Confirmed with Link: Gionta talks about the selfishness in the room

[Chainshot]

He got lucky that Allen worked out. Without a qb, you can have all the team players you want.

I must say, I find it really disgusting how some of you talk about former and current guys. It just reeks of a horrible case of former lover venom.
People that should be blamed are coaches, managment and ownership for throwing all those young guys into this trash situation and not guiding thwm to where they need to be. This used to be one of the best boards, we should try to get back there.

Ownership is out of town but dabbles in hockey operations - we know that doesn't work.
Management has been hired of a stripe that is easily seen for what it is - novice. Given the dabbling nature of the ownership, that novice level of the last three GM's is also something that doesn't work.
On the player side, plenty of us have sat on the mud being slung - some have tried hinting at it, some have tried to be opaque about it - but there is a slew of conversation around WNY about the nature of a number of players off-ice antics. Given the lack of professionalism in how some of them have conducted their time in Buffalo, the open secrets about the party culture is just part of what is out there.

Would better direction from ownership have helped? Probably.
Would better management hires have helped? Most likely.
Would players acting like professionals have helped? Probably.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Sure, but hockey isn't the military. And there's many professions where you'd want the most skilled versus the best heart.

Am I saying leadership and character don't matter? No. But I generally think, especially in hockey, these traits that are wildly overblown and/or misunderstood and often used as convenient scapegoats for teams that just don't have enough talent/are poorly run.

Take Ryan O'Reilly for example. Is he a good leader or bad? Good character or bad? The pendulum has swing so many times that I think the answer is he's a good hockey player that gets called high character when he's winning and low character when he's losing.

Does a healthy locker room beget winning or does winning beget a healthy locker room? I tend to think it's more the latter than the former.

Couldn’t disagree more. And your first paragraph is disconnected from reality. Military bases, particularly Army, Marines, and special ops, get swarmed by civilian business partners striving to learn how we do things. Sinek makes a living off teaching civilians to learn to lead how we do. I get about one phone call a week from companies recruiting me. Not one of those businesses is remotely close to anything I know about.

Look at when the Sabres have been successful.

1995- Muckler and Regier focused on bringing in high character players as they rebuilt: Peca, Warrener, McKee, Barnes, Brown, etc. Not every player was that way, but most of them were. And that eventually led to winning.

2003- Regier rebuilds. He brings in Briere, Hecht, Grier, and Numminen. And to cap it off, he brings in Drury, the ultimate character over talent guy. And that led to winning.

Remember when Pegula tried to back up the Brinks truck at Shane Doan’s house? Doesn’t seem so stupid now.

You absolutely need talent, but character is what wins Cups.

Look at Lou Lamoriello’s teams. The Isles are not as talents as the teams they beat. His Devils teams routinely beat more talented teams. Those teams had superior character, leadership, etc.

Montreal has that same culture as an organization regardless of who’s in charge.
The routinely make the playoffs and surprise teams.

The Sabres had all the talent in the world over the past few seasons. It failed because it was without the character and leadership required to win.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

ROR. Ah, no. He got sick of it. He tried to do extra work at at rink and was rebuffed. They made this Jack Eichel's team and paid for it. Every year it was all about Eichel not being surrounded by good players. I've never heard that type of talk from a superstar, let alone captain, and there have been great players who played on junk teams. Yzerman held his head high for years until wings were good. Eichel is a disgrace.

When has Eichel ever publicly said there aren’t enough good players around him? It woulda been accurate, and that’s what fans and media said, but I don’t recall anything like that coming from Jack’s mouth.

Anyways, would be fantastic if Gionta actually gave names- I totally understand why he wouldn’t, but at the same time the guys talked about probably know it, and if they were bad teammates I guess I’m not too concerned with their feelings. I dig brutal honesty and transparency, but he probably doesn’t want that drama. I’m also not so sure he was the best captain, but it’s not like we had other great options, and that doesn’t mean he’s wrong or selfish himself- obviously he couldn’t fix everything, but he also didn’t seem to improve the situation at all with his presence. You can’t force respect, but there are ways in winning people over and that seemingly never happened.

 

[K8fool]

When has Eichel ever publicly said there aren’t enough good players around him? It woulda been accurate, and that’s what fans and media said, but I don’t recall anything like that coming from Jack’s mouth.

