Value of: Getzlaf to the Oilers

[dracom]

Please explain the conversation to me...

I have, multiple times, but I'll try one more time.

We are not taking contracts into consideration. We are not taking future years into consideration. We are strictly talking about who a team would want more for a playoff run, Getzlaf or RNH. Getzlaf, who produces more at even strength (from your own stats you posted), who faces tougher competition each night, doesn't have the luxury of playing on a PP with Mcdavid and Drai to boost his points. With that in mind, Getzlaf has proven he's still a quality player, but he also has ample playoff experience; something RNH does not.

Like, this is just common sense. You keep adding variables that we aren't talking about.

 

[dracom]

Yup, they're very close in 2020. They'd be our 3rd/4th best forwards. In 2016 - Getzlaf was better. Peak Getzlaf is much better than Peak RNH. Unfortunately, no one has a time machine and I'm comparing a 26 year old with a 34 year old legend.

And guess what? The 34 year is still better right now and his playoff experience and success is exactly why a team would prefer him over RNH for a playoff run.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

If you’re going after an experienced centre to add, I’d prefer Koivu over Getzlaf.

Likely a smaller price tag in terms of assets to give up, and you wouldn’t have to worry about the cap situation for next year. Plus he also brings far more in terms of defensive ability vs. Getz.

Neal-McDavid-Kassian
RNH-Draisaitl-Yamamoto
Benson-Koivu-Haas
Nygård-Sheahan-Archibald

 

[d0rkwing]

This thread is pointless, everybody knows we’re trading him to Vancouver

 

[dracom]

If you’re going after an experienced centre to add, I’d prefer Koivu over Getzlaf.

Likely a smaller price tag in terms of assets to give up, and you wouldn’t have to worry about the cap situation for next year. Plus he also brings far more in terms of defensive ability vs. Getz.

Neal-McDavid-Kassian
RNH-Draisaitl-Yamamoto
Benson-Koivu-Haas
Nygård-Sheahan-Archibald

That's a big nope.

 

[Czechboy]

I have, multiple times, but I'll try one more time.

We are not taking contracts into consideration. We are not taking future years into consideration. We are strictly talking about who a team would want more for a playoff run, Getzlaf or RNH. Getzlaf, who produces more at even strength (from your own stats you posted), who faces tougher competition each night, doesn't have the luxury of playing on a PP with Mcdavid and Drai to boost his points. With that in mind, Getzlaf has proven he's still a quality player, but he also has ample playoff experience; something RNH does not.

Like, this is just common sense. You keep adding variables that we aren't talking about.

Thank you for explaining it...

Just to reiterate

In 2020... Getzlaf would be a better playoff player than RNH

This is common sense, I need to accept that because it is obvious.

I am now allowed to use 2020 stats
I am not allowed to point out their different cap hits
I am not to use the fact getzlaf has 2 playoff points in the last 2 season and soon to be 2 points in the last 3 playoffs barring him getting traded.
I am not allowed to point out there age difference

You are allowed to refer to decade old playoff stats when getzlaf was in his peak.

We will have to agree to disagree.

All my NHL arguments in 2020 have me

1. Look up capfriendly for contracts
2. Look up the current stats of both players
3. Look up the team caps and see if they have space

I'm pretty sure the other 31 GM's that would prefer getzlaf over rnh this April would do the same as me. Well, maybe not Chia.

Ftr.. I like getzlaf... Have said he's a future hall Hall of famer and think that he's about equivalent to rnh.

 

[Czechboy]

And guess what? The 34 year is still better right now and his playoff experience and success is exactly why a team would prefer him over RNH for a playoff run.

In the same sentence you say

Right now = 2020
More playoff experience = 2010 to 2017

Using that I could say James Neal is going to be our best playoff performer and lucic should've been our best one in 2016.

 

[JonathnTaylorTavares]

In the same sentence you say

Right now = 2020
More playoff experience = 2010 to 2017

Using that I could say James Neal is going to be our best playoff performer and lucic should've been our best one in 2016.

He didn’t say he is better because of his experience. He said IS better AND has playoff experience. Big diff

 

[Czechboy]

He didn’t say he is better because of his experience. He said IS better AND has playoff experience. Big diff

I keep seeing the opinion. Just not a stat that shows he is better in 2020. I'm sticking to they are very close today in 2020.

