GDT: Game 9 • 10/27/15 • Wild vs. Oilers • 7PM CDT/2AM Suomi • FSN

[Nino Noderreiter]

So, Brodziak.

Maybe in terms of end result, they definitely do it in different ways, Brodziak was a center and slightly more physical and better defensively. Pominville has better offensive awareness, passing ability, and skill.

Pominville is basically a top 6 skilled player version of Brodziak's bottom 6 version. Similiar, in a way maybe, but that's still stretching it.

Brodziak had only 1 year where he scored more goals than Pominville's 18 last year.

Pominville before last year scored 20+ in every full season of his career and still had more points (54) in his worst year than Brodziak's best year. So you're definitely stretching it a ton, but I can see where your coming from and since this is a message board I guess I'll give it to you.

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

If he played with TV you will see Pom return to form. They think the same pretty goal open net game and he gets to play with a better passer than Granny or Zach. Not as much ZONE time that everyone swears means the world but just as many grade A scoring chances. I would guess Vanek's game would improve too.

I thought Haula looked pretty good with TV on those shifts

I like this description of Vanek's game. They are always trying to get that tap in goal. Personally, I'm a fan of that style more than most people because I believe taking a risk to make a pass to make play that has a 95% success rate is better than the risk you are taking shooting, when even in the slot, you probably have a 15-25% success rate and that's being generous if the goalie is set up.

That's why Vanek has so many primary assists. And is the pass being broken up in that situation really any different than the goalie saving a shot and it hitting off of him? No, it's basically semantics, but the average fan is always yelling shooooooot and mooaaar shots as you can hear on just about every TV broadcast so that's probably where a lot of the hate comes from.


People don't understand that really the only way to beat goalies is to get a screen or a deflection or to beat the goalie when he's not set. What has a higher percent chance of going in? A shot while the goalie is set or in an obvious shot situation, catching people off guard by sliding a pass against the grain, and setting up a shot that's going to go in 95% of the time.

Basically would you make an extra pass to get a Grade A scoring chance instead of a Grade B or C? Most players on the Wild take the B or C and then try and crash the net and bang it in. Vanek and Pominville to some extent are some examples of players who are looking to get that Grade A scoring chance.

Now if Vanek tries to make that backdoor pass and he's in a shooting position and the pass gets broken up...everyone screams at Vanek without actually realizing the intent and realizing that most of the time it's a smart play. Now Vanek has a great shot and can snipe from anywhere...so you have to find the right balance because you want Vanek shooting and the threat of Vanek shooting and the goalie and the D expecting Vanek to shoot are what sets up his ability to freeze defenders and goalies and then pass...so it's definitely a pretty nuanced concept.

 

[borisbadenough]

I like this description of Vanek's game. They are always trying to get that tap in goal. Personally, I'm a fan of that style more than most people because I believe taking a risk to make a pass to make play that has a 95% success rate is better than the risk you are taking shooting, when even in the slot, you probably have a 15-25% success rate and that's being generous if the goalie is set up.

That's why Vanek has so many primary assists. And is the pass being broken up in that situation really any different than the goalie saving a shot and it hitting off of him? No, it's basically semantics, but the average fan is always yelling shooooooot and mooaaar shots as you can hear on just about every TV broadcast so that's probably where a lot of the hate comes from.


People don't understand that really the only way to beat goalies is to get a screen or a deflection or to beat the goalie when he's not set. What has a higher percent chance of going in? A shot while the goalie is set or in an obvious shot situation, catching people off guard by sliding a pass against the grain, and setting up a shot that's going to go in 95% of the time.

Basically would you make an extra pass to get a Grade A scoring chance instead of a Grade B or C? Most players on the Wild take the B or C and then try and crash the net and bang it in. Vanek and Pominville to some extent are some examples of players who are looking to get that Grade A scoring chance.

