[Globe Editorial] NHL expansion: And why is Canada always the last draft choice?

[Gnashville]

Jim being a hero to Canadians...what a ****ing joke if anyone believes that ****.

Yes he wanted a team, yes he went about it the wrong way, yes he started make it 7, yes he riled people up to get behind a Hamilton team, but most Canadians don't even give flying **** about the NHL and never considered him a hero.

I said "folk hero" but just look how many posters on here are crediting him with the Jets returning. He's played the patriotism card well.

I 100% believe that.

You chide me for calling Balsillie a folk hero yet believe this
Winnipeg was working with the league for years and was listed by Bettman as the prime candidate for relocation (above US markets like KC, Portland, Seattle). Court documents prove that.

 

[Slot]

Yes, the NHL put the Hamilton bid in an almost impossible position and Joyce blinked. Instead the NHL chose the path of least resistance to their expansion fee, as they always do, and happily collected the money from Ottawa, a much weaker candidate by far.

Hamilton's story is definitely very different from Seattle's but if there is a comparison to be made, it's that it doesn't matter how great the market is, the NHL is not interested unless they have somebody willing to meet all their demands.

Here's another parallel: in 1990 Seattle and Hamilton both lost out to inferior bids, one in a small Canadian city (Ottawa) and one in a Sunbelt city (Tampa). In 2015, despite the various expansion rumors from Seattle/Tukwila and Hamilton/Toronto both are being passed over for ... you guessed it ... a small Canadian city (QC) and a Sunbelt city (LV). So nothing's changed. Arguably the two best markets available will remain empty while the league is still intent on chasing those juicy expansion fees from any town willing to pay.

Joyce didn't just blink, he took his G.I. Joes and went home, and then (horror of horrors) talked about the experience, which has since coloured the NHL outlook on Hamilton regardless of Toronto and Buffalo.

The NHL wants a nice juicy town with an "NHL" ready arena (or close enough) in the east and west so that it's franchises are able to bend cities over the barrel by saying "if we don't get X we're moving to Y". </semi-sarcasm>

 

[LouisOlivier]

Winnipeg was the #1 location because his owners. They are commited to hockey and the NHL know they will never got any problems with them. The NHL is a private boys club and you get in with good relations only.

 

[Killion]

He's played the patriotism card well.

I beg to differ and Im not alone. Your reading too much into the howls of a very vocal minority Gnashville. Fact is, and I speak for myself and many others who I discussed this with or read, heard from various quarters across Canada that while he & Rodier did attempt to paint the NHL with having an anti-Canadian bias most clear thinking people werent buying it. Rather surprised actually that he'd try & play that card, lowest common denominator. Rather like Goon Hockey taken to the Boardroom.

Had absolutely nothing to do with Canada vs the US or any such thing whatsoever & everything to do with Hamilton, Toronto & Buffalo, Balsillies methodology. His PR campaign in Southern Ontario bordered on total amateur hour, surprising in that he was then CEO, co-founder of a cutting edge wireless telecom giant with fairly sophisticated & higher end marketing & promotional platforms, delivery systems. Yet when it came to anything to do with his pursuit of an NHL franchise, it was all "cheaped out". Cloyingly annoying words like "under-served", creative be it the website or printed material just haphazardly looking like it had been slapped together over a weekend by teenagers. The oily Richard Rodier out making the media rounds never looking anyone in the eyeball.

Ron Joyce is mentioned up-page I see, and ya, he has made negative comments over the years, notably during the mid-90's when the CDN$ cratering & the institution of the NHL Equalization Program; prior to the Lockouts when the NHL finally managed to bring in some cost certainty that no, he was actually in retrospect "happy" that he didnt win a franchise in the early 90's. That the numbers didnt add up. Again critical when Balsillie was vying for a team. I think he was being negative for the purpose of simply criticizing the NHL in general but his comments certainly didnt help Hamilton in any way looking forward. The NHL used his words against Hamilton proponents in stating repeatedly that Hamilton wasnt a viable market. And of course as the years passed bye, Copps/1st Ontario aging, now according to the league, no longer have a suitable NHL arena which is absolute nonsense but there ya go.

As Phil Esposito said after the Ottawa~Tampa Expansion when Joyce & Hamilton denied... "Hamilton didnt get a team because of Toronto and Buffalo. Period. Toronto and Buffalo were very, very upset that Hamilton was even being considered because of Territorial Rights"..... Seymour Knox III told Joyce in no uncertain terms "as long as I'm alive theres no way I'd allow it" (or words to that affect). All kinds of anecdotal inf available in old media reports, in biographies, books, papers written, you name it. The truth is out there and it has nothing to do with Canada vs USA for the favor of the NHL & where it expands to or removes & relocates franchises to. Its all about the $$$. The specific market. Border irrelevant.

