GDT: October 30 | Atl-Slv | SKA-Lev | Spk-Sib | Dnb-Amr | DMn-MNk | Mdv-Adm

[obskyr]

So what are you talking about, obskyr? Semantics much? I'm sayng that out of the top 6 teams in the West standings, 4 of them for most of the season have been non-Russian teams. That's 4 out of top 6. You can twist it around any way you like, but those are the facts. I'm hoping for Atlant & Severstal losses tomorrow to drive home the point.

What are you talking about? Top 6 doesn't bear any particular meaning, it's neither the number of playoff teams, nor the number of top seeded playoff teams. And it has never been the number of clear leaders in the Western conference. You picked them simply because currently 4 out of 6 first teams in the conference standings are non-Russian.

Which wasn't the case most of the season either. The most frequent top 6 teams of this September were SKA, Dynamo, DRiga, followed by CSKA, Lev and Spartak competing for the next three spots. That stuation changed only in October, when Donbass and Medvescak were on a roll, while CSKA was swept by injuries, so 3-4 teams among the first six in the West in October were non-Russian. What didn't change in October is the fact that there are only 2 big contenders and 2 outsiders in the West. Other 10 western teams, except for Riga, are all in shaky positions that can be drastically changed with evey new loss. And with Atlant getting back on track, Loko hiring PIV for their senior team and Medvascak finding luck on home ice, the future playoff table became even more uncertain.

 

[Faterson]

Not sure what your wordy expostulations were meant to convey, but the fact remains: non-Russian teams have been in the forefront of the Western Conference from the very start this season, so that there is every reason to believe they will also fare well in the play-offs, not merely advance to the play-offs.

In other words: it would be totally justified to create a separate division for western-most KHL teams, guaranteeing 3 play-off spots for that division, which was the original point we were discussing here.

 

[obskyr]

Not sure what your wordy expostulations were meant to convey, but the fact remains: non-Russian teams have been in the forefront of theu Western Conference from the very start this season, so that there is every reason to believe they will also fare well in the play-offs, not merely advance to the play-offs.

Eh, no, they weren't. And that's what I was talking about. But you're free to believe whatever you want, indeed.

 

[Faterson]

Eh, no, they weren't.

If 4 out of 6 or 3 out of 5 leading teams in the Western Conference are consistently non-Russian, that means they've been at the forefront of the Western Conference. You can keep repeating "black is white", but that won't make it so.

It's precisely for attitudes like these that I root against Russian KHL teams in play-offs. It's as if the very idea of non-Russian teams being better than Russian teams were offensive and unimaginable.

So, I hope we can get as many non-Russian teams into the Western play-offs as possible: ideally 6 of them the very next season, and keep it that way.

 

[obskyr]

If 4 out of 6 or 3 out of 5 leading teams in the Western Conference are consistently non-Russian, that means they've been at the forefront of the Western Conference. You can keep repeating "black is white", but that won't make it so.

It's precisely for attitudes like these that I root against Russian KHL teams in play-offs. It's as if the very idea of non-Russian teams being better than Russian teams were offensive and unimaginable.

So, I hope we can get as many non-Russian teams into the Western play-offs as possible: ideally 6 of them the very next season, and keep it that way.

It would make sense if you were talking about the same teams. You just see what you want to see.

I couldn't care less who you root against, I'm a SKA fan, I'm used to people being biased jerks towards my team. Although I'll point out that there are objective reasons for a big part of Russian teams to be the top dogs, they're richer and they always will be. Lokomotiv and CSKA may be getting through serious changes and bad managerial decisions, but if there are teams in the West to challenge its current leaders in the future, it's them, not Lev and Medvescak.

 

[Faterson]

I love it how you take the future for granted! "Always will be...", "never will be..." When Jokerit (and others) may possibly wipe the floor with all the Russian teams the very next season.

More and more reasons to root for perceived underdogs who aren't bursting with complacency and condescension. Starting tonight with Slovan, who I hope will defeat SKA in an upset. Slovan is openly counting on SKA underestimating them as part of their strategy. SKA can't help underestimating them -- they're so full of it.

 

[obskyr]

I love it how you take the future for granted! "Always will be...", "never will be..." When Jokerit (and others) may possibly wipe the floor with all the Russian teams the very next season.

