GDT: Game 9 | Columbus @ Dallas | 8 PM EST

[ColumbusTrill]

Is Jiricek not allowed to work on one on one defense or positioning while with the nhl club?

Peeke has played 82 and 80 games the last two seasons. Teams know what he is

You say Jarmo sucked at his job for having bad defenses. Well now he acquired better players and the worse players are pushed out of the lineup. What’s he supposed to do?

There is a difference between a 23 year old with 3 years of KHL experience plus a year of NHL experience and a 20 year and a 19 year who have significant flaws in their games. Jiricek and Sillinger should be in Cleveland. Jiricek needs to work on not being beaten one-on-one (which happens all the time and not just with guys like Hintz) and defensive positioning. Sillinger needs to work on skating. Both should be working in special teams with the Monsters. Marchenko should be on the ice. If Marchenko is not on the ice, why is he here? Are we going to keep around and let his value drop like we are doing with Peeke and Boqvist.

You give credit to Jarmo for Fantilli and Jiricek, and those were high draft picks from seasons when he was trying to win and failed miserably because we had bad defense (before injuries) and bad goalies. I say those are nice consolation prizes from him sucking at his job, and I want a much better GM to come in and develop them. The drafting of Fantilli and Jiricek have nothing to do with Jarmo being some wizard among GMs.

 

[squashmaple]

Is Jiricek not allowed to work on one on one defense or positioning while with the nhl club?

Peeke has played 82 and 80 games the last two seasons. Teams know what he is

You say Jarmo sucked at his job for having bad defenses. Well now he acquired better players and the worse players are pushed out of the lineup. What’s he supposed to do?

He's supposed to wave a magic wand to magically fix everything and then die, obviously.

 

[VT]

There is a difference between a 23 year old with 3 years of KHL experience plus a year of NHL experience and a 20 year and a 19 year who have significant flaws in their games. Jiricek and Sillinger should be in Cleveland. Jiricek needs to work on not being beaten one-on-one (which happens all the time and not just with guys like Hintz) and defensive positioning. Sillinger needs to work on skating. Both should be working in special teams with the Monsters. Marchenko should be on the ice. If Marchenko is not on the ice, why is he here? Are we going to keep around and let his value drop like we are doing with Peeke and Boqvist.

You give credit to Jarmo for Fantilli and Jiricek, and those were high draft picks from seasons when he was trying to win and failed miserably because we had bad defense (before injuries) and bad goalies. I say those are nice consolation prizes from him sucking at his job, and I want a much better GM to come in and develop them. The drafting of Fantilli and Jiricek have nothing to do with Jarmo being some wizard among GMs.

You know, you can find any little thing that you could blame Jarmo for. And if you can't find it, invent it.

The rebuilding has started from the 2021/22 season. Before Torts was a coach, he was a good team, it had a chance to fight for higher places. Do you think that Jarmo should have started trading players? Try to explain to the team that they are trading Panarin and Bobrovsky because they want to leave, even though the team had a chance to advance higher than the second round. And, if you noticed, we mostly lost to future SC champions.

So if we count the real rebuilding, this is the third year, and in the first two seasons many players were injured.

By the way, Jarmo built the base, but, according to you, other GMs should develop it. That is a very "good" idea. Jarmo drafted Werensky, Johnson, Jiříček, Mateychuk and Fantilli in the first rounds, Marchenko and Voronkov in the next round (not counting Chinakhov, Sillinger, Svozil and Texier, for example), Laine and Provorov, in trades Gaudreau was signed. The new GM has the base of the team. And some unnamed fans will be very happy that we have an excellent GM who would still built a great team.

I assume that you would consider it fair if they treated you like that. Or not?

 

[koteka]

You know, you can find any little thing that you could blame Jarmo for. And if you can't find it, invent it.

The rebuilding has started from the 2021/22 season. Before Torts was a coach, he was a good team, it had a chance to fight for higher places. Do you think that Jarmo should have started trading players? Try to explain to the team that they are trading Panarin and Bobrovsky because they want to leave, even though the team had a chance to advance higher than the second round. And, if you noticed, we mostly lost to future SC champions.

So if we count the real rebuilding, this is the third year, and in the first two seasons many players were injured.

