo'd team). And like I said, not buying it. Thats merely his narrative & its revisionary. He's attempting to take credit for something that he had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with nor even influence what transpired in any way in order to burnish & polish his own legacy, ego & reputation from failed suitor to Hockey Martyr. That he, Jim Balsillie, he opened the eyes of the NHL to the Way & the Truth. Lead them back to the promised land, the Great White North.... and Jesus wept... I mean, gimme a frikin break Jimmy lad. Plz. :rolleyes:
 

Carolinas Identity*

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oh, i disagree strongly.

directly, of course he was not involved in negotiations between TNSE, ASG and the NHL to move the thrashers.

but he created the context for everything ... he wasnt just fighting for a team in hamilton, he was very publicly and aggressively fighting for another team in Canada

folks here can argue that bettman will do what bettman wants to, but balsillie created an absolute and undeniable expectation across the Canadian hockey/sports fan and media landscape that helped force bettman's hand. sure, the logistics were conveniently favourable to move the thrashers to winnipeg, but i have no doubt that bettman felt a real pressure to go back to Canada and that pressure was the direct result of Balsillie's overall campaign to put one or more new teams in Canada. indeed that campaign continues to put pressure on Bettman to makeiteight, probably even makeitnine.

where would said teams be located exactly?

comox? moose jaw? thunder bay? lac st jean?

seriously

please continue

i will even refrain from saying anything further until you enlighten me
 

GuelphStormer

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Im afraid I dont agree with that hypothesis GS. No Sir. You'd first have to accept the conspiracy theory that there was (or is) some sort of "Canadian bias" against additional teams in Canada amongst the NHL's BOG's, administratively. That the NHL was just loathe to Relo or Expand into Canada period & I dont buy that for a minute. They take it, look at it market by market, border irrelevant, non-existent. Ive read interviews with Balsillie (mentioned earlier here) where he does lay claim to being partially responsible for the return of the Jets & might even try & pat himself on the back, also in some way "responsible", opened the door should Quebec be successful with their Expansion bid (or wind up with a Relo'd team). And like I said, not buying it. Thats merely his narrative & its revisionary. He's attempting to take credit for something that he had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with nor even influence what transpired in any way in order to burnish & polish his own legacy, ego & reputation from failed suitor to Hockey Martyr. That he, Jim Balsillie, he opened the eyes of the NHL to the Way & the Truth. Lead them back to the promised land, the Great White North.... and Jesus wept... I mean, gimme a frikin break Jimmy lad. Plz. :rolleyes:
we can disagree and still be drinking buddies, Killion. :)
 

DyerMaker66*

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where would said teams be located exactly?

comox? moose jaw? thunder bay? lac st jean?

seriously

please continue

i will even refrain from saying anything further until you enlighten me

Hamilton and QC for starters. If you wanna stretch it, add Toronto 2, BC2, and Saskatchewan.
 

Gnashville

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Hamilton and QC for starters. If you wanna stretch it, add Toronto 2, BC2, and Saskatchewan.
What about Halifax? Toronto 3&4?
The Canadian dream is a 22 to 24 team league with 12 to 14 teams playing "home" and only a select few in "deserving" US markets.
What cities must lose their teams to facilitate this fantasy? Let me guess where they are located!! The US south. Namely the "undeserving" ones that are ruining hockey like Carolina, Tampa, Miami, Phoenix, Dallas, Nashville, LA, Anaheim.

What the heck is that in your avatar?
 

DyerMaker66*

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What about Halifax? Toronto 3&4?
The Canadian dream is a 22 to 24 team league with 12 to 14 teams playing "home" and only a select few in "deserving" US markets.
What cities must lose their teams to facilitate this fantasy? Let me guess where they are located!! The US south. Namely the "undeserving" ones that are ruining hockey like Carolina, Tampa, Miami, Phoenix, Dallas, Nashville, LA, Anaheim.
Has anyone ever suggested this? If not, what purpose does this sort of hyperbole serve?

You have no idea what the Canadian dream is.

Phoenix is ruining hockey. I'm losing seasons because they don't have enough fans to fill an arena.