Anyways, would be fantastic if Gionta actually gave names- I totally understand why he wouldn’t, but at the same time the guys talked about probably know it, and if they were bad teammates I guess I’m not too concerned with their feelings. I dig brutal honesty and transparency, but he probably doesn’t want that drama. I’m also not so sure he was the best captain, but it’s not like we had other great options, and that doesn’t mean he’s wrong or selfish himself- obviously he couldn’t fix everything, but he also didn’t seem to improve the situation at all with his presence. You can’t force respect, but there are ways in winning people over and that seemingly never happened.

If a sporto rah rah tool csnt command respect for his play anymore , why should youth who can play lusten to them . This was a bad fit and mgmnt mistake w all the free agents they brought i. That caused division as gionta still KNOWS but essentially didnt change or relate to fix it..

 

[Djp]

Couldn’t disagree more. And your first paragraph is disconnected from reality. Military bases, particularly Army, Marines, and special ops, get swarmed by civilian business partners striving to learn how we do things. Sinek makes a living off teaching civilians to learn to lead how we do. I get about one phone call a week from companies recruiting me. Not one of those businesses is remotely close to anything I know about.

Look at when the Sabres have been successful.

1995- Muckler and Regier focused on bringing in high character players as they rebuilt: Peca, Warrener, McKee, Barnes, Brown, etc. Not every player was that way, but most of them were. And that eventually led to winning.

2003- Regier rebuilds. He brings in Briere, Hecht, Grier, and Numminen. And to cap it off, he brings in Drury, the ultimate character over talent guy. And that led to winning.

Remember when Pegula tried to back up the Brinks truck at Shane Doan’s house? Doesn’t seem so stupid now.

You absolutely need talent, but character is what wins Cups.

Look at Lou Lamoriello’s teams. The Isles are not as talents as the teams they beat. His Devils teams routinely beat more talented teams. Those teams had superior character, leadership, etc.

Montreal has that same culture as an organization regardless of who’s in charge.
The routinely make the playoffs and surprise teams.

The Sabres had all the talent in the world over the past few seasons. It failed because it was without the character and leadership required to win.

Yes and no….. from my experience military leadership have FS or big flaws. It has a lot to do with military culture and how it differs from regular society

as for the recent sabres…it comes down to stability in coach and gm. The coaches picked to hire were coaches high on future coach lists as were GMs.

 

[5 Minute Major]

One of his biggest additions is a guy that has been known as a locker room cancer all his career (Diggs), which is kind of my point.

Diggs was a cancer?

How so?

 

[5 Minute Major]

He got lucky that Allen worked out. Without a qb, you can have all the team players you want.

That's one lazy arguement.

 

[Kevin27NYI]

ROR. Ah, no. He got sick of it. He tried to do extra work at at rink and was rebuffed. They made this Jack Eichel's team and paid for it. Every year it was all about Eichel not being surrounded by good players. I've never heard that type of talk from a superstar, let alone captain, and there have been great players who played on junk teams. Yzerman held his head high for years until wings were good. Eichel is a disgrace.

That's Tavares stuff and one of the reasons I was glad to be gone of him. Was about him and not the team. Everyone was so focused on getting him better linemates to play with instead of making the team better.

Lou could never work for the Pegulas. Supposedly, Jim Rutherford turned down an offer from Adams because the Pegulas wouldn't agree to be hands off in hockey ops.

True. Lou always credits Ledecky and Malkin (owners) for letting him have full autonomy of the hockey ops and Ledecky said "we didn't hire hockey hall of famers Lou and Trotz to give our input on who should be on the 4th line".

Pegulas need to step out

 

[jc17]

Couldn’t disagree more. And your first paragraph is disconnected from reality. Military bases, particularly Army, Marines, and special ops, get swarmed by civilian business partners striving to learn how we do things. Sinek makes a living off teaching civilians to learn to lead how we do. I get about one phone call a week from companies recruiting me. Not one of those businesses is remotely close to anything I know about.

I'm on board with your overall point, but slightly off topic, I'm not a huge Sinek fan. I think there are nuggets of good information he provides, but he can over-simplify a lot of stuff

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

If a sporto rah rah tool csnt command respect for his play anymore , why should youth who can play lusten to them . This was a bad fit and mgmnt mistake w all the free agents they brought i. That caused division as gionta still KNOWS but essentially didnt change or relate to fix it..