By the way, Jarmo built the base, but, according to you, other GMs should develop it. That is a very "good" idea. Jarmo drafted Werensky, Johnson, Jiříček, Mateychuk and Fantilli in the first rounds, Marchenko and Voronkov in the next round (not counting Chinakhov, Sillinger, Svozil and Texier, for example), Laine and Provorov, in trades Gaudreau was signed. The new GM has the base of the team. And some unnamed fans will be very happy that we have an excellent GM who would still built a great team.

I assume that you would consider it fair if they treated you like that. Or not?

Jarmo has had his job for years. He has reached the second round of the playoffs once. I was a Jarmo fan. But the last several years Jarmo has been awful.

Jarmo deserves absolutely no credit for drafting very highly rated guys like Jiricek and Fantilli the last two years. Any GM could have done that with really high draft picks from having bad seasons. Anybody on this board would have made those picks. Those bad seasons weren’t intentional - Jarmo was trying to win, but he built teams with horrible defense and horrible goal tending and those teams finished way behind most teams. So don’t tell me Jarmo is awesome because he drafted a consensus #2 draft pick with the third pick after we were so atrocious.

Yes. It is time for a new GM to come in and evaluate our talent that we largely accumulated through sucking, and figure out how to move forward.

If I sucked at my job for the last 4 years I would expect to be fired. In my office if I had hired a creepy guy who searched young people’s phones, I would be fired for that alone. But we have accountability where I work.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Jarmo has had his job for years. He has reached the second round of the playoffs once. I was a Jarmo fan. But the last several years Jarmo has been awful.

Jarmo deserves absolutely no credit for drafting very highly rated guys like Jiricek and Fantilli the last two years. Any GM could have done that with really high draft picks from having bad seasons. Anybody on this board would have made those picks. Those bad seasons weren’t intentional - Jarmo was trying to win, but he built teams with horrible defense and horrible goal tending and those teams finished way behind most teams. So don’t tell me Jarmo is awesome because he drafted a consensus #2 draft pick with the third pick after we were so atrocious.

Yes. It is time for a new GM to come in and evaluate our talent that we largely accumulated through sucking, and figure out how to move forward.

If I sucked at my job for the last 4 years I would expect to be fired. In my office if I had hired a creepy guy who searched young people’s phones, I would be fired for that alone. But we have accountability where I work.

The Jarmo Defense League is in full out assault against you. LOL. The amount of Jarmo apologists on this board is astounding.

Imagine how they'd be if he had a team which had advanced to the third round once in 11 years. They'd be calling for a lifetime contract.

You're a refreshing voice in the wilderness on this. Keep up the good fight!

 

[Farmboy Patty]

three years ago:
- our top prospects were foudy, marchenko and bemstrom
- the narrative was "they can't keep good players"
- our best young player had just requested a trade
- werenski hadn't signed an extension

now:
- future franchise-level 1C (fantilli)
- future top pair RHD (jiricek)
- future top line LW (johnson)
- massive UFA signing (gaudreau)
- retained two stars (werenski + laine)
- added two top-four defensemen (provorov/severson)
- also drafted mateychuk, sillinger, svozil, dumais, etc.

…is that not sizable, tangible progress in working toward a cup?


both guys are worth more than what was paid to acquire them, particularly provorov. the defense has been significantly better this year, due in no small part to those two guys.

is the team rushing the youth?
or are they wasting assets to acquire veterans to prevent the youth from being rushed?
which one is it it?

are the young guys being rushed?
or are they not being rushed enough?
which one is it?

it's also… not a problem. at least not right now. goaltending has been fine-to-good so far this year.

did any goalies who match that description get traded last season? or this summer?

so, you're saying that the team simultaneously:
- isn't doing enough to win a cup
- should be treating marchenko like a top six forward
- should trade a top six forward on an ELC for an AHL goalie

feels like we're really grasping at straws here, doesn't it?

I tip my hat for this post of yours. It’s so refreshing to read a level headed disarming of a misery bomb.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Jarmo has had his job for years. He has reached the second round of the playoffs once. I was a Jarmo fan. But the last several years Jarmo has been awful.

he's been the GM for 10 full seasons. they've made the playoffs in five of those seasons. that includes the now three-plus year stretch where they've been in a clear, full-scale tear-down rebuild.

Jarmo deserves absolutely no credit for drafting very highly rated guys like Jiricek and Fantilli the last two years. Any GM could have done that with really high draft picks from having bad seasons.

the funny thing about your comment is that jarmo is only here precisely because previous blue jackets GMs did an unfathomably bad job with high draft picks.

