Ghost Is The Best Defenseman On The Team

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

Interesting to have this thread started after a game in which Provy had 3 points.

He also was directly responsible for Tampa's 3rd goal and Hagg scored a goal but was completely awful. So, what is your point? Not sure I understand.

 

[Magua]

I just remembered that this was the guy who said Provorov was not good defensively and then disappeared.

The answer is yes right now, but the motivation for this thread is UNCLEAN!

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

I just remembered that this was the guy who said Provorov was not good defensively and then disappeared.

The answer is yes right now, but the motivation for this thread is UNCLEAN!

This post is bizarre on a few levels.

First, I rightly criticized Provorov's defense. He remains a turnover machine and atrocious on the PK. Second worst GA/60 on the PK only ahead of the stud known as Brandon Manning.

Secondly, unless your in someone's head, there is no earthly way to know anyone's intentions on any level.

I simply pointed out the obvious fact, supported by relevant stats, that Ghost is the best D man on the team.

He's been so good, in fact, that he should be mentioned as a Norris candidate.

 

[Magua]

I’m bizarre. But at least I ain’t no Provorov hater.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

I’m bizarre. But at least I ain’t no Provorov hater.

I'm not either but I certainly object to anyone on the team as being considered above any criticism. At that point, one becomes a mindless fanboy.

 

[deadhead]

I love THE MACHINE, but I was pointing out his predilection for bad turnovers this season.
Which I concluded was the flip side of his more aggressive offensive play.
He's still learning to balance his game and maintain his focus for 82 games, and 22-25 minutes a night.
I mean, he just turned 21 in January, obviously he should be a finished product already.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

I love THE MACHINE, but I was pointing out his predilection for bad turnovers this season.
Which I concluded was the flip side of his more aggressive offensive play.
He's still learning to balance his game and maintain his focus for 82 games, and 22-25 minutes a night.
I mean, he just turned 21 in January, obviously he should be a finished product already.

But no one said he should be a finished product. You guys are hilarious.

 

[Magua]

I’m still processing the idea that I’m a member of a hive that DOESN'T criticize players and only fanboys hard. Thought it was the opposite.

I’ve criticized Provorov in the past, even recently in some aspects, such as mediocre PP work. But the idea that he is weak physically or bad in his own zone defending are so beyond the pale of rational criticism so as to be waved away as fiction.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

I’m still processing the idea that I’m a member of a hive that DOESN'T criticize players and only fanboys hard. Thought it was the opposite.

I’ve criticized Provorov in the past, even recently in some aspects, such as mediocre PP work. But the idea that he is weak physically or bad in his own zone defending are so beyond the pale of rational criticism so as to be waved away as fiction.

Then it's a simple case of you not understanding the argument being made or choosing to ignore it and going with your own personal narrative.
Provorov is 53rd among NHL defensemen in allowing successful zone entry passes per 60 minutes. He ranks 32nd in combined clean entries (passes and carries).

He is 90th in successful exit passes per 60 minutes. Seems to me like it you who is the teller of fiction.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Analytic reasoning for solely judging a player is ridiculous. The analytic “community “ doesnt like Roman Josi. And he is awesome
It is a fine tool. But to me Provorov passes the eye test. That is enough for me

 

[Magua]

Then it's a simple case of you not understanding the argument being made or choosing to ignore it and going with your own personal narrative.
Provorov is 53rd among NHL defensemen in allowing successful zone entry passes per 60 minutes. He ranks 32nd in combined clean entries (passes and carries).

He is 90th in successful exit passes per 60 minutes. Seems to me like it you who is the teller of fiction.

You went on a diatribe when you were here last concerning Provorov's d-zone game and physicality and whatnot, which even people here who criticize him more than most (or did anyway while paired with Mac and Hagg) wouldn't touch......now you're talking entries and exits. Seems like a totally different topic, but so be it. This is your narrative, and we're just living in it.