Now if Vanek tries to make that backdoor pass and he's in a shooting position and the pass gets broken up...everyone screams at Vanek without actually realizing the intent and realizing that most of the time it's a smart play. Now Vanek has a great shot and can snipe from anywhere...so you have to find the right balance because you want Vanek shooting and the threat of Vanek shooting and the goalie and the D expecting Vanek to shoot are what sets up his ability to freeze defenders and goalies and then pass...so it's definitely a pretty nuanced concept.

your either a player or an astute fan (a 5 percenter).. great post. you get it.

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

your either a player or an astute fan (a 5 percenter).. great post. you get it.

Appreciate it man.

 

[123TripleDoge]

I don't think Pom and Vanek can be on the same line at this point in their careers, the system they play in, the conference they play in

 

[nickschultzfan]

Wish Wild moved Pominville for a bag of pucks and used the money saved to re-sign Brodziak. Coyle could then move to the 1st line RW, and Graovac/Brodziak/Haula could fight for the bottom-2 centers.

 

[Minnesota]

I don't miss Brodziak anymore. We have young players ready to step up and fill those bottom-6 spots. No sense in wasting money on re-signing declining vets.

Pominville's production is a different issue.

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

People sure have short memory for a guy who was 2nd on the team in points last year and 1st the year before and "only" has 5 assists in 10 games. I was hating on Pominville, but I hate how this happens and then now i've seen people throw out some line combos with Pominville on the 4th line.

Pominville needs to pick up his production, but a lot of it is puck luck.

 

[J22*]

Wish Wild moved Pominville for a bag of pucks and used the money saved to re-sign Brodziak. Coyle could then move to the 1st line RW, and Graovac/Brodziak/Haula could fight for the bottom-2 centers.

Just to be clear, you wish the Wild would've dumped a 1st liner so they would've had roster space to keep a 4th liner? Most of my wishes are to make the team better, but to each his own I guess.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Just to be clear, you wish the Wild would've dumped a 1st liner so they would've had roster space to keep a 4th liner? Most of my wishes are to make the team better, but to each his own I guess.

Define better.

Now define better for next year.

And the year after that.

And the year after that.

Is Pominville really the 1st line RW for this team moving forward?

Because all the arguments for Pominville for a year now have been historic. Based on what he has done. Not what he is going to do. It may be framed as a "bounce back", but really what everybody is saying is he was productive before so he must be productive again.

Truth is the real Pominville has been in front of us the entire time. It's just what happens when players decline. Sad but true.

 

[Sharppi]

Define better.

Now define better for next year.

And the year after that.

And the year after that.

Is Pominville really the 1st line RW for this team moving forward?

Because all the arguments for Pominville for a year now have been historic. Based on what he has done. Not what he is going to do. It may be framed as a "bounce back", but really what everybody is saying is he was productive before so he must be productive again.

Truth is the real Pominville has been in front of us the entire time. It's just what happens when players decline. Sad but true.

There's exactly one thing that has declined in Pommers play. That's shooting percentage. That doesn't indicate decline.

 

[Lapa]

My hope is that Pommer is here at least until Tuch is ready to take over. If he's at least a middle six level player when Tuch is ready, why not after that as well?

 

[BagHead]

Define better.

Now define better for next year.

And the year after that.

And the year after that.

Is Pominville really the 1st line RW for this team moving forward?

Because all the arguments for Pominville for a year now have been historic. Based on what he has done. Not what he is going to do. It may be framed as a "bounce back", but really what everybody is saying is he was productive before so he must be productive again.

Truth is the real Pominville has been in front of us the entire time. It's just what happens when players decline. Sad but true.

I've asked this question before, and it never gets answered, but who would you have as our 1st line RW? Don't say Coyle, because he hasn't stepped up to that role, yet. Even just last game he got temporarily demoted to send a message to pick his play up. Is there anyone else on the team even close to playing it?

My point is that if you want to win a cup, you don't move your best RW unless you've got an actual replacement available. Yeah, by the end of his contract, it could be a bad deal, but 1) we don't know how bad, and 2) we have no available replacement for him, anyway, even if we could move him. You may be thinking "trade", but we wouldn't get a better 1st line RW without giving up major assets. Remember what Pominville cost in the first place? Ready to pay that again?