What the heck is that in your avatar?

The world's greatest leader demonstrating the ol' Shawinigan Handshake:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawinigan_Handshake
 

berklon

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What about Halifax? Toronto 3&4?
The Canadian dream is a 22 to 24 team league with 12 to 14 teams playing "home" and only a select few in "deserving" US markets.
What cities must lose their teams to facilitate this fantasy? Let me guess where they are located!! The US south. Namely the "undeserving" ones that are ruining hockey like Carolina, Tampa, Miami, Phoenix, Dallas, Nashville, LA, Anaheim.

Way to over-exaggerate to try and get your point across.

In any case, it doesn't really matter what "traditional hockey fans" want with regards to the "non-traditional" markets - they can talk until they're blue in the face, and have the most absurd demands (similar to what you've dreamt up) and the media can write up whatever they want - because they have absolutely no power in what happens in those markets. It's 100% up to those non-traditional markets to support the team in order to keep them. It's as simple as that.
 

Slot

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"some people came my way... and I had to go, so if you're in my way...."

Gotta love a crusty old Prime Minister who manhandles protesters himself. They don't make them like that anymore. :)

Don't forget that his wife bopped an intruder in their bedroom in the head with a soapstone statue as well. I miss the Chretiens sometimes.
 

SunDancer

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I do not think that "a list" formally exists some where; but I think those in positions to steer the ship (Bettman; some NHL executives like Daly for example; and some long-tenured BOG members or owners like Jacobs, Snider, Illitch, as examples) have been around long enough to know the business they are in and understand that certain markets would bring financial advantages for the league as a whole.

Those markets would be: Seattle, Houston and Las Vegas. Seattle & Houston have a lot of TV sets in their region for American rights deal negotiation, and the headlines/PR/Glitz of Las Vegas would bring a spotlight to the league, at least temporarily.

And all three are western markets which would be a plus in the efforts of Detroit and Columbus to get East (which they have now).

So while I do not think there is a list on the wall, and a master plan chart/map of "Ideal 30, Ideal 32, Ideal 34, Ideal 36" hanging on the wall of the NHL war room, I certainly do think that if Les Alexander or Chris Hansen called the NHL offices and asked for Gary Bettman, they would be put through quickly (in the event they don't have his cell phone number, which would not surprise me at all).

Make sense?

Well, if they do, they certainly don't act like it. First of all, the NHL's national TV deal revolves almost exclusively around the broadcast of a few of the league's "prime time" teams and has little to do with any of the newer teams ... regardless of market size. Secondly, and perhaps not coincidentally, some of the NHL's weakest franchises have been in large crowded sports markets. The last 25 years have shown pretty clearly that the NHL can not just show up in a big US city and just magically expect growth. I don't think anybody in any NHL office or national network is overly enamored by the NHL in large urban centers anymore. That may have been true at one point but I really doubt that's the case today.

What the NHL wants (needs) is successful teams ... but for the most part, market size and location are hardly relevant as contributing factors to the prosperity of new NHL franchises in the US. Winning is the only ingredient that matters for the younger American teams and that is determined by how well the team is run as a whole (and a bit of luck) ... not by how many eyeballs are in the area. So while I agree that Alexander and Hansen may have the league's ear, it is only in this context of ownership/management, not because of the cities they represent.

You don't have to look any further than Atlanta, a city you notably left off your list. Even though Atlanta may look appealing on paper, in reality everybody knows better. Theoretically, it should be every bit as important a market as Houston, no? But NBC didn't bat an eye when the Thrashers packed their bags and NHL revenues didn't skip a beat without them. Today I doubt anybody is eager for the league's return to GA. This is not to judge Houston one way or the other but just to say that it is probably no more or less attractive to anyone in the NHL than say San Antonio or Austin.

The other two cities you mentioned are Las Vegas and Seattle. LV may bring a few years of hype in the short-term, but in the long run I don't see any huge benefit to the NHL. Twenty years from now (if they last that long) LV will probably just be another drag on the salary cap and won't be any better or worse for the league than any other city of a comparable size.

