Post-Game Talk: Game X Pens win vs Sharks: Bunch of Negative Nancy’s

[SEALBound]

It’s great to see them kick the shit out of a bad team they should be beating, but it’s really hard to take much away from this game because of how comically bad the Sharks are.

With that being said, the 4th line looked great and Hinostroza is a huge upgrade to that 4th line over Carter. I didn’t understand why he was getting shit thrown at him in the preseason, he brings a lot of speed and forechecking talent plus has a decent bit of skill. He should be an everyday player for this team IMO.

I’m not expecting 2 goals a game from that 4th line, but I’m absolutely expecting Nieto-Acciari-Hinostroza to be at least a solid 4th line going forward.

Nieto, Accari, and Hinostroza all play a similar game - speed and forechecking. Having all three play a similar style, at the very least, should improve the line. With Carter, there's a weird chemistry and the identity of the line is challenge. Not to mention it's like playing with 2.5 guys collectively. Hino in for Carter, you can actually tell this line to go out there with speed and forecheck and hit guys and chip in every now and then. I think we will see that you can treat them a bit higher than "go out there and PLEASE don't get scored on".

Hoping too with all three getting some points that it breaks that funk they were all in.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Dubas must sell high with Jake. Of course he won’t and camp friends for life will remain intact.

 

[wgknestrick]

They sure did. When has this happened last time, in the 60s or something?

Am I the only one who remembers how terrible every expansion team was during their first years? TBL were absolutely terrible AND had a female goalie. Not even sure if this is the worst SJS team as they had one that lost 71 games. 71 games.

 

[Josey Wales]

Going only 2/6 against that horrid sharks team on the power play is a fireable offense alone… Todd needs to be gone two years ago.

YEAH he is in control of what they do

 

[LOGiK]

That was embarrassing from SJ.

Hopefully this boosts the pens.

Getting easy goals and not having to work hard is NEVER a boost for this sullied team.
Fully expect a steam roll loss going the other way next game.

 

[LOGiK]

Smith is on pace for 48 goals. Not bad...James Neal who?

Too bad on pace is the biggest phony stat you could imagine. Only useable in the early part of seasons because projections can be so wild from a tiny hot streak. If there is anything I personally hate about hockey stats more than the 'second assist' it is 'on pace for *'

 

[Zbynek]

Too bad on pace is the biggest phony stat you could imagine. Only useable in the early part of seasons because projections can be so wild from a tiny hot streak. If there is anything I personally hate about hockey stats more than the 'second assist' it is 'on pace for *'

Exactly. Brock McGinn was on pace for 25 goals a year ago at this same time. We all know how that turned out.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Too bad on pace is the biggest phony stat you could imagine. Only useable in the early part of seasons because projections can be so wild from a tiny hot streak. If there is anything I personally hate about hockey stats more than the 'second assist' it is 'on pace for *'

What's wrong with the second assist?

Often times the touch before the primary is every bit as important. Sometimes moreso. If anything I always disliked leagues that only included primaries because it didn't give a completely fair representation of the goal scored.

 

[LOGiK]

Exactly. Brock McGinn was on pace for 25 goals a year ago at this same time. We all know how that turned out.

Rewind to that time and I'm complaining about it then too... only I don't remember with whom and I said I'd eat my shoe and send you the video -would you?- if (whomever it was) scored that many goals... they were totally convinced the player WOULD keep that pace. they never took the bet =P

What's wrong with the second assist?

Often times the touch before the primary is every bit as important. Sometimes moreso. If anything I always disliked leagues that only included primaries because it didn't give a completely fair representation of the goal scored.

Well, mainly that if the 2nd guy was instrumental, why not the third guy, etc? At that point why not everyone who touched it since the last time the opposition had the puck? They should keep the stat but not count it towards points... I don't know... just a weird way to keep point totals. (not being the primary assist).
I don't know if I explained it well, but I mean... it's kind of a why a second if not a third kind of deal? They all contributed / created it yet didn't directly make the actual pass that created the goal.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well, mainly that if the 2nd guy was instrumental, why not the third guy, etc? At that point why not everyone who touched it since the last time the opposition had the puck? They should keep the stat but not count it towards points... I don't know... just a weird way to keep point totals. (not being the primary assist).
I don't know if I explained it well, but I mean... it's kind of a why a second if not a third kind of deal?

Well I mean because you have to impose a limit somewhere. Four plays back in the chain is probably irrelevant enough to the goal scored to not be counted. But there are fairly common situations where a secondary assist is crucial to the goal scored. Such as a center making a terrific play in the NZ to disrupt the breakout, getting the puck to his wing and that player passing it off to the other wing/late D for the goal. Or a point man on the PP making a clutch keep at the line, passing it off to a guy on the half boards then that player either shoots and gets a tip in from whoever is in front or gets it to the guy in the slot etc. The keep was an absolutely fundamental reason that goal was scored. Or if a defenseman breaking the puck out of his own end makes a gorgeous saucer pass through nearly all three zones to create a 2 on 1.

The examples go on and on and happen nearly every single game. Secondary assists are almost always more instrumental than they are cheesy. Though of course there are cheesy ones, too.

EDIT: Though if this is a question of "deserves" then of course there are plenty of cheesy primary assists and even goals, as well. Should EN goals not count on the statline? What about goals that the other team puts in their own net but they credit to the last guy who touched it prior?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Am I the only one who remembers how terrible every expansion team was during their first years? TBL were absolutely terrible AND had a female goalie. Not even sure if this is the worst SJS team as they had one that lost 71 games. 71 games.