 

[Czechboy]

He didn’t say he is better because of his experience. He said IS better AND has playoff experience. Big diff

Wait a minute! I reread it.. it's actually exactly what he says:

The 34 year is still better right now and his playoff experience and success is exactly why a team would prefer him over RNH for a playoff run.

That playoff experience is 2017 and earlier... I've already posted his playoff stats above. No one is denying that peak Getzlaf would be better. Hell, peak Getlaf might push Drai to line 2 in a playoff series.

 

[Homesick]

Why do the Oilers want to do this?
Such an NHL 2k move

 

[duckpuck]

Wait a minute! I reread it.. it's actually exactly what he says:

The 34 year is still better right now and his playoff experience and success is exactly why a team would prefer him over RNH for a playoff run.

That playoff experience is 2017 and earlier... I've already posted his playoff stats above. No one is denying that peak Getzlaf would be better. Hell, peak Getlaf might push Drai to line 2 in a playoff series.

Did Getzlaf lose his playoff experience in the past year? What are you saying - that 11 years of playoff experience as a captain, with deep runs, doesn't matter because you miss the playoffs in one year?

Getzlaf has played in 125 playoff games, scoring 120 points, mostly in a 1C role. He's a proven playoff performer. He still drives play as a 1C - not like he used to but with stretches of dominance. If he's dropped down to a 2c or 3c role (the role RNH has), he will be consistently dominant, particularly in the playoffs where things slow down and physicality becomes more of an issue.

RNH is a fine player but not much of a playoff producer in his limited 13 games. At this point in time - 2020 season only - Getzlaf is still more valuable in a 2c/3c role. That could change next year and almost certainly will change at some point given age.

 

[Czechboy]

Why do the Oilers want to do this?
Such an NHL 2k move

They don't... it's ridiculous. They have no cap space and cannot afford an 8 million dollar 3C who is 34 and has another year on his contract.

McD + Drai + Getzlaf would be making close to 30 million to start next season. Oil would finally be rid of the Gagner/Manning/Gryba contracts (about 4.5 million gone). Will still be paying for Sekera/Lucic/Pouliot (about 4.5 million).

The 4.5 we free up will go directly to Kassian/Nurse/Bear.

Edmonton Oilers - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Coincidentally, Ducks don't have much cap space either.
Anaheim Ducks - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Add in the fact that Getzlaf said he's staying and has a NMC.

The only way the Oil could do this would be if the Ducks took on all our bad contracts (Gagner, Manning, Russel), Getzlaf waived his NMC and retained salary and I have no idea why Anaheim/Getzlaf would do that.

It has been confirmed they are targetting guys like Kapanan, Kerfoot and Johnsson though.. those talks make sense as they are all cap friendly and could fit in the team asap.

Deadline Targets: Oilers apparently have shown interest in Leafs’ Kapanen, Johnsson, and Kerfoot

 

[dracom]

Thank you for explaining it...

Just to reiterate

In 2020... Getzlaf would be a better playoff player than RNH

This is common sense, I need to accept that because it is obvious.

I am now allowed to use 2020 stats
I am not allowed to point out their different cap hits
I am not to use the fact getzlaf has 2 playoff points in the last 2 season and soon to be 2 points in the last 3 playoffs barring him getting traded.
I am not allowed to point out there age difference

You are allowed to refer to decade old playoff stats when getzlaf was in his peak.

We will have to agree to disagree.

All my NHL arguments in 2020 have me

1. Look up capfriendly for contracts
2. Look up the current stats of both players
3. Look up the team caps and see if they have space

I'm pretty sure the other 31 GM's that would prefer getzlaf over rnh this April would do the same as me. Well, maybe not Chia.

Ftr.. I like getzlaf... Have said he's a future hall Hall of famer and think that he's about equivalent to rnh.

Ok, you still don't actually understand the conversation being had.

I'm not predicting the 2020 playoffs. What I'm saying is that due to their current stats and playoff experience; a team is going to prefer Getzlaf over RNH for a playoff run since he would be the more likely player to succeed. Getz currently plays as a 1C facing teams toughest competition, RNH does not; Getz would be more likely be a better 2C for a contending team that RNH would be. If players are comparable, it's common sense a team is going to prefer the guy with playoff experience for a playoff run.