On the other hand, most people agree that Seattle does have a lot to offer but if it's really that great, why is the NHL not already there? Why have they not managed to scheme their way into Seattle in any round of expansion in the modern era? If the city were truly on somebody's wish list‎, you'd think that they'd have orchestrated a move there long ago. The league seems to manufacture new owners out of thin air when necessary but when it comes to Seattle, nobody's ever cared enough to make it happen in decades.

Anyone who claims that the NHL expands with some vision of growing the game or pursuing a national TV contract is really giving the league far too much credit. When it comes to expansion, there is only one thing that matters to the NHL .... who's willing to pay the price of admission?
 
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Grudy0

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On the other hand, most people agree that Seattle does have a lot to offer but if it's really that great, why is the NHL not already there? Why have they not managed to scheme their way into Seattle in any round of expansion in the modern era? If the city were truly on somebody's wish list‎, you'd think that they'd have orchestrated a move there long ago. The league seems to manufacture new owners out of thin air when necessary but when it comes to Seattle, nobody's ever cared enough to make it happen in decades.
Because every time, others schemed against the NHL...

Granted a conditional expansion franchise to start play in 1976, but prospective owner Vince Abbey didn't have the required funds in order to complete the deal.

Went through the 1990 expansion round that granted franchises to Tampa Bay and Ottawa, but the owner of the Sonics derailed the expansion bid then had Key Arena setup basically as a basketball-only facility.

There's no real suitable place to play without a new arena.
Anyone who claims that the NHL expands with some vision of growing the game or pursuing a national TV contract is really giving the league far too much credit. When it comes to expansion, there is only one thing that matters to the NHL .... who's willing to pay the price of admission?
And someone gives the opinion that agrees with mine and has been noted in this thread and others several times.

And of course, that would definitely mean no bias to or against Canada.
 

SunDancer

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Because every time, others schemed against the NHL...

Granted a conditional expansion franchise to start play in 1976, but prospective owner Vince Abbey didn't have the required funds in order to complete the deal.

Went through the 1990 expansion round that granted franchises to Tampa Bay and Ottawa, but the owner of the Sonics derailed the expansion bid then had Key Arena setup basically as a basketball-only facility.

There's no real suitable place to play without a new arena.

Yes, all true. And each time somebody manipulated Seattle's bid, the NHL walked away from a large lucrative market because nobody could close the deal, leaving local hockey fans feeling teased and disappointed.

I wonder if that sounds familiar to the folks in Hamilton?
 

Slot

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Yes, all true. And each time somebody manipulated Seattle's bid, the NHL walked away from a large lucrative market because nobody could close the deal, leaving local hockey fans feeling teased and disappointed.

I wonder if that sounds familiar to the folks in Hamilton?

Not totally. In Hamilton there was a hockey ready arena and the NHL said that there would be an indemnification fee. When asked how much it would be the NHL front office basically said we won't tell you until after we take your expansion money.
 

Killion

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SunDancer

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Not totally. In Hamilton there was a hockey ready arena and the NHL said that there would be an indemnification fee. When asked how much it would be the NHL front office basically said we won't tell you until after we take your expansion money.

Yes, the NHL put the Hamilton bid in an almost impossible position and Joyce blinked. Instead the NHL chose the path of least resistance to their expansion fee, as they always do, and happily collected the money from Ottawa, a much weaker candidate by far.

Hamilton's story is definitely very different from Seattle's but if there is a comparison to be made, it's that it doesn't matter how great the market is, the NHL is not interested unless they have somebody willing to meet all their demands.

Here's another parallel: in 1990 Seattle and Hamilton both lost out to inferior bids, one in a small Canadian city (Ottawa) and one in a Sunbelt city (Tampa). In 2015, despite the various expansion rumors from Seattle/Tukwila and Hamilton/Toronto both are being passed over for ... you guessed it ... a small Canadian city (QC) and a Sunbelt city (LV). So nothing's changed. Arguably the two best markets available will remain empty while the league is still intent on chasing those juicy expansion fees from any town willing to pay.
 

