GCT: Neuvirth vs Enroth
- Thread starter NotABadPeriod
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Zman5778
Moderator
There isn't much of a competition, really. Neuvirth has pretty handily outplayed Jhonas.
DazedandConfused
thanks tips
Not to overblow his play up to date, but remember when everbody hated trading for little Neuvirth. What terrible asset management.
The only reason this is a competition at this point is because Jhonas has been here a long time. Neuvirth has shown legit starting capabilities in most of his games. I think we well ride him at some point if he is in our longer term plans. We need to find out if he can be consistent now.
Clock
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- May 13, 2006
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Gotta acknowledge that it could just be a hot streak for Neuvirth or a cold streak for Enroth or both. Time will tell.
Everyone? I Liked the move as you can see if you looked at my posts, as did many others. A few posters were pretty dramatic about it though.
Goaltenders take for ever, Neuvirth was highly regarded and has always had the talent. Maybe now he is just putting it together.
DazedandConfused
thanks tips
Obviously some saw the intent behind the trade and liked the move. That's just poor word choice on my part, but if I recall over half were up in arms over the deal.
Kudos to you though kid.
NEcoli
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NEcoli
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Jesus. Odds are a 3rd round pick never even sees the ice in the NHL.
Not to mention the Sabres have no shortage of draft picks.
Jacob582
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30 Thoughts:
Elliotte Friedman November 15, 2014, 1:55 PM
Elliotte Friedman November 15, 2014, 1:55 PM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts/
I think Neuvirth has low- to mid-end starter potential. I do not think Enroth is a starter. That said, Neuvirth's durability is becoming a real concern. I'd be perfectly fine if they decide to proceed with neither of them.
The 2015 UFA goaltender class is pretty putrid, so this would have to be by trade. We know Tim loves Lehner--I'm a fan, as well, and despite some inconsistency he's only 23 and fulfills Tim's known criteria of "big, athletic, and European." Who else? Eddie Lack, I suppose, if Vancouver believes in Markstrom as a backup and they think Thatcher Demko could be ready to step in when Miller's deal is up. Martin Jones? Petr Mrazek?
The 2015 UFA goaltender class is pretty putrid, so this would have to be by trade. We know Tim loves Lehner--I'm a fan, as well, and despite some inconsistency he's only 23 and fulfills Tim's known criteria of "big, athletic, and European." Who else? Eddie Lack, I suppose, if Vancouver believes in Markstrom as a backup and they think Thatcher Demko could be ready to step in when Miller's deal is up. Martin Jones? Petr Mrazek?
Sabre the Win
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Probably throw Lieuwen in net to seal the tank. I'm a huge Makarov fan and believe he will be a starter one day. I would like to see him being Rochester starting goalie bringing them to the Calder.
I think the gist of what Friedman was saying is that the Sabres may be looking outside the organization for a mid- or longer-term goaltending option. I think Makarov is too inconsistent. He's usually great or terrible, with not much in between. Lieuwen is usually steady if unspectacular, but he's fallen off the wagon the past month--one has to think that a lot of it is mental right now. Ullmark has taken a step back, as well.
Even if all those guys get their form back, I'm sure Murray wants a guy for the near- or mid-term while those three continue developing. I know Murray really likes Neuvirth, but he's well on his way to earning the scarlet "injury-prone" label.
I'd like to see them sign 2 guys. I don't actually care whether it's Neuvirth and/or Enroth, or signing someone who fits Murray's "style"...While continuing to develop prospects until someone TAKES the job. It's too hard to project goalies (how's your Lieuwen projection looking right now?).
I'd sign Devan Dubnyk as a short terms (2 year) solution. He's a big goalie, who put up "Ryan Miller" numbers on some terrible Edmonton teams. Yea, his game fell apart under the weight of the awful play in front of him.
I'd also look at Anti Niemi as a more long term solution, he's only 31... and there's not a lot of starting jobs available. Would he take 4 yrs / 20 million?