Anybody on this board would have made those picks.

acting like this board was clamoring for dubois or johnson is some impressive revisionist history.

Those bad seasons weren’t intentional - Jarmo was trying to win, but he built teams with horrible defense

acting like jarmo went into last season saying stuff like "hmm we can make the playoffs if we roll berni-gudbranson as the top pair"

and horrible goal tending

acting like jarmo's plan was for elvis to completely fall apart after experiencing unspeakable trauma

and those teams finished way behind most teams.

acting like they didn't start a very clear, full-scale, tear-down rebuild three seasons ago

Yes. It is time for a new GM to come in and evaluate our talent that we largely accumulated through sucking, and figure out how to move forward.

acting like there isn't already a ton of talent and a clear plan to move forward.

it's like baking a cake – jarmo has compiled the ingredients and is mixing the batter, but that doesn't mean the cake is ready; it still has to spend some time in the oven.

If I sucked at my job for the last 4 years I would expect to be fired. In my office if I had hired a creepy guy who searched young people’s phones, I would be fired for that alone. But we have accountability where I work.

sick straw man you got there! mind if i borrow that and put it out in the field over yonder?

(i was one of the people on this board saying the babcock hiring/fallout was fireable for jarmo – this discussion is about the state of the rebuild, which is extremely good all things considered)

 

[majormajor]

The Jarmo Defense League is in full out assault against you. LOL. The amount of Jarmo apologists on this board is astounding.

Imagine how they'd be if he had a team which had advanced to the third round once in 11 years. They'd be calling for a lifetime contract.

You're a refreshing voice in the wilderness on this. Keep up the good fight!

Most folks seem to want Jarmo gone, yet you're out here imagining some heroic defense against hordes of rabid Jarmo apologists.

What's actually happening is koteka baiting folks with confused nonsense. Like thinking that we're going to get better players than Fantilli and Jiricek if we just keep rebuilding. My position is that Jarmo should go and also that our U22 talent position is top 3 in the league. Those aren't mutually exclusive positions.

 

[squashmaple]

The Jarmo Defense League is in full out assault against you. LOL. The amount of Jarmo apologists on this board is astounding.

Imagine how they'd be if he had a team which had advanced to the third round once in 11 years. They'd be calling for a lifetime contract.

You're a refreshing voice in the wilderness on this. Keep up the good fight!

No. We've got an old man yelling at clouds and building magnificent scarecrows because they're easier to burn down than real facts, being rebutted by people who have a connection to reality. You've added a couple nails yourself.

Jarmo and JD absolutely should have been fired over the Babcock debacle. I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. But koteka is trolling and misrepresenting, and being rightfully called on it.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Most folks seem to want Jarmo gone, yet you're out here imagining some heroic defense against hordes of rabid Jarmo apologists.

What's actually happening is koteka baiting folks with confused nonsense. Like thinking that we're going to get better players than Fantilli and Jiricek if we just keep rebuilding. My position is that Jarmo should go and also that our U22 talent position is top 3 in the league. Those aren't mutually exclusive positions.

he should have been fired after the babcock stuff imo.

at the same time, the broad strokes of the rebuild (new core through the draft, retain key players, acquire good players with term) are done. they're flush with assets. it's impressive.

there have been some bad moves mixed in (as there are for any GM), but the decision-making process behind those is still valid (extending elvis when they did, with a market-value contract, not knowing that kivlenieks was going to tragically die the next summer, is not something jarmo should be roundly criticized for imo).

at this point, the case for continuity is probably stronger than the case for a new perspective. i'm not sure it matters either way – no one has trade flexibility and the biggest lift is going to come from guys like fantilli/johnson/jiricek maturing as players.

 

[majormajor]

he should have been fired after the babcock stuff imo.

at the same time, the broad strokes of the rebuild (new core through the draft, retain key players, acquire good players with term) are done. they're flush with assets. it's impressive.

there have been some bad moves mixed in (as there are for any GM), but the decision-making process behind those is still valid (extending elvis when they did, with a market-value contract, not knowing that kivlenieks was going to tragically die the next summer, is not something jarmo should be roundly criticized for imo).

at this point, the case for continuity is probably stronger than the case for a new perspective. i'm not sure it matters either way – no one has trade flexibility and the biggest lift is going to come from guys like fantilli/johnson/jiricek maturing as players.

