German Football Part III
- Thread starter bluesfan94
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TheMoreYouKnow
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Jogi has always had weird biases. Like I legit believe he favors players based/developed in B-W over others. Then of course he doesn't like players that are known to be opinionated and individualistic.
Kruse was banished for what the poker money incident? But also probably for not being a conformist in general. Meanwhile Grosskreutz got away with a ton of stuff because he was also the kind of simpleton jokester that is good in the locker room and won't complain about being 3rd choice.
Anyway, I think this tournament will not be very good for the same reason the 2016 tournament wasn't great. Jogi doesn't know his best team and the guys he could always rely on are gone. We don't have a guy as good as Lahm, we still don't have a real successor to Klose - even though Klose as we know wasn't exactly a supremely gifted player, the proposed solution in central midfield seems to shift all the time. We'll see how it goes, maybe it will sort itself out.
Kruse was banished for what the poker money incident? But also probably for not being a conformist in general. Meanwhile Grosskreutz got away with a ton of stuff because he was also the kind of simpleton jokester that is good in the locker room and won't complain about being 3rd choice.
Anyway, I think this tournament will not be very good for the same reason the 2016 tournament wasn't great. Jogi doesn't know his best team and the guys he could always rely on are gone. We don't have a guy as good as Lahm, we still don't have a real successor to Klose - even though Klose as we know wasn't exactly a supremely gifted player, the proposed solution in central midfield seems to shift all the time. We'll see how it goes, maybe it will sort itself out.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Flukey EC winners who rode their luck hard, aren't exactly unheard of: *cough* Greece 2004 & Portugal 2016 *cough*. Those teams didn't just grind out tough wins like most champions have to; they saw opponents fall apart in front of them, or teams that would've wiped the floor with them, stumble before running into them.
My gripes aren't that we lost to France since they were our biggest threat and deserved to beat us on that day, or that we only lost because we just didn't finish our chances as that's our own fault for not bringing Kruse or Stindl and for Jogi refusing to accept that Müller's magic doesn't work at the euros, only the WC. My gripe is that Jogi's mistakes down roster, meant that when injuries & suspensions hit us for our toughest game of the tourney, we were stuck playing guys that undermined our chances of victory and left France with the weaknesses that they ended up exploiting.
And if we had gotten past France in that semi we would've been golden. As they were (by far) our biggest threat and portugal would've presented us with a less talented version of same challenge that the French did...only from a team whose heads, we are in.
...plus I just can't help but tease Evilo whenever presented the opportunity
Deficient Mode
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To quote you: "you deserve a hug."
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Technically they've won 2 of 3 tourneys in 3 years...though they only one won major tourney...but that's why Jogi costing us the France match is so painful. We've had Portugal's number since Figo still played for them and the Ronaldo generation has never beaten us in a competitive match; plus they played the same way France did against us, only with less talent.
So if Jogi hadn't f***ed up two years ago, we probably would be going for our third straight major in Russia, and 4th senior title in 4 years
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True, but I'm not sure if that's decisive. The 1970s/1980s Brazil team with Sócrates, Zico & co. won nothing, and still it is one of the greatest and most dominant teams in the history of the game.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Or that time when Ozil fought on, instead of just going down when obviously fouled in the box. Which would've given us a penalty, with the score 0-0, right before halftime of that 2010 semifinal. If the refs make the right call there and we can just sit back & counter for a whole half, Spain's run ends at 1 to.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Oh god yes. It's the same reason why I know Kramer won't ever play for the NT under Jogi either. Though he's a great team-mate, a real warrior, and a very skillful 8; he's far too eloquent & outspoken for Jogi.
Disagree with your final paragraph's assertions about the roster, since this is quite clearly the best roster we've put together this millennium even if Jogi wastes spots on Khedira & Gomez...but I'm not sure I'm up for diving into that with you yet again
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
@Duchene2MacKinnon
Our only tournament loss in the past 5 years was the SF to France. Our record in competitive matches since the start of the Brazil cycle is 40 wins, 5 draws & 3 losses...one of those losses coming in the penultimate matchday of euro-qualifying; after we had already secured qualification for ourselves, but when the irish were still fighting for their lives. And three of those draws came in the group stages of tourneys that we advanced as group winners in.
So that SF literally is the difference between where we are now & the German NT heading to Russia nipping at the heels of Spain 2008-2012
If something happens to Werner before rosters are set we'll have to call on Uth since Stindl is injured. Gomez/Petersen would just be brought along to sit on the bench & play in the 3rd group stage game.
Our only tournament loss in the past 5 years was the SF to France. Our record in competitive matches since the start of the Brazil cycle is 40 wins, 5 draws & 3 losses...one of those losses coming in the penultimate matchday of euro-qualifying; after we had already secured qualification for ourselves, but when the irish were still fighting for their lives. And three of those draws came in the group stages of tourneys that we advanced as group winners in.
So that SF literally is the difference between where we are now & the German NT heading to Russia nipping at the heels of Spain 2008-2012
If something happens to Werner before rosters are set we'll have to call on Uth since Stindl is injured. Gomez/Petersen would just be brought along to sit on the bench & play in the 3rd group stage game.
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
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Thanks, losing 3 straight to the Germans does that to you. I see no way in beating them if Argentina manages to get past Spain. Hell they might be better off being 2nd in the group and facing the likes of Portugal, Brasil and France.
Technically they've won 2 of 3 tourneys in 3 years...though they only one won major tourney...but that's why Jogi costing us the France match is so painful. We've had Portugal's number since Figo still played for them and the Ronaldo generation has never beaten us in a competitive match; plus they played the same way France did against us, only with less talent.