Heres an older piece on Expansion, Hamilton etc: www.canada.com/story.html?id=a7fb7904-01ce-40fc-b283-ff7930ad7cdc

 

[Gnashville]

I beg to differ and Im not alone. Your reading too much into the howls of a very vocal minority Gnashville. Fact is, and I speak for myself and many others who I discussed this with or read, heard from various quarters across Canada that while he & Rodier did attempt to paint the NHL with having an anti-Canadian bias most clear thinking people werent buying it. Rather surprised actually that he'd try & play that card, lowest common denominator. Rather like Goon Hockey taken to the Boardroom.

He had over 125,000 people sign up with Makeit7 and agree with him. That is half of a city (Saskatoon) that everyone claims would support a team better than most of the teams I listed. He also had an entire media eating out of his hands.

 

[Fugu]

He had over 125,000 people sign up with Makeit7 and agree with him. That is half of a city (Saskatoon) that everyone claims would support a team better than most of the teams I listed. He also had an entire media eating out of his hands.

Canadians do support NHL teams better than Americans. You may recall the NHL acknowledged that, on average, Canadians were worth $1.3 to every $1 Americans would spend.

The real problem for Canadians is that there are far fewer of them than Americans, so they start running out of sizable cities and industry fairly quickly. Of course, that doesn't apply to metro Toronto, but no one bid for a team during this expansion charade, so there you have it.

 

[Killion]

He had over 125,000 people sign up with Makeit7 and agree with him. That is half of a city (Saskatoon) that everyone claims would support a team better than most of the teams I listed. He also had an entire media eating out of his hands.

Theres close to 13 million people in Southern Ontario so Yipdeedoo he captures 125,000 on his website. If he'd been more sophisticated about it, gone about it intelligently couldve done a lot better than that. 125,000 out of 13 million? Fail.... As for the Toronto media, pack of hounds. Ratings wars. Made for great fodder, click bait, hit counts, ears & eyeballs. In no way reflective, a window to what Torontonians, people in Southern Ontario let alone across Canada think.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Canadians do support NHL teams better than Americans. You may recall the NHL acknowledged that, on average, Canadians were worth $1.3 to every $1 Americans would spend.

The real problem for Canadians is that there are far fewer of them than Americans, so they start running out of sizable cities and industry fairly quickly. Of course, that doesn't apply to metro Toronto, but no one bid for a team during this expansion charade, so there you have it.

not disagreeing with you, but it is important to also keep in mind that $1.30 cad p much = $1.00 usd

which is something v important to remember

 

[Fugu]

not disagreeing with you, but it is important to also keep in mind that $1.30 cad p much = $1.00 usd

which is something v important to remember

No, we're not talking about exchange rates but willingness to spend. These are USD figures.

 

[New User Name]

The NHL is a business but is also a partnership.
So by any means necessary, we have to allow a lying slimeball like Balsillie into the club.

hmmmm

Given how most teams in Canada are owned by people strictly looking for $$$ and not out of love of the game even more so.

and American owners are in it for what?

His point was that considering the way the Canadian Peso is trending, said profits might be higher south of the border.

hmmm

for example. you know the jets and all their crazy, [mod] fans that are the best in the sport?

hmmm

you give raleigh a half ass decent team and that % number will sky rocket

you give Saskatoon a team with the same seat prices and 15 million RS, they'd draw better than Florida.

and no I'm not advocating for a team in Saskatoon.

And for whoever said Leafs fan are brainwashed or stupid for supporting the team...sorry but I'm not. or is it whomever...maybe I am stupid!

 

[New User Name]

He had over 125,000 people sign up with Makeit7 and agree with him. That is half of a city (Saskatoon) that everyone claims would support a team better than most of the teams I listed. He also had an entire media eating out of his hands.

125,000 out of 30+ million

pssss I know people who signed up 6 times

 

[Killion]

125,000 out of 30+ million

pssss I know people who signed up 6 times

... I like to use 13M which more accurately reflects the immediate size of the market in Southern Ontario. For sure people north, east & west wouldve supported the concept & signed the petition on that website though the vast majority local to Hamilton-Wentworth & environs. I participated & posted on the chat board, most from Hamilton, KW, Guelph, core group of regulars wasnt huge but they were passionate & several very well informed. Many migrating here to hf when the site finally extinguished in late 2009 early 2010. As for the suggestion that Balsillie & Rodier had the "media eating out of their hands", yes & no. The Toronto Media Mafia, hockey specific is generally lead by Bob McCown (an American from Ohio btw) who's negativity on all things NHL, NHLPA, the Leafs & everything else knows no bounds, everyone else following in his footprints in lockstep. Ratings King. Highest paid talking head in the business. If Bubba dont like what NHL doing, Shoalts & the rest of them backing him up, writing articles. Hardly reflective of how the market or Canadians felt about it, motives for the suppositions & hypotheticals being advanced by that crew clearly designed to lather up a vocal minority. Boosted ratings, hit counts etc. What they do.

 

[rojac]

125,000 out of 30+ million

pssss I know people who signed up 6 times

There were also people like me who signed up out of curiosity and did not necessarily support Balsillie's efforts.

 

[Killion]

There were also people like me who signed up out of curiosity and did not necessarily support Balsillie's efforts.