Firing Jarmo doesn't imply some massive roster turnover is incoming. You can have a GM change without that. Make better decisions like not keeping Sillinger in the NHL through a brutal sophomore campaign, not hiring Babs, etc... (I personally think the Severson contract might go in this category). But the path forward from here is going to be fairly obvious regardless of GM, develop what we have.

 

[Fred Glover]

Insane to me we have multiple people in here pinning this game on Elvis… but I guess nothing new.

To be clear, I am not pinning the loss on Elvis
in the three games I have watched in person and a couple on the Telly
my observation is that he gives up juicy rebounds that the opposing team loves to take advantage of
Elvis needs to control those rebounds

 

[koteka]

The amount of Jarmo apologists on this board is astounding.

I’m just amazed that the evidence that Jarmo is a good GM and the right guy for the job is that the the prospect pool now is much better than a few years ago when the GM at that time (who, by the way, was Jarmo) was trading away draft picks for guys like Duchene so we didn’t have much of a prospect pool.

 

[stevo61]

For the record the Jiricek pick was acquired via trade. So getting that pick plus other assets for a guy telling the world he's leaving and only willing to sign longterm in 3 places with 1 of those 3 100% unable to sign him is actually a positive for Jarmo.

 

[squashmaple]

I’m just amazed that the evidence that Jarmo is a good GM and the right guy for the job is that the the prospect pool now is much better than a few years ago when the GM at that time (who, by the way, was Jarmo) was trading away draft picks for guys like Duchene so we didn’t have much of a prospect pool.

What? Seriously. What? The team went all in at the deadline that year. You know, like teams who are poised to make noise in the playoffs do? They decided to treat Bread and Bob as own rentals and used assets to acquire more rentals. And it worked! They swept Tampa! They almost beat Boston, and would have if not for injuries like what happened to Josh Anderson. Trading what turned out to be the nineteenth overall pick for an established player who's an upgrade at the trading deadline is EXACTLY WHAT TEAMS WHO ARE COMPETITIVE DO TO BE COMPETITIVE. No team gives a flying fig about their prospect pool in that moment. No team in the league bites their fingernails off worrying about the pool when they're competing in the playoffs.

Do you understand a thing about how the business of hockey and the NHL work? I sincerely don't think you do, or you wouldn't be making these ridiculous comments.

 

[ColumbusTrill]

I’m just amazed that the evidence that Jarmo is a good GM and the right guy for the job is that the the prospect pool now is much better than a few years ago when the GM at that time (who, by the way, was Jarmo) was trading away draft picks for guys like Duchene so we didn’t have much of a prospect pool.

Yeah it’s called trying to win which I guess also can be criticized? You’re mad at him for sucking but you’re also mad at him for actually building a good team and trying to make a run.

Having ups and downs is the natural cycle of almost every pro sports franchise

 

[koteka]

Yeah it’s called trying to win which I guess also can be criticized?

What? Seriously. What? The team went all in at the deadline that year.

I am just pointing out that it is kind of a ridiculous argument to make that we went from a bad prospect pool to a good prospect pool so Jarmo is a brilliant GM. Jarmo is the reason the old prospect pool wasn’t very good because he went all in. Improving the prospect pool was almost inevitable. I don’t think the fact that couple of seasons of lousy Jackets teams resulting in high draft choices and a better prospect pool makes Jarmo a genius.

 

[tunnelvision]

Firing Jarmo doesn't imply some massive roster turnover is incoming. You can have a GM change without that. Make better decisions like not keeping Sillinger in the NHL through a brutal sophomore campaign, not hiring Babs, etc... (I personally think the Severson contract might go in this category). But the path forward from here is going to be fairly obvious regardless of GM, develop what we have.

Generally speaking yes, but one huge difference between Jarmo and a new GM is the attachment (or the lack of) to team's prospects. One may think that a new GM is less likely to stubbornly hold on to some of the most valuable young assets they have, even when there is a clear imbalance in the depth chart at certain positions and the other team's trade offer is very reasonable.