KevFu

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Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
quebec city = makeiteight

hamilton / gta2 = makeitnine

keep up

I say Make it Ten, Quebec instantly (with Vegas) and when the controlling share of the Leafs is next up for sale, making “agreeing to a territorial fee for new Southern Ontario teams†a condition of the sale, enabling Hamilton & GTA to come in. Rogers & Bell can each own a Toronto franchise, and we get Hamilton in, too.


Well, if they do, they certainly don't act like it. First of all, the NHL's national TV deal revolves almost exclusively around the broadcast of a few of the league's "prime time" teams and has little to do with any of the newer teams ... regardless of market size.
…
Anyone who claims that the NHL expands with some vision of growing the game or pursuing a national TV contract is really giving the league far too much credit. When it comes to expansion, there is only one thing that matters to the NHL .... who's willing to pay the price of admission?

But those two are not contrary positions. They both are different avenues in the same direction: What, in principle, gives the CURRENT OWNERS more cash.
Expansion fees give them cash.
More TV sets/viewers in the footprint increases the national TV share, and it really doesn’t MATTER who’s on TV: The TV rights are sold well before any games are scheduled. The networks have to bid while the whole time there’s a possibility it’s an Ottawa-Edmonton SCF for the entire term of the contract. The more big market cities there are, the higher potential one is in the SCF, or winning, or on TV. Before the 1990s expansions, there were 10 teams in the top 20 US markets, and 11 teams in markets outside the US Top 20. They’ve added EIGHT top 20 US markets since (with ATL moving after the fact).

If you own one of the existing teams, really your only interest in expansion markets is “How does this affect ME, and my team?†Which is part of the reason few are advocates for Hamilton, because no one stands to gain very much from Hamilton (again, this is why I want more revenue sharing. So when the NHL owners realize: Hamilton is a revenue rock star, they can do the math and say “That means more money for all of us!â€).

If your Columbus or Detroit, you don’t give a damn if Las Vegas and Salt Lake City loses $20 million a year. Both would say “hell yes†because they get their share of expansion fees and two Western Conference teams let them sell 66 ETZ games to their TV rights holder, which is more money than four years ago, when they only had 50 ETZ games to sell to TV.

Secondly, and perhaps not coincidentally, some of the NHL's weakest franchises have been in large crowded sports markets. The last 25 years have shown pretty clearly that the NHL can not just show up in a big US city and just magically expect growth. I don't think anybody in any NHL office or national network is overly enamored by the NHL in large urban centers anymore. That may have been true at one point but I really doubt that's the case today.

Ad hoc, ergo proctor hoc? Certainly not. Just because something happens AFTER an event, doesn’t mean it’s CAUSED by the event.

Phoenix, Atlanta, and Miami didn’t suck because they are franchises in Top 10 markets. They sucked because ALL EXPANSION TEAMS SUCK, and with so many new teams sucking at once (and all the existing teams that were sucking like my beloved Islanders), it’s a lot harder to build through the draft. You definitely have a situation where teams little other competition of sports dollars (Nashville, Columbus, Tampa for example) will get a lot more patience/loyalty from the fan base with a long rebuilding process, solely because they don’t have a “Panthers or Heat tickets? Panthers suck again, Heat just got LeBron!†factor in those non-NBA markets.

No one in the NHL is going to be scared that a future big expansion market team because Atlanta sucked at hockey. When you look at Phoenix and Atlanta, the common denominator is not “Big market in the southern part of the US†because Anaheim and Dallas are also in big markets in the southern US, and Dallas was CRUSHING IT (until Hicks bought Liverpool) and Anaheim is just fine.

The common denominator is ownership that didn’t give a crap about making it work. Jerry Moyes and Atlanta Spirit Group didn’t buy the teams because they wanted to run successful hockey businesses. ASG bought the Thrashers to get the Hawks and Moyes was left holding the controlling interest in the Coyotes.