You can use 2020 stats, but you can't ignore that Getz is better at even strength, is better at the face off, and produces similar stats while facing tougher competition.
Cap hits don't matter in the playoffs, they don't matter in this scenario since we're talking about any playoff team and who they would rather have in a playoff run. cap hits are playing on the ice.
How many playoff points does RNH have in the last 2 years?
You can point out the age difference, it just doesn't matter. Would you rather take RNH over Crosby because RNH is younger? (Not saying Getz is Crosby, just a point).

I'm allowed to use past playoff stats because it shows he's been good at preforming in the playoffs; which is exactly what a team would look at if they were trying to decide they want to add said player for a playoff run.

 

[Czechboy]

Did Getzlaf lose his playoff experience in the past year?

Did Jagr? Did Greztky? Did Lucic? Has James Neal?

I guess you never lose your playoff experience if that's what you are saying. All the guys I listed above have lots of playoff experience.

What are you saying - that 11 years of playoff experience as a captain, with deep runs, doesn't matter because you miss the playoffs in one year?

His last good run was 2017 (knocked out the Oilers ironically enough.lol). That's 3 season now. He was 31 then. He is 34 now. If you're saying it's not fair to not count years he didn't make the playoffs because that's a team issue... please scroll down. If you're saying he'd produce the same as a 34 year old as he did as a 25 to 31 year old then please give me a few examples of players that have done this in the NHL. Maybe Iginla? Sakic? I can't think of many guys that produce the same at age 34 (his age today) and 31 (his age in his last great playoff run). FTR... in that 2016 series, I thought Getzlaf was the best player on the ice for both teams.

If he's dropped down to a 2c or 3c role (the role RNH has)

My point exactly.. he is equivalent to RNH today.

RNH is a fine player but not much of a playoff producer in his limited 13 games.

RNH has played for the Oiler's. They have been the worst team in the NHL the last decade... the worst!
Connor McDavid and Drai also have limited playoff numbers. It isn't their fault they landed in Edmonton. All these guys are in their prime years.

Getzlaf is still more valuable in a 2c/3c role.

Based on what stat? In 2020? I see them is pretty much equivalent today.

 

[Czechboy]

I'm not predicting the 2020 playoffs.

This is literally what you typed above:

In 2020... Getzlaf would be a better playoff player than RNH

If players are comparable, it's common sense a team is going to prefer the guy with playoff experience for a playoff run.

Depends on their age. Guys without more playoff experience are also older than guys without it. Connor McDavid has almost no playoff experience.. heading into the playoffs I'll take him over every single player in the NHL.

but you can't ignore that Getz is better at even strength, is better at the face off, and produces similar stats while facing tougher competition.

I'm waiting for stats on this one (better at even strength).
RNH has better faceoff stats this year (I've shown that above)
RNH faces brutal competition with brutal linemates (prior to the last 8 games where he got Drai and Yam)

Cap hits don't matter in the playoffs

Or the Olympics. However, you gotta get the on your team before the playoffs. FTR... I'm happy to talk about a non cap world because it makes zero sense in one with a cap.

How many playoff points does RNH have in the last 2 years?

He has 0 points... Getzlaf has 2.

Would you rather take RNH over Crosby because RNH is younger?

That would be a dumb argument from me. Keep in mind I'm not trying to insult you... I'm giving you stats and facts.

Crosby is 2 years younger than Getzlaf.
Crosby had 100 points last year.
Crosby has 22 points in the last 2 playoffs combined.

Sidney Crosby Stats and News

However, we can't afford Sidney either.lol This isn't the Olympics.

Sidney Crosby - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

To be clear, we can't afford any player for 8 million a year. But, if I had to choose between 32 year old Crosby and 34 year old Getzlaf for the same cap hit (give or take 500k)... I'm taking Crosby. Yes I'd take Crosby over RNH as well. I"m not sure what the point was?

 

[duckpuck]

Did Jagr? Did Greztky? Did Lucic? Has James Neal?

I guess you never lose your playoff experience if that's what you are saying. All the guys I listed above have lots of playoff experience.



His last good run was 2017 (knocked out the Oilers ironically enough.lol). That's 3 season now. He was 31 then. He is 34 now. If you're saying it's not fair to not count years he didn't make the playoffs because that's a team issue... please scroll down. If you're saying he'd produce the same as a 34 year old as he did as a 25 to 31 year old then please give me a few examples of players that have done this in the NHL. Maybe Iginla? Sakic? I can't think of many guys that produce the same at age 34 (his age today) and 31 (his age in his last great playoff run). FTR... in that 2016 series, I thought Getzlaf was the best player on the ice for both teams.