Manon Rheaume only played in a pre-season game, got blown up, and didn't make the team. The worst Tampa ever did was have the 38th worst P% in 1999-00.
The worst in history are the 1974-75 Caps, who went 8-67-5.
The 1992-93 Sharks are 3rd, at 11-71-2.

I'm not including this current Sharks side on the list, since it's too early, but if I did they'd be the very worst. They're on pace for 8 points.

 

[LOGiK]

Well I mean because you have to impose a limit somewhere. Four plays back in the chain is probably irrelevant enough to the goal scored to not be counted. But there are fairly common situations where a secondary assist is crucial to the goal scored. Such as a center making a terrific play in the NZ to disrupt the breakout, getting the puck to his wing and that player passing it off to the other wing/late D for the goal. Or a point man on the PP making a clutch keep at the line, passing it off to a guy on the half boards then that player either shoots and gets a tip in from whoever is in front or gets it to the guy in the slot etc. The keep was an absolutely fundamental reason that goal was scored. Or if a defenseman breaking the puck out of his own end makes a gorgeous saucer pass through nearly all three zones to create a 2 on 1.

The examples go on and on and happen nearly every single game. Secondary assists are almost always more instrumental than they are cheesy. Though of course there are cheesy ones, too.

EDIT: Though if this is a question of "deserves" then of course there are plenty of cheesy primary assists and even goals, as well. Should EN goals not count on the statline? What about goals that the other team puts in their own net but they credit to the last guy who touched it prior?

Even just reading the first part makes me wonder...
If that pass, four passes ago didn't happen, the goal wouldn't have happened. (say we know this, let's play god). Then four passes ago no opposing player touches the puck, that is / was integral in the breakout to get the play started.... I donno... it's a subjective argument so nobody will ever be right or wrong. I'm not really arguing, just opinion.

add:
Now that I read the whole post... the edit part is more on the fluky side of goals, besides ENG. You can count eng, but it should also be its own stat line because some players get way more chances for ENG and some get none. Secondary assists are main line stat keeping. Every single goal will most likely have G, A, SA... that is why I address that over the fluky side of points.

Yes, it's a circular issue... what is proper stat keeping. Can go round and round...

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Even just reading the first part makes me wonder...
If that pass, four passes ago didn't happen, the goal wouldn't have happened. (say we know this, let's play god). Then four passes ago no opposing player touches the puck, that is / was integral in the breakout to get the play started.... I donno... it's a subjective argument so nobody will ever be right or wrong. I'm not really arguing, just opinion.

But what is the point? Is it a matter of "deserves" is it just the principle of the matter? Why count assists at all, then, if the goal itself is the ultimate and most critical outcome? As I said there are cheesy primaries and cheesy goals, even.

I think the secondary assist is a perfectly acceptable middle ground between too little and too much credit. I think I see what you're driving at but I know I definitely prefer it over counting just primaries or even worse just the goal, itself.

 

[Turin]

No idea what to think about that last game, except that Hinostroza is the upgrade on Carter everybody including Hartnell's wife knew he would be.

 

[Turin]

Also nice to see EK 2 assists + 5.

Team would be killer if they could replace Rakell with a Hornqvist type and O'Connor with a Sheary type, aside from the PK which would still suck for some reason.

 

[Gurglesons]

Also nice to see EK 2 assists + 5.

Team would be killer if they could replace Rakell with a Hornqvist type and O'Connor with a Sheary type, aside from the PK which would still suck for some reason.

Poulin and Puusy when healthy.

 

[LOGiK]

But what is the point? Is it a matter of "deserves" is it just the principle of the matter? Why count assists at all, then, if the goal itself is the ultimate and most critical outcome? As I said there are cheesy primaries and cheesy goals, even.

I think the secondary assist is a perfectly acceptable middle ground between too little and too much credit. I think I see what you're driving at but I know I definitely prefer it over counting just primaries or even worse just the goal, itself.

Yeah. It doesn't bother me unless I want to over analyze.
Team sports are always difficult where to draw the line.

None of what we mentioned bothers me as much as quarterback passing yards in the nfl. Throw a lateral screen pass and run for a 100 yards the quarterback gets 100 passing yards in his stat.
I've many statistical gripes in sports

 

[Turin]

Poulin and Puusy when healthy.

Those guys can't even do anything at the AHL level right now.

 

[Gurglesons]

Those guys can't even do anything at the AHL level right now.

They are hurt.

 

[Turin]

They are hurt.

They still have a combined 3 points in 12 games

 

[Gurglesons]

They still have a combined 3 points in 12 games

Didn’t realize their careers were defined by 12 games.

Puustinen put up good numbers the last two seasons. Not as good as Sheary did in his 22 and 23 year old seasons, but relative enough.

 

[Josey Wales]

They still have a combined 3 points in 12 games

he is their Agent

 

[Al Smith]

Am I the only one who remembers how terrible every expansion team was during their first years? TBL were absolutely terrible AND had a female goalie. Not even sure if this is the worst SJS team as they had one that lost 71 games. 71 games.

Every expansion team except VGK. Plus, I don't feel like looking, but at least the Blues or maybe some other 67-68 expansion team maybe didn't have a shit record in the 67-68 expansion since nearly half the teams they were playing were also expansion teams.

 

[Turin]

Didn’t realize their careers were defined by 12 games.

Puustinen put up good numbers the last two seasons. Not as good as Sheary did in his 22 and 23 year old seasons, but relative enough.

Well Poulins career had been defined by not playing so far.. and Puustinen is no Sheary. Maybe he gets a call up but not until he actually starts producing.

 

[Rakell67]

Also nice to see EK 2 assists + 5.

Team would be killer if they could replace Rakell with a Hornqvist type and O'Connor with a Sheary type, aside from the PK which would still suck for some reason.

Could trade Rakell for Bertuzzi.