Perhaps @JojoTheWhale or someone else wants to go more in depth about what you said given his access to non-public microstats (I understand why he'd rather do something else). No offense, but I don't trust your numbers either, and you appear to be messily mixing different things together without much context. I know from an article Charlie O'Connor wrote a few months ago using some of that data, he identified Provorov allowing too many passes AFTER controlled entries. But I'm not even sure that's what you meant; you seem to be talking the entry itself. Even so, is 32nd supposed to be bad, if I take your number at face value? You didn't provide actual percentages either, just raw stats/60. If Provorov barely has played in the d-zone the last few months, paired with another exit/entry machine, of course raw numbers/60 go down. Your argument seems messy.

Provorov consistently grades out as an elite entry/exit d-man from every scrap of data I've ever seen, and is right there with Ghost, or even better. He's neck and neck for the best on the team in that facet. Though microstats are but one part of the game, and we see d-men do well/not well regardless of success or lack thereof in that area. Like Provorov excelling in that area last year and coming up shorter in the shot/chance differentials. Ghost followed a similar pattern prior to this pairing. Sanheim didn't do so hot in entries/exits (though he improved before being sent down), but he excelled in shots/chances. But it's irrelevant for Provorov.

By the way, thank you for breaking out the "advanced stats." Were these not your words last time you came 'round ragging on Provorov?

Advanced stats means di**. No one has ever built a hockey team based on advanced stats. No one has ever proved advanced stats have more and better meaning than regular stats. No one has ever proved a player with better advanced stats is in real life, a better player.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Perhaps @JojoTheWhale or someone else wants to go more in depth about what you said given his access to non-public microstats (I understand why he'd rather do something else).

I’m not home right now, but anything private I had matched up pretty well with Corey Sznajder’s public data (link below) if I am understanding the conversation correctly. I’m definitely missing some historical context.

Tableau Public

I’m not afraid to criticize Provorov and I pretty frequently call him overrated by the groups that act like he’s the second coming of Hedman, but about the last place I would possibly criticize him is allowing Entries. Just so I don’t misrepresent the numbers, Gostisbehere is really excellent there as well.

 

[CapnZin]

solid, smart and skilled. wish we had about 4 more ghosts...

Sanheim and Myers- that's 2.

Morin & Gudas as our physical shutdown

Hagg- great #7.

D should be unbeatable in the next couple years.

Provy - Ghost (can't mess with chemistry)
Sanheim - Gudas
Morin - Myers
Hagg

Myers shouldn't be a bottom pairing Dman- just through to split the right handed Dman. Having 2 offensive Dmen together and 2 shutdown seemed a little redundant.

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

Sanheim and Myers- that's 2.

Morin & Gudas as our physical shutdown

Hagg- great #7.

D should be unbeatable in the next couple years.

Provy - Ghost (can't mess with chemistry)
Sanheim - Gudas
Morin - Myers
Hagg

Myers shouldn't be a bottom pairing Dman- just through to split the right handed Dman. Having 2 offensive Dmen together and 2 shutdown seemed a little redundant.

will just add that Kalynuk and Bernhardt will be in the mix as well. Sometimes I honestly forget how good our defence is going to be in the future because of all the personnel decision BS.

The flyers really are going to win multiple Stanley Cups in the near future.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

You went on a diatribe when you were here last concerning Provorov's d-zone game and physicality and whatnot, which even people here who criticize him more than most (or did anyway while paired with Mac and Hagg) wouldn't touch......now you're talking entries and exits. Seems like a totally different topic, but so be it. This is your narrative, and we're just living in it.

Perhaps @JojoTheWhale or someone else wants to go more in depth about what you said given his access to non-public microstats (I understand why he'd rather do something else). No offense, but I don't trust your numbers either, and you appear to be messily mixing different things together without much context. I know from an article Charlie O'Connor wrote a few months ago using some of that data, he identified Provorov allowing too many passes AFTER controlled entries. But I'm not even sure that's what you meant; you seem to be talking the entry itself. Even so, is 32nd supposed to be bad, if I take your number at face value? You didn't provide actual percentages either, just raw stats/60. If Provorov barely has played in the d-zone the last few months, paired with another exit/entry machine, of course raw numbers/60 go down. Your argument seems messy.