More and more reasons to root for perceived underdogs who aren't bursting with complacency and condescension. Starting tonight with Slovan, who I hope will defeat SKA in an upset. Slovan is openly counting on SKA underestimating them as part of their strategy. SKA can't help underestimating them -- they're so full of it.

Scenario with Gazprom, Rosneft, Rzhd et al. not being able to suport hockey teams would result the end of the KHL or at least immediate budget cuts for most of the non-Russian KHL teams as well. Sometimes people on this board don't seem to realize what kind of a league it is and where it will remain to be in the near future. Still I love to root for the underdogs too and for the foreign ones in particular. It's kinda cool and different, I agree.

 

[Faterson]

OK. What I think is important is to remember that budgets don't skate on the ice and don't score goals. If that was the case, the New York Rangers would have won a dozen Stanley Cups over the last 2 decades, especially in the pre-salary cap era.

While it's correct to say Russian teams are likely favourites to win Gagarin Cup every season, there is no reason why a non-Russian team couldn't win Gagarin Cup as soon as this season.

Let's only think back to Olympic hockey golds for Czechs and Swedes... they were never favourites to win gold against heavy odds-on favourites with all-star line-ups. Or think of the Stanley Cup for teams like the Carolina Hurricanes, Tampa Bay Lightning or LA Kings. They were definitely not expected to go all the way. And their "deep south" location within the NHL is just as exotic as Medveščak's location seems exotic within the KHL today. I for one wouldn't be surprised, based on September and October developments, to see Medveščak go very deep in play-offs this season already.

 

[obskyr]

OK. What I think is important is to remember that budgets don't skate on the ice and don't score goals. If that was the case, the New York Rangers would have won a dozen Stanley Cups over the last 2 decades, especially in the pre-salary cap era.

While it's correct to say Russian teams are likely favourites to win Gagarin Cup every season, there is no reason why a non-Russian team couldn't win Gagarin Cup as soon as this season.

Let's only think back to Olympic hockey golds for Czechs and Swedes... they were never favourites to win gold against heavy odds-on favourites with all-star line-ups. Or think of the Stanley Cup for teams like the Carolina Hurricanes, Tampa Bay Lightning or LA Kings. They were definitely not expected to go all the way. And their "deep south" location within the NHL is just as exotic as MedveÅ¡čak's location seems exotic within the KHL today. I for one wouldn't be surprised, based on September and October developments, to see MedveÅ¡čak go very deep in play-offs this season already.

Not all Russian teams are big guns with big money, most of them aren't. And it's even harder to compete for a poor Russian team, because they're also restricted with the foreign players limit. That makes any Spartak and Avto's sucess no less impressive than Medvescak's. In hockey anything can happen, but the truth is that the pace of the league is set by the big guns and there are no big guns in the KHL except for the Russian ones. The new Russian investors of the Jokerit may try to make them one of the biggies, but the current economic conjecture doesn't really predispose to that.

Swedes and Czechs weren't Olympic favorites with all-star line ups? Who are you trying to fool? They always are. The real (competitive) underdogs at Olympics are Finland, Slovakia, Switzerland, even Belarus.

 

[Faterson]

Swedes and Czechs weren't Olympic favorites with all-star line ups?

Of course they were not, because neither Sweden, nor Czechs have any all-star line-ups available. Only Canada and the US, possibly also Russia can send a true "all-star line-up" to Sochi. And I hope they will all fail to win a medal -- a repeat, or variation, of the Turin Olympics (where Sweden, Finland, and Czechs won medals) would be most welcome in Sochi, to deflate the monumental conceit of "big nation" fans!

 

[obskyr]

Of course they were not, because neither Sweden, nor Czechs have any all-star line-ups available. Only Canada and the US, possibly also Russia can send a true "all-star line-up" to Sochi. And I hope they will all fail to win a medal -- a repeat, or variation, of the Turin Olympics (where Sweden, Finland, and Czechs won medals) would be most welcome in Sochi, to deflate the monumental conceit of "big nation" fans!

Do you you even hockey? The 2006 Swedish roster is full of NHL all-stars. Just because Russia is a big country doesn't mean it's supposed to produce more players than Sweden, or elite players for that matter. And it actually doesn't.

 

[bobbeaver]

Obskyr while i like SKA for the record(i dont look at budgets but how they play and n how they act on the field) Faterson has a point. if the case is as it is now more non russian teams will reach the second round and have a greater chance of getting to the conference finals, and there for more chance to get into khl finals. Currently it doesnt matter how much ska n dynamo is infront, but what is going on in the rear. Is a matter of chance.