My point exactly.. he is equivalent to RNH today.



RNH has played for the Oiler's. They have been the worst team in the NHL the last decade... the worst!
Connor McDavid and Drai also have limited playoff numbers. It isn't their fault they landed in Edmonton. All these guys are in their prime years.



Based on what stat? In 2020? I see them is pretty much equivalent today.

I'll make this simple. How many NHL players or management would prefer RNH over Getzlaf in 2020 playoff series? You're entitled to your opinion, but I think the answer is "not many."

 

[Czechboy]

I'll make this simple. How many NHL players or management would prefer RNH over Getzlaf in 2020 playoff series? You're entitled to your opinion, but I think the answer is "not many."

Thanks for keeping it simple.

I disagree. They are extremely close in ability today but one is younger and faster. RNH kills more penalties (Getzlaf is under 50 seconds a game, RNH is over 1:30 a game), has more goals, has a higher .ppg, plays more minutes and costs over 2 million less. If I'm a GM, I'm taking that guy every time for this upcoming playoff run.

I think some might not realize how weak the Edmonton forwards are... it goes

Drai/McDavid - sublime
RNH - very good
big black hole - Spengler Cup quality players. Maybe Yamamoto one day but he's a rookie.

The thing is, RNH has been playing with awful rotating linemates all season. Neal, Khaira, Chiasson, Sam Gagner and Tomas Jurco. That's who he has spent his season playing with. Most those guys wouldn't even make the ducks.

Ryan Nugent-hopkins - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

Getzlaf is playing most commonly with Kase, Ritchie, Comtois, Henrique, Rackell and Sprong. The only guy that RNH has played with that is even close to this group is James Neal (who also has a lot of playoff experience).

Ryan Getzlaf - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

So RNH is playing with lesser linemates on line 2 and killing more penalties. I think a GM or two might value that.

Everyone is right that RNH does get to sit on a beautiful powerplay. I don't deny that at all. He's not a passenger on there though. Getzlaf powerplay mintues are declining as the season progresses. That's not very encouraging if I'm a GM looking to decide between the 2. Special teams are important.

You mentioned how valuable playoff experience is and if it goes away. I remember that Corry Perry was a huge part of those amazing Anaheim teams. He signed for 3 million this year (1.5 cap hit).

Corey Perry - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Jason Spezza has also been almost a .ppg player and he signed for 1 million dollars.

Jason Spezza - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

I hope I answered your simple question. I think a GM would take the younger player with a smaller cap hit, more points, more goals, higher .ppg, better faceoff percentage, more PK minutes, more PP minutes that has been carrying awful linemates all season.

I'd like to ask you a simple question too. Don't need facts. This one is just an opinion:

RNH and Getzlaf are both UFA next season. Who do you think signs the bigger contract with the longer term? 27 year old RNH or 35 year old Getzlaf?

The reason I ask is because GM's are the ones handing out the contracts...

Bonus simple question: For fun. Let's pretend they are both UFA this July 1st. Same question. 5 months from now.. who's gettting the bigger contract and term from the GM's as a free agent?

 

[GoldenSeal]

Ryan is a Duck for life. Loyal to the franchise whose been loyal to him. Close the thread.

 

[bert]

If the Oilers traded some salary back and the Ducks retained some of Getzlaf’s, you could move Drai back up to the top line and have Getzlaf with Nuge and Yamamoto. Would be a great add imo.

Pretty simple to see how it would work and be a great fit for that team. Unbelievable veteran leadership and experience while loading up the first line and giving more depth.

 

[dracom]

This is literally what you typed above:

In 2020... Getzlaf would be a better playoff player than RNH

I've said multiple times Getzlaf would be a better option for a team to pick for a playoff run.

Depends on their age. Guys without more playoff experience are also older than guys without it. Connor McDavid has almost no playoff experience.. heading into the playoffs I'll take him over every single player in the NHL.

No, age does not matter. This thought experiement is concerning one playoff season. Age does not matter, experience matters. Age would matter if the player we are talking about quality of play has dropped, then yes it would matter. But Getzlaf's play has not dropped. He and RNH quality of play are fairly similar at this point; Getz being a better playmaker imo. With that in mind, his experience in the playoffs gives him an edge over RNH for a majority of teams.