Did you borrowed Djp keyboard?.. I'm sorry.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Mid level leadership, like team captain, will only go as far as management above supports. I have worked several jobs now where I was the second in command, and had a boss that loved people needing him, so he would let people go around me so they knew HE was the boss. Leaves you powerless. No responsibility without authority, or you are just there to take the blame.

Talent alone will never win a team sport.

So I guess there's actually 2 Cartographers on this board? Myself and No611?
Myself: Former USGS/SUNYAB employed and educated.
CartographerNo611: Feel free to PM me if interested.

 

[elchud]

Most military people don't enter with an acquired skill and theoretically can be trained to do the specialty they sign up for. Is it that simple? Kind of, not completely. They also promote leadership based on potential. Is it that simple? Kind of, not completely.

NHL level hockey is a hell of an acquired skill and when you reach the NHL they don't train you to play hockey. Boy oh boy does talent and skill matter. But there's more to it than that.

Would rather have the most talented guys than the best leadership guys. Is it that simple? Of course not. A team needs both.

 

[Husko]

Diggs was a cancer?

How so?

That was a narrative that surrounded him his entire time in Minnesota. Was it true or just a convenient excuse for a team that didn’t win? I don’t know. But now that he’s winning in Buffalo no one has a bad thing to say about him.

 

[Husko]

Couldn’t disagree more. And your first paragraph is disconnected from reality. Military bases, particularly Army, Marines, and special ops, get swarmed by civilian business partners striving to learn how we do things. Sinek makes a living off teaching civilians to learn to lead how we do. I get about one phone call a week from companies recruiting me. Not one of those businesses is remotely close to anything I know about.

Look at when the Sabres have been successful.

1995- Muckler and Regier focused on bringing in high character players as they rebuilt: Peca, Warrener, McKee, Barnes, Brown, etc. Not every player was that way, but most of them were. And that eventually led to winning.

2003- Regier rebuilds. He brings in Briere, Hecht, Grier, and Numminen. And to cap it off, he brings in Drury, the ultimate character over talent guy. And that led to winning.

Remember when Pegula tried to back up the Brinks truck at Shane Doan’s house? Doesn’t seem so stupid now.

You absolutely need talent, but character is what wins Cups.

Look at Lou Lamoriello’s teams. The Isles are not as talents as the teams they beat. His Devils teams routinely beat more talented teams. Those teams had superior character, leadership, etc.

Montreal has that same culture as an organization regardless of who’s in charge.
The routinely make the playoffs and surprise teams.

The Sabres had all the talent in the world over the past few seasons. It failed because it was without the character and leadership required to win.

Your two examples are: (1) the late 90s teams that got couldn't score and got carried to a cup by the most talented goalie of all time (who had his own character concerns...); and (2) the 2005-2007 team that was arguably the most talented team in Sabres history. It has point per game players on its third line! And if you don't considered Drury an elite talent I don't know what to tell you, elite hockey sense is a skill.

You seem to be arguing a straw man that I'm not saying. I've said over and over again character matters, I just believe it gets overstated and misunderstood in sports, especially in hockey more so than the other big 4 sports.

 

[Chainshot]

That was a narrative that surrounded him his entire time in Minnesota. Was it true or just a convenient excuse for a team that didn’t win? I don’t know. But now that he’s winning in Buffalo no one has a bad thing to say about him.

That goes along with if a team wins, the off-ice/room issues don't have as much play in the press. When they lose though, all the warts come into focus.

 

[jc17]

That was a narrative that surrounded him his entire time in Minnesota. Was it true or just a convenient excuse for a team that didn’t win? I don’t know. But now that he’s winning in Buffalo no one has a bad thing to say about him.

They also tried to trade for Antonio Brown who is certifiably insane, traded for Kelvin Benjamin who wouldn't even play catch with Josh before games, signed 1 UFA that walked before the season, and 1 that walked at half-time of the first game. Cole beasely picks fights with people on twitter...

Not to say the culture hasn't improved, but some people seem to be under the illusion that the Bills started just prioritizing character completely and won because of it.