 

[MNRube]

I don't think Pom and Vanek can be on the same line at this point in their careers, the system they play in, the conference they play in

Sadly I agree. Maybe if you were to put a puck retriever like Coyle between them it could work but as of now they are our two weakest players on the puck. Pominville has been abused time and again this year. Has me really worried he is falling apart physically. But maybe it is worth a shot. Wouldn't mind seeing Parise-Granlund-Nino, Zucker-Koivu-Fontaine and then Vanek-Coyle-Pominville. But I would be wary of defensive zone starts for that third unit and I think Yeo knows that line would be a liability in it's own end.

Vanek - as noted above in the good post by Nino - is not great at maintaining offensive zone time. He likes the homerun play and is apathetic on the forecheck so even the offensive zone starts wouldn't keep them out of their own end where the trouble would be. Very pleased with Vanek so far - except the lazy plays that will never change of course - and think his scoring from the third line is one of this team's best assets. Pominville, on the other hand, has been our worst forward IMO a lot of nights and a change would do him good. Maybe put him with Mikko? I dunno.

If I were GMCF I would be thinking hard on trying to trade Pominville. We know he's a great guy and respected in the room but we've seen 3 springs straight now (well 2.5 actually) that his game is not built for playoff hockey where checking is tightened up and every inch is battled for. Anything we can get for him would be a wise move. That contract will just keep getting worse. Unless I am wrong and Pommer can rediscover his game or is just suffering from a nagging injury or something, I think he is our most replaceable player.

 

[57special]

I sure as hell don't want to mess with the second line until it shows signs of dysfunction.

 

[nickschultzfan]

There's exactly one thing that has declined in Pommers play. That's shooting percentage. That doesn't indicate decline.

Puck protection.
Loose pucks.
Hand speed.
Foot speed.
Physicality.
Willingness to go into dirty areas.

There are lots of elements that declining.

 

[borisbadenough]

Puck protection.
Loose pucks.
Hand speed.
Foot speed.
Physicality.
Willingness to go into dirty areas.

There are lots of elements that declining.

All subjective stuff..he has never been a physical player...never was know for his physicality or "dirty area play" Foot speed? Still more than adequate. your reaching I think .. His vision, sense and passing skills have not declined. He is going through a period of bad puck luck, some of which is attributable to the timing and quality of the passes he receives and more importantly the ones he do not.Mostly bad luck.. I always thought the 30 goals he put up , given the quality of centers he played with, exceeded expectations. Put him on a line with Vanek and the quality of the center will not matter as much.

 

[nickschultzfan]

I've asked this question before, and it never gets answered, but who would you have as our 1st line RW? Don't say Coyle, because he hasn't stepped up to that role, yet. Even just last game he got temporarily demoted to send a message to pick his play up. Is there anyone else on the team even close to playing it?

My point is that if you want to win a cup, you don't move your best RW unless you've got an actual replacement available. Yeah, by the end of his contract, it could be a bad deal, but 1) we don't know how bad, and 2) we have no available replacement for him, anyway, even if we could move him. You may be thinking "trade", but we wouldn't get a better 1st line RW without giving up major assets. Remember what Pominville cost in the first place? Ready to pay that again?

Coyle is the obvious choice. Him putting up 40 points, while also being physical, getting loose pucks, driving the net, protecting the puck, being strong on the boards, would be an upgrade at the 1st line RW.

There is more than points to hockey.

 

[this providence]

Coyle is the absolute worst for with Parise and Granlund.

Zero hockey IQ and zero ability to see the ice makes absolutely no sense to work with those two.

 

[nickschultzfan]

All subjective stuff..he has never been a physical player...never was know for his physicality or "dirty area play" Foot speed? Still more than adequate. your reaching I think .. His vision, sense and passing skills have not declined. He is going through a period of bad puck luck, some of which is attributable to the timing and quality of the passes he receives and more importantly the ones he do not.Mostly bad luck.. I always thought the 30 goals he put up , given the quality of centers he played with, exceeded expectations. Put him on a line with Vanek and the quality of the center will not matter as much.

After a year, puck luck is just an excuse.