I'm waiting for stats on this one (better at even strength).
RNH has better faceoff stats this year (I've shown that above)
RNH faces brutal competition with brutal linemates (prior to the last 8 games where he got Drai and Yam)

The stats you posted show this...
RNH has 17 Even strength points, playing against easier competition. Whereas Getzlaf has 27 even strength points playing against teams toughest competition. Getzlaf has won 345 Faceoffs, RNH has won 192. The FO% is less than 1% but Getz has literally won more, he is better.

Or the Olympics. However, you gotta get the on your team before the playoffs. FTR... I'm happy to talk about a non cap world because it makes zero sense in one with a cap.

This entire conversation is based on the idea that you get either Getzlaf or RNH on your team for a playoff run. Finding cap space to get either one of them on a team isn't relevant here. But if it was, a team who is interested in one of these players for a playoff run would find space for them.

He has 0 points... Getzlaf has 2.

Thanks, then based off their history Getzlaf is already a better playoff preformer than RNH.

That would be a dumb argument from me. Keep in mind I'm not trying to insult you... I'm giving you stats and facts.

Crosby is 2 years younger than Getzlaf.
Crosby had 100 points last year.
Crosby has 22 points in the last 2 playoffs combined.


To be clear, we can't afford any player for 8 million a year. But, if I had to choose between 32 year old Crosby and 34 year old Getzlaf for the same cap hit (give or take 500k)... I'm taking Crosby. Yes I'd take Crosby over RNH as well. I"m not sure what the point was?

The point is age does not always matter when it comes to a players abilities. Being younger doesn't mean they are gonna better than older player. Especially when it comes to the playoffs when teams have shown they would rather have the older more experienced playoff player over the younger inexperienced player.[/QUOTE]

 

[Czechboy]

I've said multiple times Getzlaf would be a better option for a team to pick for a playoff run.



No, age does not matter. This thought experiement is concerning one playoff season. Age does not matter, experience matters. Age would matter if the player we are talking about quality of play has dropped, then yes it would matter. But Getzlaf's play has not dropped. He and RNH quality of play are fairly similar at this point; Getz being a better playmaker imo. With that in mind, his experience in the playoffs gives him an edge over RNH for a majority of teams.


The stats you posted show this...
RNH has 17 Even strength points, playing against easier competition. Whereas Getzlaf has 27 even strength points playing against teams toughest competition. Getzlaf has won 345 Faceoffs, RNH has won 192. The FO% is less than 1% but Getz has literally won more, he is better.



This entire conversation is based on the idea that you get either Getzlaf or RNH on your team for a playoff run. Finding cap space to get either one of them on a team isn't relevant here. But if it was, a team who is interested in one of these players for a playoff run would find space for them.




Thanks, then based off their history Getzlaf is already a better playoff preformer than RNH.




The point is age does not always matter when it comes to a players abilities. Being younger doesn't mean they are gonna better than older player. Especially when it comes to the playoffs when teams have shown they would rather have the older more experienced playoff player over the younger inexperienced player.

[/QUOTE]
Again, I'm happy to disagree..

2 of your arguments are based on
1. age doesn't matter. It absolutely does.
2. cap doesn't matter. It absolutely does.

You did say they are about equal now. Good, we agree on something.lol I think we agree that 26 year old Getzlaf is also much better than current 26 year old RNH. So there is 2 things. One will be HOF and one won't. Still, 8 years is 8 years. Neat fact: Jagr was still in the NHL during Getzlaf's last good playoff run. 46 points. Age matters.

You say that teams prefer older and more experienced players over younger inexperienced players.

I'm confused... are you calling 26 year old RNH inexperienced? Or are you referring to the 19 year old rookies? I'd consider RNH in the peak of his career.

In either case, which team is preferrring older vets over younger players? The teams I consider to be the biggest contenders all have pretty young lineups and their core are all young.

Anaheim is in a rebuild and I'm positive they'll be trying to build around their young core and not adding guys that make 8 million a year that are in their mid 30's.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Can this thread be locked yet?

 

[Czechboy]

Thanks, then based off their history Getzlaf is already a better playoff preformer than RNH.

Your welcome...
Just confirming. If (big IF) the Oil make the playoffs and Anaheim doesn't and RNH gets 3 points in round 1 before my Oil get eliminated.

That would give RNH 3 points in the last 3 playoffs and Getzlaf 2 points in the last 3 playoffs. Would that mean RNH is now a better playoff better? Seems silly, doesn't it?

 

[Jumptheshark]

take a look at his contract for next year 8.25? the oilers have other holes fill