And pls obskyr you are makeing mistakes in what u say. how can you say the main stays of the western conference are russian teams n couple of "older" foreign ones when alot of western clubs (Medvescak for one and slovan for example) have been in khl for 1-2 years. And wih Jokerit comeing next year this is all fresh, so who is to say that those clubs wount do more with less, or get ritcher backers?
As for the standing, i dont think things will change much. Riga will be a the top, Donbass will be at the top. and if Medvescak find (not the game, they played very well) scoring n concenration in away games, which i think they will they will stay there up. Lev i think has a good team able to beat everyone. i still dont belive in CSKA or Loko or Sever as teams. CSKA really doesnt play like a team although they ll reach he playoffs ofc. Atlant n Spartak do well n i respect them (even though i dont like Sparak per say) n they might do smtn.

 

[Faterson]

Do you you even hockey?

I beg your pardon?

The 2006 Swedish roster is full of NHL all-stars.

No, it's not. Here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:2006_Winter_Olympics_Sweden_men's_ice_hockey_team_roster

That's definitely not "all-star", especially not on defence. All Swedish stars are there, but not all players there are "all-stars". And by that I mean "NHL Hall of Fame calibre".

The same for Sochi 2014. To me, Sweden, Finland and Czechs are definite Sochi underdogs, that's why I want them to win medals. The only Sochi favorites are Canada, US and Russia. Everyone else are super-underdogs, but as you may perhaps remember, Slovakia kicked Russia with its strongest roster out of the Vancouver Olympic tournament. The Canadian and US Sochi rosters are so stacked no one can compete with them in terms of the overall players' calibre, not even Russia. Hell, even a budding NHL super-star like Giroux doesn't have a guaranteed spot on Canada's roster.

Lev i think has a good team able to beat everyone.

Definitely, including in play-offs. They just need to gel together as a team.

 

[Latgale_fan]

Swedes and Czechs weren't Olympic favorites with all-star line ups? Who are you trying to fool? They always are. The real (competitive) underdogs at Olympics are Finland, Slovakia, Switzerland, even Belarus.

Are you Russian? Because it seems you clearly do not know what's happening in the hockey world beyond top 7 nations. Belarus won't play in Sochi, it did play in Vancouver though lost to Swiss in 1/8 final and it did not play in Turin too. Last time they were competitive in Olympics was 2002 in Salt Lake, 11 years ago when they got lucky due to shaky Tommy Salo in 1/4 finals...

Currently Belarus would probably rank behind Germany, Norway, Denmark and Latvia in the world hockey.... even more so in U20 or U18 level.

 

[Latgale_fan]

The only Sochi favorites are Canada, US and Russia.

I'd say that considering the games will be played on big ice Sweden might probably be the biggest favorite of all the teams playing them. Then Canada, then Russia and only after that USA... I don't see why would you consider Sweden an underdog compared to the other ''big three''.

As much as I would wish for Russia to win Sochi and KHL to show how good the league is, I'm more inclined to think that like in Vancouver they will **** themselves up and won't even need opponent team's help...

As for non-Russian team winning Gagarin's Cup, Barys, Lev and Donbass can easily have Moscow Dynamo level budget and with the right players and coaching win it. Other teams, due to budgetary reasons, are a bigger stretch but there's no reason why Medvescak and Riga couldn't be in play-offs after this season. If we count sure play-off teams like SKA, MD, CSKA, LEV and Donbass (have advantage over others already and similar budget), then add Riga that is now 12 points ahead of Atlant (9th in West) with one game in reserve, it's not a stretch to imagine Atlant or Lokomotiv not making it.... Lokomotiv isn't far behind the play-off spot but when I look at their roster I don't particularly well see who's gonna pull them surely into play-offs. I can still see Omsk in East in play-offs (though not making it would be the greatest upset in Russian hockey ever IMHO) because talent and budget wise they are far ahead of Admiral or Avto, but Loko...?

Riga might fall off, surely can lose 3rd or 4th place in the West, but at the moment I'd say highly unlikely that they will lose the play-off spot. Also fun fact about Riga, we have played all of our conference teams now and in all 13 games we haven't lost a single one in regulation, we have scored points vs West in every game.