And I think THAT’S the valuable lesson they learned from the 90s expansions:
It’s not “Oh, we can’t go to Vegas because we don’t want another Phoenixâ€
It’s “We can’t go somewhere without a guy willing to buy in with $500 million, because we don’t want another Jerry Moyes.â€

The high buy in makes sure they have someone who is FULLY COMMITTED to the NHL in that market.

What the NHL wants (needs) is successful teams ... but for the most part, market size and location are hardly relevant as contributing factors to the prosperity of new NHL franchises in the US. Winning is the only ingredient that matters for the younger American teams and that is determined by how well the team is run as a whole (and a bit of luck) ... not by how many eyeballs are in the area. So while I agree that Alexander and Hansen may have the league's ear, it is only in this context of ownership/management, not because of the cities they represent.

This is the paragraphs that illustrates exactly how close our line of thinking is. The NHL’s ideal is obviously BOTH (Ownership/management AND that big market). Because when you add an expansion team, you are basically accepting that the team will, over the course of history, be bad, average and good roughly one-third of the time each. You don’t want — no offense — to add someone who’s like Buffalo, Carolina or St. Louis. Who in their best possible stretches are still not going to be big revenue teams for a period of time. You need a market that’s going to be able to survive the bad times in an old arena and crush it in the good times. And when you look at teams who’ve done just that (Dallas, Denver, NY Islanders, Anaheim, San Jose), the bigger you are, the more likely you are to survive lean times. Just look at the Panthers. As bad as the financial situation has been in Miami, they’re still there. Had that happened in Carolina, Buffalo, or Tulsa… would the franchise still be there? Would someone have ponied up and bought a franchise time and time again that has just sucked for almost 20 consecutive years?
 

Gnashville

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Way to over-exaggerate to try and get your point across.

In any case, it doesn't really matter what "traditional hockey fans" want with regards to the "non-traditional" markets - they can talk until they're blue in the face, and have the most absurd demands (similar to what you've dreamt up) and the media can write up whatever they want - because they have absolutely no power in what happens in those markets. It's 100% up to those non-traditional markets to support the team in order to keep them. It's as simple as that.
There is some sarcasm in there. But believe me my scenario is promoted by a majority of fans and media. Balsillie played it up this thought process and became a folk hero. Winnipeg and Quebec had teams "stolen", yet the Thrashers moved because the market "failed". See the difference?

True there is nothing anyone can do about it but this constantly complaining about franchise location is annoying. Why can't each one be evaluated on their on merits and misgivings. Florida has no bearing on Nashville. Toronto has no Bearing on Winnipeg. Yet between Winnipeg and Nashville one is considered a failure with no fans and the other is thought of as a top 10 revenue producer. When both produce almost exactly the same revenue.
 

New User Name

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Jim being a hero to Canadians...what a ****ing joke if anyone believes that ****.

Yes he wanted a team, yes he went about it the wrong way, yes he started make it 7, yes he riled people up to get behind a Hamilton team, but most Canadians don't even give flying **** about the NHL and never considered him a hero.
 
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New User Name

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where would said teams be located exactly?

comox? moose jaw? thunder bay? lac st jean?

seriously

please continue

i will even refrain from saying anything further until you enlighten me

Most Canadians believe only 2 cities can realistically support a NHL team. QC and Toronto2. Me thinks 3... QC, Toronto2 and Hamilton.

And to be honest, with the Canadian dollar sucking eggs, QC will probably be touch and go...thank God for revenue sharing.

Very close to my thoughts on this.


The same media outlet that made the large majority of those attacks now are claiming the NHL only placed a team in Winnipeg because it had no where else to go (which is 100% wrong)

I 100% believe that.
 

bigbuffalo313

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In 2015, despite the various expansion rumors from Seattle/Tukwila and Hamilton/Toronto both are being passed over for ... you guessed it ... a small Canadian city (QC) and a Sunbelt city (LV). So nothing's changed. Arguably the two best markets available will remain empty while the league is still intent on chasing those juicy expansion fees from any town willing to pay.

No, the NHL is passing them we because neither one submitted an expansion bid. The NHL can't just put teams wherever they like (which has already been said many times in this thread).
 
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