It may be smart to trade some of KJ, Marchenko, Dumais, Mateychuk, Svozil, Brindley etc at some point in the future when their value is as high as they can be but it's kind of hard to expect Jarmo to do that.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

For the record the Jiricek pick was acquired via trade. So getting that pick plus other assets for a guy telling the world he's leaving and only willing to sign longterm in 3 places with 1 of those 3 100% unable to sign him is actually a positive for Jarmo.

shhhhhhh, jarmo doesn't get credit for drafting guys even if he acquired the pick for a pending UFA who signed a boat anchor contract

I’m just amazed that the evidence that Jarmo is a good GM and the right guy for the job is that the the prospect pool now is much better than a few years ago when the GM at that time (who, by the way, was Jarmo) was trading away draft picks for guys like Duchene so we didn’t have much of a prospect pool.

they gave up one (1) first round pick in the duchene trade. the guy who was selected with that pick (lassi thomson) was just put on waivers. late first round picks are not worth nearly as much as people think.

matt duchene had twice as many points in the playoffs with columbus (10) as lassi thomson has in his entire NHL career (5 - all regular season).

translation: it was a good trade!

 

[koteka]

shhhhhhh, jarmo doesn't get credit for drafting guys even if he acquired the pick for a pending UFA who signed a boat anchor contract


they gave up one (1) first round pick in the duchene trade. the guy who was selected with that pick (lassi thomson) was just put on waivers. late first round picks are not worth nearly as much as people think.

matt duchene had twice as many points in the playoffs with columbus (10) as lassi thomson has in his entire NHL career (5 - all regular season).

translation: it was a good trade!

Did I say it was a bad trade or did I say it is ridiculous to say a guy is a great GM because he rebuilt the prospect pool up from almost nothing when he is the reason it was almost nothing? @Viqsi probably has a logical fallacy that describes the situation of breaking something, fixing it, and then getting praised for fixing what you had broken. There is probably an Aesop’s fable or something about this situation.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

The Jarmo Defense League is in full out assault against you. LOL. The amount of Jarmo apologists on this board is astounding.

Imagine how they'd be if he had a team which had advanced to the third round once in 11 years. They'd be calling for a lifetime contract.

You're a refreshing voice in the wilderness on this. Keep up the good fight!

I tip my hat for this post of yours. It’s so refreshing to read a level headed disarming of a misery bomb.

These two posts back to back are indicative of… pretty much the nature of public discourse these days.

 

[Marioesque]

I am just pointing out that it is kind of a ridiculous argument to make that we went from a bad prospect pool to a good prospect pool so Jarmo is a brilliant GM. Jarmo is the reason the old prospect pool wasn’t very good because he went all in. Improving the prospect pool was almost inevitable. I don’t think the fact that couple of seasons of lousy Jackets teams resulting in high draft choices and a better prospect pool makes Jarmo a genius.

So he went all in an got some playoff performances but couldn't make it happen with that core, and pivoted to a different core with this "retooling" which I don't find as problematic as you seem to do.

Dubois situation eventually made it happen, but for me it was the correct decision to change the team direction and I like where it has been going since.

You can certainly argue that he should have been fired because the original "all in" didn't work, as in "if you don't bring results on first try you need to go". Ok, fair enough if that's the argument. I don't agree with it, the teams coaching philosophy doesn't reflect "mistake and you're out" but instead accountability and improvement. I've seen that from the team and I think it should extend to the leadership as well. I see the team improving, , I'm not faulting it on Jarmo alone that the first core didn't win a cup. And I'd like to see him have success with the team that he has built. If there wouldn't be improvement and if the future looked as bleak, I'd agree with you.

The Babcock situation was bad, I just don't know how much it was Jarmo or JD decision. Without that information I can't tell who really messed it up, but someone convinced Jarmo that it was a good hire and if it was Jarmos boss then it's on the boss.

He's not afraid to make moves to improve and he has always been a good drafter. There's a lot of value in just those things alone when comparing to many NHL GM's.

 

[koteka]

 

[CBJx614]

Firing Jarmo doesn't imply some massive roster turnover is incoming. You can have a GM change without that. Make better decisions like not keeping Sillinger in the NHL through a brutal sophomore campaign, not hiring Babs, etc... (I personally think the Severson contract might go in this category). But the path forward from here is going to be fairly obvious regardless of GM, develop what we have.

I will always put this out there....

The grass ain't always greener. Just because we replace Jarmo doesn't mean that we'll get a BETTER GM.

I've seen a few names thrown around but nobody that would be an obvious upgrade on Jarmo.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

View attachment 761418

a quick refresher on how the nhl works:
- prospect pools are more important for rebuilders than contenders
- the backbone of most contending teams are guys they drafted

jarmo simultaneously gets credit for building the 2019 team (a mix of guys he drafted, guys he traded for, and guys he kept/developed from the previous regime) and gets credit for acquiring the young talent that he has during this rebuild phase.

this is not that hard to understand, my guy