 

[elchud]

Can 18 year old go "bad" because of bad influences and examples in a locker room? If you want to make a comparison to the military this may be the one. Impressionable kids can become ne'er do wells when immersed in a training environment, a day to day routine, life on the road sharing the same bldg, etc etc etc

Not that I want to beat up on E Kane, but since his issues are public and well known. Maybe he would have turned out better if he had the right role models when he was 18/19/20. Who can know these things. Im a charitable guy so I say yes, maybe he didn't have to go off track. He is just an extreme example. Im not trying to slander the guy Im sure he is likable and has some great qualities and done charitable stuff and all that.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Most military people don't enter with an acquired skill and theoretically can be trained to do the specialty they sign up for. Is it that simple? Kind of, not completely. They also promote leadership based on potential. Is it that simple? Kind of, not completely.

NHL level hockey is a hell of an acquired skill and when you reach the NHL they don't train you to play hockey. Boy oh boy does talent and skill matter. But there's more to it than that.

Would rather have the most talented guys than the best leadership guys. Is it that simple? Of course not. A team needs both.

OK, let's go apples-to-apples. When the highest level of US special operations forces recruits from lower special operations forces, they are recruiting from an incredibly talented and well trained group. Eg: Navy SEAL team 6 gets their members from other, lower level SEAL teams. Army SFOD-Ds (Delta Force) get their members from Rangers and SFOD-As (Green Berets).

I know snipers who tried out for Delta Force, were already Rangers, and had never missed a shot in their careers. Incredibly talented.

And the highest level military organizations still prioritize character over skills and performance - which are world class and take years to develop.

 

[Bobby Bottle Service]

People will say this is crazy and maybe it is but ever since Pegula built that multi-million dollar dressing room and spoiled these little pr**cks, they have sucked.

Harrington walked onto the logo and the team has been cursed since.

 

[Hashbrown77]

Harrington walked onto the logo and the team has been cursed since.

MH has been an embarrassment to Buffalo sports his entire career.......if anybody should be run outta town its him.

 

[5 Minute Major]

That was a narrative that surrounded him his entire time in Minnesota. Was it true or just a convenient excuse for a team that didn’t win? I don’t know. But now that he’s winning in Buffalo no one has a bad thing to say about him.

Did you listen to Brandon Beane during today's game?

First and foremost, character matters to him.

 

[elchud]

OK, let's go apples-to-apples. When the highest level of US special operations forces recruits from lower special operations forces, they are recruiting from an incredibly talented and well trained group. Eg: Navy SEAL team 6 gets their members from other, lower level SEAL teams. Army SFOD-Ds (Delta Force) get their members from Rangers and SFOD-As (Green Berets).

I know snipers who tried out for Delta Force, were already Rangers, and had never missed a shot in their careers. Incredibly talented.

And the highest level military organizations still prioritize character over skills and performance - which are world class and take years to develop.

I've seen too much to comment on the last paragraph.

But fair play with special forces, that analogy works well.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Your two examples are: (1) the late 90s teams that got couldn't score and got carried to a cup by the most talented goalie of all time (who had his own character concerns...); and (2) the 2005-2007 team that was arguably the most talented team in Sabres history. It has point per game players on its third line! And if you don't considered Drury an elite talent I don't know what to tell you, elite hockey sense is a skill.

You seem to be arguing a straw man that I'm not saying. I've said over and over again character matters, I just believe it gets overstated and misunderstood in sports, especially in hockey more so than the other big 4 sports.

If you think the 99 run was just 22 dudes and Hasek, you didn’t watch. That team won games because the players bought in and had a ton of character. That team hardly got carried.

If you’re using points as a metric for the
2005-07 Sabres, you also have to recognize the era, and that good teams were scoring more. Sabres scored 281 goals that season, good for 5th best in the league. From 2010-11 onward, that mark is first in the league most years, and in some of those years it isn’t even close.

Fair on the straw man. But as far as character being overstated and misunderstood, that’s insane to me. You literally had the Bills GM on TV today, talking about character as his most important criteria.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I've seen too much to comment on the last paragraph.

But fair play with special forces, that analogy works well.

On the last comment, I’ve seen 22 years. I’m good with what I wrote.

 

[K8fool]

I've seen too much to comment on the last paragraph.

But fair play with special forces, that analogy works well.

I was friends w a seal for a while.. This is the only interaction i have w military now.. When the narrative he'd been sold suddenly clashes with the truth he lived ... Its a problem.. They suddenly have to hide what they know in order to not be labelled a cancer and get possibly blackballed .. The certainty level at which he lived his privileged life was ripped away and couldn't tell many people..

This is coming to many many more profession s without judgement as we go forward.. Whether this is relevant to bills and sabres issues and a lifer like gionta , i do not know.