And when you have weak points in your game, you really can't lose them. Pominville is the number 1 turnover machine on the Wild.

 

[this providence]

And when you have weak points in your game, you really can't lose them. Pominville is the number 1 turnover machine on the Wild.

Would be interesting if that had any basis in reality. The truth is:

Dubnyk
Koivu
Vanek
Granlund
Parise
Brodin
Suter
Scandella
Zucker
Spurgeon

All have more. Quite a ways down the list.

 

[BusQuets]

Would be interesting if that had any basis in reality. The truth is:

Dubnyk
Koivu
Vanek
Granlund
Parise
Brodin
Suter
Scandella
Zucker
Spurgeon

All have more. Quite a ways down the list.

I hope you aren't basing this list on NHL.com's stats which are laughably horrible. The truth is that Pominville has way too many giveaways especially when you count how rarely he actually has the puck.

 

[this providence]

I hope you aren't basing this list on NHL.com's stats which are laughably horrible. The truth is that Pominville has way too many giveaways especially when you count how rarely he actually has the puck.

Call something like that from whichever source subjective, bad, whatever you wish; it just proves the hysteria has gone off the rails.

Until Pominville becomes the worst player on his line, I can't buy the thought process that he's what's holding this team back.

Of my concerns on this team, Pominville is pretty far down that list.

 

[MNRube]

I hope you aren't basing this list on NHL.com's stats which are laughably horrible. The truth is that Pominville has way too many giveaways especially when you count how rarely he actually has the puck.

Agreed. His turnovers are of the gets hit and loses possession variety. He's quite good with the puck when he has time and space and rarely makes a stupid play he just can't handle the puck under pressure at teh moment. Whether it's bad luck or age, who knows. But he can't win a battle to save his life.

Can't stand the Granlund hate here. Sure he's not the 1C we hope and he isn't producing like we want but if you watch the game he is so much more effective than Pominville. Great at zone entries, very slippery along the boards, throwing body around and more. Single-handedly sets up a perfect opportunity every game that for some reason aren't being buried. He's playing just as I expected.

Pominville, on the other hand, is playing like ****. He coughs up the puck more than any Wild player since Heatley. Also, this isn't just about a 9 game sample or his well-known shooting struggles last year. This guy disappears annually in the playoffs, too. He's the classic player type who struggles in those tightly contested games where gaps shrink, defenders are on you a second quicker and refs swallow their whistles. Why must we defend this guy when he isn't producing and is primed to letdown when we make playoffs? Sure, Koivu and Vanek have been playoff letdowns too but at least they serve a unique and indispensable purpose throughout the year (lockdown C and 3rd line scorer who can carry line offensively alone).

How can people not notice this, or if they do notice it, how can you not be worried?

 

[nickschultzfan]

Agreed. His turnovers are of the gets hit and loses possession variety. He's quite good with the puck when he has time and space and rarely makes a stupid play he just can't handle the puck under pressure at teh moment. Whether it's bad luck or age, who knows. But he can't win a battle to save his life.

Can't stand the Granlund hate here. Sure he's not the 1C we hope and he isn't producing like we want but if you watch the game he is so much more effective than Pominville. Great at zone entries, very slippery along the boards, throwing body around and more. Single-handedly sets up a perfect opportunity every game that for some reason aren't being buried. He's playing just as I expected.

Pominville, on the other hand, is playing like ****. He coughs up the puck more than any Wild player since Heatley. Also, this isn't just about a 9 game sample or his well-known shooting struggles last year. This guy disappears annually in the playoffs, too. He's the classic player type who struggles in those tightly contested games where gaps shrink, defenders are on you a second quicker and refs swallow their whistles. Why must we defend this guy when he isn't producing and is primed to letdown when we make playoffs? Sure, Koivu and Vanek have been playoff letdowns too but at least they serve a unique and indispensable purpose throughout the year (lockdown C and 3rd line scorer who can carry line offensively alone).

How can people not notice this, or if they do notice it, how can you not be worried?

I have no idea.

Trends matter significantly to an NHL team. Yet when you talk about them, people get angry and hide their head in the sand.