Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
- Jul 2, 2009
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Why is Rielly on the second pairing? He's a cornerstone already.
stagger out the amazingness rather than having them together
Why is Rielly on the second pairing? He's a cornerstone already.
I highly value what Darryl Belfry has to say about comparing young players to NHLer's:
belfryhockey @belfryhockey Jun 28
I particularly love when the comparison is to a first ballot HOFer. Each year the absurdity of the logic further distances the humour.
belfryhockey @belfryhockey Jun 28
The fact this is still accepted is mind-numbing. This comparative rhetoric perpetuates "boxed thinking" & insults our collective hockey IQ
belfryhockey @belfryhockey Jun 28
The common practice of using comparative rhetoric of current &/or past NHLers as an illustrative projection 4 prospects defines dumbing down
Back to me - Let's just remember - a player is himself and not someone else - not Crosby not Giroux - Mitch Marner will be the next Mitch Marner.
It will be interesting to see what we have with Marincin and Harrington. Seems like both are NHL ready this year (Marincin more so than Harrington).
If we can trade JVR straight up for a really good young defender... we should look at doing that.
Obviously the Kessel to Nashville trade didn't happen... but I wonder if Nashville would do JVR + Polak + Percy for Seth Jones + Cap dump
Gardiner is 25 and a top pairing defenseman.
Never draft for position. Add as much talent as possible, you can trade for position later. Besides, it's also easier to find good d-men on the UFA market. Anton Stralman, for example.
I love your optimism but I don't think Gardiner is there just yet and may never be. He is a dark horse IMO so I won't count him out but he needs to put it all together soon. I doubt he will ever be an elite penalty killer or defensive player but could a top tier offensive guy.
I love your optimism but I don't think Gardiner is there just yet and may never be. He is a dark horse IMO so I won't count him out but he needs to put it all together soon. I doubt he will ever be an elite penalty killer or defensive player but could a top tier offensive guy.
stagger out the amazingness rather than having them together
Gardiner is an elite NHL possession player, by just about any metric, already.
Some people have begun to think possession stats are everything. I don't think when people say "elite defenseman" they mean outstanding in one aspect. Does a world class skater who is marginal defensively qualify as elite ? I doubt it.
Except he's not marginal defensively.
You can dispute possession stats- not well, mind you, but nonetheless- but I don't see how you can claim that the defenseman with the 15th best even-strength (ES) GA60RelTM among qualified (1000+ minutes played) defensemen (league-wide) over the last three seasons (2012-2015), while playing top-pairing ES minutes, is 'marginal defensively'. To argue that is to blatantly disregard facts. His shot suppression metrics are even more impressive than that, but even if you disregard them, I don't see how you can sensibly ignore a defenseman's ability to prevent goals (which is the purpose of a defensive defenseman) when discussing said defenseman's defensive abilities.
Wasn't actually calling Gardiner marginal, was just giving an example. I'm not going to go through the stats to debate you but try floating the idea on the main boards he's an elite defenseman and see how that go's.
Having watched almost every game he has played as a Leaf I know he is not elite defensively. He is a great puck carrier but he won't be confused with Doughty or Kieth any time soon.
I think explaining why he is on the second pairing for both special teams might create some questions considering how weak we are defensively(one of the worst teams in league actually).Heck why isn't he our number 1 ? Also makes you wonder why we aren't hearing about constant offers from teams trying to get him ? Elite defensive D are always in high demand, surely we could have got more for him than Kessel at the draft, but we did not, because not many see him as that special.
Captain Morgan could be an All-Star in '16 or '17. I think he's on the first pairing until proven otherwise...
You can convert a forward to a D man, but you can't do the opposite
You can convert a forward to a D man, but you can't do the opposite
So your rebuttal is essentially: 'no thank-you, facts, I'll take the opinions of HfBoard posters'? Or is it that you've watched every one of his games since he began his career (I've done the same)? You then proceed to claim that we didn't get a good return on Gardiner because he isn't valued, instead of recognizing the very real possibility that the Leafs don't want to trade him (especially likely when you consider the fact that the current management group is very high on analytics).
Yeah... okay then.
actually, because the league has 1 representative per team now, yeah, Morgan could very well be an all star this year.
You are looking at one set of facts and ignoring the others yet are indignant that I do not see our number 3/4 defenseman as elite. Clearly my position is unreasonable and yours is infallible. Your "facts" are presented without context so how can I take them seriously ? Who are his match ups ? What are the zone starts etc etc ? Considering he is second pairing PK that suggests he is not facing the toughest competition very much.
I notice you were unable to address any of the valid points I brought forward and clung to stats with no context. That you place your opinion so high above your peers says it all to me. You are the only one calling a number 3/4 D on one of the worst defensive team in the league "elite". That you cannot see the weakness of that position is cause for concern.
Regarding trade offers, which is what I said we would be getting, not trading him (I'll assume you are better at reading stats ) . Considering we are told everyone but Rielly is available and no one is interested in Gardiner from what we hear does imply his value is not where you place it. That rebuttal is clearly desperate.
Don't you find it odd no one else seems to have expressed your opinion he is elite when our fan base is famous for overhyping our players ? Ah but you have already made it clear that your opinion has more value than the HF majority so I suppose that would hardly matter.
NHL.com rates the top 17 two way defensemen in the league: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=729524
You will note Gardiners absence. Interestingly enough they also used advanced stats to calculate them so this suggests you need to work on your context to make better use of your statistics though you would know your error if you actually watched the guy play.
This is a solid post. Interested to see Kadri's response. Nicely done.