Yeah, absolutely. Some curious, others "supportive of the concept" but uninformed as to methodology, details, but sure, great idea, another franchise in Southern Ontario. Great. I'll sign that Petition or site in support. Others perhaps not supportive but wanting to monitor the situation signing on to see where it goes. See whats up. There was never any "insider information" nor anything of the kind shared on that site. Very primitive, basic, though the chatboard highly informative & entertaining and that was open to anyone, un~moderated.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Theres close to 13 million people in Southern Ontario so Yipdeedoo he captures 125,000 on his website. If he'd been more sophisticated about it, gone about it intelligently couldve done a lot better than that. 125,000 out of 13 million? Fail.... As for the Toronto media, pack of hounds. Ratings wars. Made for great fodder, click bait, hit counts, ears & eyeballs. In no way reflective, a window to what Torontonians, people in Southern Ontario let alone across Canada think.

sorry but I dont understand what the point of this discussion is ... surely you are not questioning public support for another team in canada (or in hamilton specifically), are y'all?

 

[Killion]

sorry but I dont understand what the point of this discussion is ... surely you are not questioning public support for another team in canada (or in hamilton specifically), are y'all?

.... no, just redefining the parameters of discussion. correcting mistaken assumptions resulting in erroneous statements. what I do GS. Ha?

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

you give Saskatoon a team with the same seat prices and 15 million RS, they'd draw better than Florida.

how do you figure? the panthers averaged 66.1% capacity last season and drew over 461,000 fans

saskatoon has a population of 221,000 according to a google search i just did

if they hypothetically had a standard issue, 15,000 seat arena, which is p small to be fair considering the arenas where most teams play, that's asking 7% of the entire city to show up 41 times a year to have 41 sellouts, which is pretty much flat out not going to happen

and if they played where the hurricanes play (19,772), that'd be 9% of the entire city. p much 1 in 10 people, 2-4 times a week for 6 months. i don't care how much you think they like hockey

that just flat out wouldn't happen

 

[Confucius]

There were also people like me who signed up out of curiosity and did not necessarily support Balsillie's efforts.

Signed up got the hat and tshirt. Collector items now, i might sell for a grand.

 

[New User Name]

how do you figure? the panthers averaged 66.1% capacity last season and drew over 461,000 fans

saskatoon has a population of 221,000 according to a google search i just did

if they hypothetically had a standard issue, 15,000 seat arena, which is p small to be fair considering the arenas where most teams play, that's asking 7% of the entire city to show up 41 times a year to have 41 sellouts, which is pretty much flat out not going to happen

and if they played where the hurricanes play (19,772), that'd be 9% of the entire city. p much 1 in 10 people, 2-4 times a week for 6 months. i don't care how much you think they like hockey

that just flat out wouldn't happen

Ya, I think they'd do quite well in Saskatoon, if they had these prices. Wikipedia says 260,600 metro. You'd probably get a few "crazy, whack job fans" from Regina too.

http://panthers.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=106376

 

[Burner Account]

how do you figure? the panthers averaged 66.1% capacity last season and drew over 461,000 fans

saskatoon has a population of 221,000 according to a google search i just did

if they hypothetically had a standard issue, 15,000 seat arena, which is p small to be fair considering the arenas where most teams play, that's asking 7% of the entire city to show up 41 times a year to have 41 sellouts, which is pretty much flat out not going to happen

and if they played where the hurricanes play (19,772), that'd be 9% of the entire city. p much 1 in 10 people, 2-4 times a week for 6 months. i don't care how much you think they like hockey

that just flat out wouldn't happen

And that's not even taking into account how small the TV market is.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

And that's not even taking into account how small the TV market is.

Thank you

 

[Burner Account]

Thank you

153rd largest TV market in North America.

Yeah, natural choice.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

153rd largest TV market in North America.

Yeah, natural choice.

people are going to crucify me for trying to draw parallels between the chl and nhl, but the sasktel center (where the blades play) averaged 4,563 per game last year but seats 15,195 (which is actually 191 more seats than the mts center in winnipeg fwiw)

and chl tickets are like 10 bucks. no way an nhl team there would be profitable considering the median prices they'd have to charge. i sit row 1 ice level in calgary every year to see the #hcanes and boy am i glad they only play here once a year, or i'd go bankrupt

 

[Burner Account]

people are going to crucify me for trying to draw parallels between the chl and nhl, but the sasktel center (where the blades play) averaged 4,563 per game last year but seats 15,195 (which is actually 191 more seats than the mts center in winnipeg fwiw)

and chl tickets are like 10 bucks. no way an nhl team there would be profitable considering the median prices they'd have to charge. i sit row 1 ice level in calgary every year to see the #hcanes and boy am i glad they only play here once a year, or i'd go bankrupt

They were saying similar about the Marlies on NHL Network Radio yesterday. Not filling up their arena (although coming closer than the Blades).

So that begs the question: is Toronto really a "hockey city", or is it a Leafs city?

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

They were saying similar about the Marlies on NHL Network Radio yesterday. Not filling up their arena (although coming closer than the Blades).

So that begs the question: is Toronto really a "hockey city", or is it a Leafs city?

the latter by quite a bit actually