Provorov consistently grades out as an elite entry/exit d-man from every scrap of data I've ever seen, and is right there with Ghost, or even better. He's neck and neck for the best on the team in that facet. Though microstats are but one part of the game, and we see d-men do well/not well regardless of success or lack thereof in that area. Like Provorov excelling in that area last year and coming up shorter in the shot/chance differentials. Ghost followed a similar pattern prior to this pairing. Sanheim didn't do so hot in entries/exits (though he improved before being sent down), but he excelled in shots/chances. But it's irrelevant for Provorov.

By the way, thank you for breaking out the "advanced stats." Were these not your words last time you came 'round ragging on Provorov?

No, it's your narrative. You made it so when you decided to derail the thread that you were somehow in my head talking about MY intentions and calling them "unclean." Whatever that's supposed to mean. You furthered your narrative by insinuating that a criticism of Provorov must mean I'm a hater and now you admit you didn't understand the argument to begin with LOL.

Yes, you are correct. I did criticize Provorov's lack of physicality. His total inability to clear a crease. His inability to prevent opposing forwards from setting up in the crease in front of his goalie on the PK. The fact that he doesn't respond to physical play and cheap shots in kind. He's never fought a single fight in the NHL. Even Nolan Patrick has a fight LOL. Is it any wonder opposing forwards eyes light up like a kid on Christmas morning when they see #9 on the PK? Go ahead and tell me I'm speaking anything other than the facts and am just being a hater.

You said: Provorov consistently grades out as an elite entry/exit d-man from every scrap of data I've ever seen, and is right there with Ghost, or even better.

Prove it. I don't believe you for a second. Post the data.

You said: Ghost followed a similar pattern prior to this pairing.

Incorrect. Ghost was great prior to being paired with Provorov. In fact, if you took a look, the stats say Provorov is the one who benefitted from being paired with Ghost, not the other way around.

You said: But it's irrelevant for Provorov.

It's not. Nothing can be relevant for one player and not the other if they play the same position.

The advanced stats quote from me might be relevant here if I was posting advanced stats. The stats for Provorov are actually pretty basic stats for defensemen lol.

 

[Tripod]

Cool...being tied for 7th in ES scoring in the league is a "basic stat".

 

[Striiker]

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Ghost has become one of the best players in the NHL.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Isn't it ironic how you haven't posted since December and pretty much simultaneously with the first turbulence since December posts are made?

Also, i'm fairly sure this thread was posted at pretty much EXACTLY the same time that Provorov made a turn over that lead to a goal against the Lightning.

 

[TheKingPin]

Agreed. He’s the best Dman right now overall which is fantastic news. He is so unique too. Provorov is going through his version of a sophomore slump getting 20 goals and playing #1 minutes. I imagine he will be a lot better than his rookie year next and take over ghost again which is so awesome.

Good on ghost to figure things out. At his contract, he is worth a ton right now.

 

[whitstifier]

I’m not home right now, but anything private I had matched up pretty well with Corey Sznajder’s public data (link below) if I am understanding the conversation correctly. I’m definitely missing some historical context.

Tableau Public

I’m not afraid to criticize Provorov and I pretty frequently call him overrated by the groups that act like he’s the second coming of Hedman, but about the last place I would possibly criticize him is allowing Entries. Just so I don’t misrepresent the numbers, Gostisbehere is really excellent there as well.

It's the intelligence community

 

[Alex91]

Provy is like fine wine, time will make him better. He is real good now but once he figures things out a little bit more he is going to be elite. He needs to work on getting his shot off better and holding puck in the zone, which he should with ease watching ghost every shift.

Ghost has been better imo this year. He just “wants it” every shift

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

Cool...being tied for 7th in ES scoring in the league is a "basic stat".

Yes it is....and proves absolutely nothing.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Yes it is....and proves absolutely nothing.

Oh, come on, man.

 

[VoiceOfTheFlyers]

Ghost has become one of the best players in the NHL.

Yep. So good, he should be considered among the elite at his position.