About as well as everyone's Ullmark prognostications that he's going to be our Cup-winning goaltender. Lieuwen's had a bad month, just as Makarov had a bad Traverse City/preseason. I think he'll get past it.
Meh. I think Dubnyk would be more of a placeholder. I was thinking more along the lines of a guy who could grow into something more. If my alternative was Dubnyk, I think I'd rather just hold on to Neuvirth and hope he can shake the injury bug.
Niemi is more along the lines of what I think Murray would want if he couldn't get an up-and-comer like Jones or Lehner. I'd be inclined to say that Niemi would sign a deal like that. The UFA market won't be great for goaltenders as there are only so many openings available.
Ruckus007
where to?
I was revving up a response to you in the roster thread about goalies but I guess this is a good place to respond too (maybe both posts get moved anyway)?
In your projected rosters you commit about $7-8M to goaltenders and I'm just not that optimistic that the Sabres could actually do that and still get a desired outcome.
I've obviously thought about Niemi as a UFA option as well and thought I don't know about salaries in specific, I'm not sure the Sabres could get him with both low term and high annual salary and have a roster spot attractive enough for a ~$2.5M-ish backup that probably wouldn't get much playing time. Niemi/Neuvirth (my idea) or Niemi/Dubnyk (yours) might fill the salary requirements but it presents the possibility that that is your combo when the team is good again and I don't believe either are would be an asset on the next good team.
For me, ideally, the starting goaltender on the next good team would be 1.) good, 2.) cheap(ish) and 3. young(ish) (a function of #2). The only internal options that would fit that timeline aren't having good season but I'd like to have a spot available next year in the best-case-scenario that one of Ullmark/Hackett/Lieuwen/Makarov develops NHL competency between now and then.
For me, ideally, the goaltending combo next season would consist of a Neuvirth-type vet starter, a disposable Dan Ellis-type vet backup that can be discarded as necessary if a young player elevates. That isn't a very expensive combo though and it then becomes a factor in... you know what.
If Niemi takes the Ryan Miller contract (3/$18M) then all is moot, IMO. But I'm not sure 3 years would be attractive to him with the Sabres transitioning back into competitiveness and I don't want to go longer.
And, IMO, the fact that the Sabres had to go 3 years on Gionta and McCormick suggests to me that players aren't interested in wasting their time on a transitional team.
EDIT: This is also why I'm fully onboard with addressing external options with a Bishop-type trade at any point along the way if the opportunity presents itself. But that also presents the issue of salary cost and roster makeup next year.
EDIT: For the GCT at hand, I have very similar feelings towards either player and I'm fine with resigning both, resigning neither, or only resigning one, though the book on Enroth dissuades me a bit from him.
phosphene*
Registered User
Neuvirth is good enough to keep us competitive. Still not really sold on Jonas, given his physical limitations. Goaltending is really the last thing I'm concerned with. There should be several decent goalies available by the time we're serious playoff contenders. I'm thinking Jones from LA or Gibson from Anaheim, particularly.
you won't see me prognosticating on young goaltenders, certainly not trying to find truth in the history of AHL Rookie goaltenders...
that's exactly what a 2 year contract implies
I think Murray will be smart to understand that now is not the time to find an up and comer to bank on, when he's going to subjected to a few years of terrible play in front of him.
What's the desired outcome?
I don't intend to have them under contract at that time...
I'm not interested in throwing any young goaltender that we have intentions of being part of the future into the fire
For me, ideally, the goaltending combo next season would consist of a Neuvirth-type vet starter, a disposable Dan Ellis-type vet backup that can be discarded as necessary if a young player elevates. That isn't a very expensive combo though and it then becomes a factor in... you know what.