Riga vs West 14 games played (CSKA twice)

point difference 34-8
goal difference 42-23

SKA, CSKA and Lev managed 2 points at home, Atlant 1 at home, Moscow Dynamo 1 away

 

[alce*]

I'd say that considering the games will be played on big ice Sweden might probably be the biggest favorite of all the teams playing them. Then Canada, then Russia and only after that USA... I don't see why would you consider Sweden an underdog compared to the other ''big three''.

It's really strange to think of Sweden as underdogs. Russia and Sweden are two clear contenders for Olympic gold. Then goes Canada that always struggle outside NA, but have excellent team. Then Czech and Finland. And only then USA that sucks in Europe.

 

[bobbeaver]

dont forget the slovaks. Switzerland was amasing lately aswell. that one is an underdog

 

[Coramoor]

The americans rode an amazing Miller in 2010, I don't see why they are being talked about as highly as Canada, Russia or Sweden

 

[Faterson]

Erm... the US suck in Europe? Please think of the most recent World Championships, particularly the US vs. Russia game. I also painfully remember how the US stole bronze medals from Slovakia at the WC in Prague. And this year's WC team was third-rate compared to what they will field in Sochi. The WC US squad captain and the WC's 2nd best scorer Paul Å ťastný doesn't even have a guaranteed roster spot for Sochi! That's how stacked the US squad will be.

 

[alce*]

Erm... the US suck in Europe? Please think of the most recent World Championships, particularly the US vs. Russia game. I also painfully remember how the US stole bronze medals from Slovakia at the WC in Prague. And this year's WC team was third-rate compared to what they will field in Sochi. The WC US squad captain and the WC's 2nd best scorer Paul Šťastný doesn't even have a guaranteed roster spot for Sochi! That's how stacked the US squad will be.

I wouldn't even start discussion about such nonsense. Comparison of Worlds and Olympics is just completely insane.

 

[obskyr]

Are you Russian? Because it seems you clearly do not know what's happening in the hockey world beyond top 7 nations. Belarus won't play in Sochi, it did play in Vancouver though lost to Swiss in 1/8 final and it did not play in Turin too. Last time they were competitive in Olympics was 2002 in Salt Lake, 11 years ago when they got lucky due to shaky Tommy Salo in 1/4 finals...

Currently Belarus would probably rank behind Germany, Norway, Denmark and Latvia in the world hockey.... even more so in U20 or U18 level.

Eh, I'm well aware of that and I'm not banned in Google either. I was referring to them kicking Swedes out in 2002, which is one of the biggest underdog stories in history of Olympic hockey.

 

[Faterson]

Comparison of Worlds and Olympics is just completely insane.

No, it's not. If a 3rd-rate US team was able to thrash Russia with several superstars in Russian line-up, that indicates something about the US team's ability to play in Europe.

Otherwise, you have no basis to talk about US teams in Europe at all. Before 1998, professionals were not allowed in Olympics. Since 1998, only one Olympic tournament took place in Europe, so that's no basis to judge US play in Europe.

I would definitely bet on the US beating Russians in Sochi. No doubt for me! The Russians may well self-destruct like at that St. Petersburg World Championships in the early 2000s where they even failed to reach the play-offs. (Not possible in Sochi, so they might exit in the first play-off game.) Russians are weak psychologically and in terms of team-work. Americans, the exact opposite.

Even so, I'll be rooting for "small nation" teams and don't care about US, Russia or Canada. Deflating those 3 teams' egos would be a great thing for world hockey.

 

[alce*]

 

[Faterson]

Yup... I believe that gesture is a pretty realistic prediction for Russia's team in Sochi. I wouldn't be surprised by Russia advancing straight to the 2nd play-off round by winning its group or finishing second... everyone will succumb to euphoria... and then Russia might lose the very first play-off game, unable to withstand the psychological pressure.

That's pretty likely to happen, by all appearances.

 

[alce*]

Yup... I believe that gesture is a pretty realistic prediction for Russia's team in Sochi. I wouldn't be surprised by Russia advancing straight to the 2nd play-off round by winning its group or finishing second... everyone will succumb to euphoria... and then Russia might lose the very first play-off game, unable to withstand the psychological pressure.

That's pretty likely to happen, by all appearances.

Dream on, buddy. Dream on. At least I can expect my team will win Olympics. If not this time then some other time. Unlike your team that will not win even once in next hundred of years.