So if Jogi hadn't ****ed up two years ago, we probably would be going for our third straight major in Russia, and 4th senior title in 4 years
Yup, and if HIguain didn't f*** up I'd be posting this with 3 stars on my chest... but here we are.
That's cool if you want to crown them go ahead but they have a lot more proving to do...
@Duchene2MacKinnon
Our only tournament loss in the past 5 years was the SF to France. Our record in competitive matches since the start of the Brazil cycle is 40 wins, 5 draws & 3 losses...one of those losses coming in the penultimate matchday of euro-qualifying; after we had already secured qualification for ourselves, but when the irish were still fighting for their lives. And three of those draws came in the group stages of tourneys that we advanced as group winners in.
So that SF literally is the difference between where we are now & the German NT heading to Russia nipping at the heels of Spain 2008-2012
.
Argentina since 2014 have also only lost 1 match in tournaments... hell in the finals they only conceded one f*** goal. Guess how many trophies they won in the span? and they are considered complete and utter failures.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
I don’t disagree that what actually happened matters more than what could have happened; which is why I’m not arguing that our NTs resume is right there with Spain 2008-12 or with West Germany 72-76. Just that we’re not that far off & would have been right on the trail of those giants heading to Russia, if Jogi had not screwed up when picking his squad two summers ago.
...which is more frustrating for me than a player just not finishing a golden opportunity, or even a ref making a game deciding error; i.e. 2012 and even 2010 were a lot easier for me to get over than 2016. I have to guess because that defeat was entirely within the coach’s control. There was no element of chance involved with not picking a squad that could keep rolling despite injuries / suspensions / Müller’s-powers-only-working-at-the-World-Cup; the way there was with Higuain doing what he do, or with Mesut not getting that penalty in South Africa, or with Gomez pulling a Higuain against Italy in 2012.
There was absolutely no reason for Can to be on that pitch when Kramer, Dahoud & Weigl were perfectly healthy at home, and there was no reason for us to keep feeding Müller n Schürrle chances to squander when Kruse, Stindl & Brandt we’re all fit for that tourney. So it’s more annoying than if we had thrown everything we could at them & still come up short.
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Yup, my point. And you test your luck with having someone who can't run play as a 6.
Blanc's a nobody only remembered for Barthez kisses, but Desailly and Hyypiä are twins. Desailly was in need of rest during their training camp in Finland right before the tournament, so they called in Hyypiä to act his part temporarily. He even wore Desailly's shirt playing for France in a friendly.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Can't run play? I think we might be having a linguistic disconnect here because that feels like an odd criticism of Kroos...given that his ability to dictate play as the pendulum of our possession game, is the whole reason why the last DDR-star has been such an important figure for the NT. He may not be able to run, but he can run the play like a proper maestro.
He's a 6 in the mold of Pirlo, not Makelele...which is why it's a good idea for us to play a back three behind him, or to shield him with plenty of numbers in the central areas further forward, or both. But he's the one who should be dropping back deepest to recycle the ball with the backs while others push forward, the most often.
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cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Gotcha and it’s a concern. But that’s part of why I am such a proponent of the NT playing a back 3...so that even when we do get sloppy and allow a team to counter, Toni getting left in their dust won’t leave us without numbers back. We’ve got the benefit of some spectacular CB & GKing talent behind Toni if we roll with Sule or Vogt next to Boateng & Hummels...which, combined with our possession game (when there’s no liabilities like Can to get taken advantage of), means we can afford to have an immobile maestro like Kroos between a back three and the other midfielders; at least until our more mobile kids force him out of the side.
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koyvoo
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- Nov 8, 2014
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Couple of points.
-Laurent Blanc was a beast. Rock steady. Throughout that generation, he easily kept very good CBs like Candela and Leboeuf on the bench.
-nobody’s Italy dominated possession really. And you could argue that traditionally, they never got many positive results when you consider that more often than not, a draw has been forever safe bet when they play, their historical successes not withstanding.
-Laurent Blanc was a beast. Rock steady. Throughout that generation, he easily kept very good CBs like Candela and Leboeuf on the bench.
-nobody’s Italy dominated possession really. And you could argue that traditionally, they never got many positive results when you consider that more often than not, a draw has been forever safe bet when they play, their historical successes not withstanding.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
I don't see the point of playing him ahead of someone else. What makes him special is his ability to recycle the ball with the backline & to dictate play from deep. Pushing him forward just gives him less time & space in which to pull the strings, and highlights that his immobility prevents him from taking guys on or weaving through a crowd.
That's why I'm with you on using him as part of a double-8 with a B2Ber like Kramer or Gundogan, someone who will push forward and support the attackers, so Toni can fall back & cycle the ball with the defenders; but I would play him behind two 8/10s before I played him in front of a more tradition 6...as that would start to clog the deeper areas for your build up and it would take away an option further forward through which to flow through.
Fair enough on the back 3. I just love all of the passing triangles it allows you to create in the early phases of your build-up play...especially as a means of retaliation against modern pressing schemes...plus I love that it inherently protects you better from counters; that finding Wingbacks is easier than Fullbacks; and that it makes it easier to overload the center of the pitch & half-spaces, without sacrificing all width.
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Bon Esprit
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cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
I love to see that ambition from them. I was worried that they would be content with his first two seasons on the whole & wouldn't have the courage to replace Hasenhuttl until he had had another season to prove that he can not organizer possession.
Tim Wiese in trouble after parking his Lamborghini in a place reserved for people with disabilities and fighting with a 91-year-old about it:
Lamborghini auf Behindertenparkplatz: Polizei ermittelt gegen Tim Wiese nach Streit mit 91-Jährigem
Lamborghini auf Behindertenparkplatz: Polizei ermittelt gegen Tim Wiese nach Streit mit 91-Jährigem
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