I think we are another season or 2 away from this scenario.
fair enough... i could live with a cup winning goalie in his mid 30s as we transition from rebuild to contender.
i agree
If there is a Lehner trade that's out there... count me in if i can get him for Conacher and a 2nd. I juist don't think it's the priority this offseason (finding the goalie of the future). And I don't believe in investing valuable assets into a position that I think is very easy to fill IF the rebuild is a success
I'd rather pour some cap space into a vet or 2, and work on building and developing the roster. A goalie will emerge someday, or we'll have a stacked roster/pipeline from which to trade from
yea, Id be fine with Neuvirth/Dubnyk type combo for another year or 2.... Gustavson would be adequate in a similar manner.
Ruckus007
where to?
Some comments regrouped to match with their responses
Help get the payroll up to the necessary level, right? I'm assuming you didn't just imagine the numbers you posted in the other thread.
Maybe. A 4 year deal this offseason, IMO, runs somewhere into the beginning of the competitive window. Niemi's really the only external UFA I'm the least bit interested in pursuing but I'm not interested in having him in his mid 30's on more than one playoff-bound Sabres team. So I'm willing to go 3 years but if he were to want more, I'd rather go the cheaper option.
Maybe you misinterpret what I mean when I say best case scenario. By that I mean in 12-14 months time <insert your favorite goalie prospect> has shown to be graduated from AHL duty and ready for NHL backup/platoon duty en route to hopefully going all the way being a legitimate contributor. It's my idea of a best case scenario with the goalies currently in the organization so it's admittedly remote and I think it's just as likely that, of the 6 goalies currently under contract with the Sabres, only two will still be in the organization next year. However for me it's significant enough to at least be prepared for.
This obviously ties into the previous comment about my best case scenario for internal goalie candidates, because you could substitute in Lehner or similar.
IMO, last year and this should divorce anyone of the notion that good goaltending is an impediment to tanking and they are going to have to start transitioning upward next year anyway. Since I don't have confidence in the internal options as a long term answer, any drafted prospects will probably to too far away to legitimately project onto the next competitive team(s) and acquiring an external candidate this season isn't going to affect any other plans for this year, I see no reason not to peruse the trade market this year.
To me finding that goaltender is a priority in that I don't think that goaltender is in the organization. And it's timeframe independent so whether that player is acquired this March, this summer or in a year or two. Heck, if we use Ben Bishop as an example of the strategy working then we need only look to Anders Lindback as an example of it not working the first time so I don't have the faith that this is an issue that will resolve itself.
Help get the payroll up to the necessary level, right? I'm assuming you didn't just imagine the numbers you posted in the other thread.
Maybe. A 4 year deal this offseason, IMO, runs somewhere into the beginning of the competitive window. Niemi's really the only external UFA I'm the least bit interested in pursuing but I'm not interested in having him in his mid 30's on more than one playoff-bound Sabres team. So I'm willing to go 3 years but if he were to want more, I'd rather go the cheaper option.
Maybe you misinterpret what I mean when I say best case scenario. By that I mean in 12-14 months time <insert your favorite goalie prospect> has shown to be graduated from AHL duty and ready for NHL backup/platoon duty en route to hopefully going all the way being a legitimate contributor. It's my idea of a best case scenario with the goalies currently in the organization so it's admittedly remote and I think it's just as likely that, of the 6 goalies currently under contract with the Sabres, only two will still be in the organization next year. However for me it's significant enough to at least be prepared for.
This obviously ties into the previous comment about my best case scenario for internal goalie candidates, because you could substitute in Lehner or similar.
IMO, last year and this should divorce anyone of the notion that good goaltending is an impediment to tanking and they are going to have to start transitioning upward next year anyway. Since I don't have confidence in the internal options as a long term answer, any drafted prospects will probably to too far away to legitimately project onto the next competitive team(s) and acquiring an external candidate this season isn't going to affect any other plans for this year, I see no reason not to peruse the trade market this year.
To me finding that goaltender is a priority in that I don't think that goaltender is in the organization. And it's timeframe independent so whether that player is acquired this March, this summer or in a year or two. Heck, if we use Ben Bishop as an example of the strategy working then we need only look to Anders Lindback as an example of it not working the first time so I don't have the faith that this is an issue that will resolve itself.
