GDT: Game 8: Vancouver Canucks @ Colorado Avalanche | 10.24.14 | 7 p.m. height of Sports

Bender

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According to this, Sbisa isn't just struggling, he's making Greg Zanon look like a better alternative.

http://canucksarmy.com/2014/10/24/canucks-army-postgame-regression-be-damned

I shouldn't feel relief from this, but I do.

It's too bad we didn't trade O'Reilly for him as the centerpiece of a package from Anaheim. :sarcasm: :laugh:

I hope people don't ruin Hannan's legacy, whatever small amount of one he had while here. The guy was very good in his role and made Liles a respectable defender.

Hannan is what Stuart wishes he could be for us.

I think that's a bit unfair. Didn't Hannan sign with us as a UFA as a 28 year old? Not exactly the same thing as Stuart coming over as a 34 year old.
 

Vincek40

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I don't get why the officials get to confer to make the on ice call. That's what the video review is for. An official makes a heat of the moment call, then go to the video. Why is there the middle step? To discuss what the guy saw before the video guys discuss what the guy saw?

They confer to make sure that one of the other officials did not see something different. It allows them to know what each of them saw on the goal. 95% it doesnt matter and they go to video review, but there are times when even the back guy will have a better angle. It may be hard to tell from watching on tv, or even sitting in the stands, but as a referee, I can say that the angles seen on ice by officials are completely different then someone would think sitting in the stands.

It may be a bit overkill and seem like a unnecessary middle step, but its part of ref protocol to ensure they get the right call.
 
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Pokecheque

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Before the thread gets closed, it sure was awesome seeing Barrie and EJ do their thing on the power play. Yeah, they had a lot more room since it was a 2-man advantage, but IMO they make a great pairing even at EV. Of course I don't think they could pair the two long-term given the present defensive corps.
 

tigervixxxen

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They confer to make sure that one of the other officials did not see something different. It allows them to know what each of them saw on the goal. 95% it doesnt matter and they go to video review, but there are times when even the back guy will have a better angle. It may be hard to tell from watching on tv, or even sitting in the stands, but as a referee, I can say that the angles seen on ice by officials are completely different then someone would think sitting in the stands.

It may be a bit overkill and seem like a unnecessary middle step, but its part of ref protocol to ensure they get the right call.

Not when they change each other's mind and then the video review says inconclusive and the original call stands. At that point there pretty much is no original call because it changed several times. If a video in slow mo from several angles is inconclusive then I doubt one guy further away on the ice definitively saw what was going on.
 

Pokecheque

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Not when they change each other's mind and then the video review says inconclusive and the original call stands. At that point there pretty much is no original call because it changed several times. If a video in slow mo from several angles is inconclusive then I doubt one guy further away on the ice definitively saw what was going on.

I agree. The "huddle" just makes a confusing, muddled process even more convoluted.

That said, I've never understood why the NHL just doesn't do away with the kicking rule entirely. A goal is a goal, so long as the puck wasn't outright shoved/tossed in with a glove, I don't see the problem with it. It won't lead to a rash of soccer-style kicks or something silly like that.
 

Nzap

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I agree. The "huddle" just makes a confusing, muddled process even more convoluted.

That said, I've never understood why the NHL just doesn't do away with the kicking rule entirely. A goal is a goal, so long as the puck wasn't outright shoved/tossed in with a glove, I don't see the problem with it. It won't lead to a rash of soccer-style kicks or something silly like that.

I think the NHL don't want players to try to kick a puck with the skates due to the fact that they might cause injury if there's a player laying on the ground in front of them.
We have seen this season quite a lot of lacerations due to skate blades, and the NHL won't probably abolish a rule that is there to reduce these kind of cases.
 

Foppa2118

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How do you know what the ref can or can not see? Just because a camera angle did not pick it up does not mean one of the refs behind the play did not have a good view. There are not that many camera angles. And the only way a ref and a camera are going to have the exact same view is if the ref is wearing a GoPro. The views are going to be different. Even if just slightly different that could be the difference in seeing the puck and having something obstructing the view, especially when talking about something as small as a puck.

Because common sense tells you that if there's cameras positioned directly behind the back official on both sides of the blueline, plus a bunch of others, plus overhead cams, all in HD, all with the ability to slow mo, all with the ability to zoom in close, and the ability to say "okay we know he didn't touch the puck from this angle up until the view gets obstructed at xx:xx now lets look at this other angle." then at the very best he'll be able to see what one of the cameras picked up. So why give him all the power in that situation when the cameras have a much better chance at conclusively seeing something?

There's probably less than 1% chance the ref can see something in real time from about 75 feet away that none of the cameras pick up. He's not going to have some kind of magic sight line from that far away that the cameras don't also have. The only play he'll have a better determination on is high stick plays since he's directly at ice level, but even that is extremely hard for the ref to see from about 75 feet away in real time.

He should only be allowed to put the play in question, not overturn the official. Any time the back official is going to overturn the closer official on a goal it's going to review anyway, so just let them decide whether it's conclusive or not.
 
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Pokecheque

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I think the NHL don't want players to try to kick a puck with the skates due to the fact that they might cause injury if there's a player laying on the ground in front of them.
We have seen this season quite a lot of lacerations due to skate blades, and the NHL won't probably abolish a rule that is there to reduce these kind of cases.

Have you ever seen a hockey player kick a puck? No one is going to line up and make some crazy field-goal style kick. I don't think there would be any increase in cuts. The increase in cuts is a result of other factors...and also hockey players being stupid about not switching to kevlar-lined socks.
 

StayAtHomeAv

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Because common sense tells you that if there's cameras positioned directly behind the back official on both sides of the blueline, plus a bunch of others, plus overhead cams, all in HD, all with the ability to slow mo, all with the ability to zoom in close, and the ability to say "okay we know he didn't touch the puck from this angle up until the view gets obstructed at xx:xx now lets look at this other angle." then at the very best he'll be able to see what one of the cameras picked up. So why give him all the power in that situation when the cameras have a much better chance at conclusively seeing something?

There's probably less than 1% chance the ref can see something in real time from about 75 feet away that none of the cameras pick up. He's not going to have some kind of magic sight line from that far away that the cameras don't also have. The only play he'll have a better determination on is high stick plays since he's directly at ice level, but even that is extremely hard for the ref to see from about 75 feet away in real time.

He should only be allowed to put the play in question, not overturn the official. Any time the back official is going to overturn the closer official on a goal it's going to review anyway, so just let them decide whether it's conclusive or not.

So there is a camera directly behind all the officials at every point in the game no matter where the ref is on the ice? Come on man. That's not common sense. That's just nuts. There is no way the refs and the camers have the exact same views all the time or even most of the time. The refs are just moving around way to much for that.

Go put a puck on the ground and put various things in front of it to represent legs, skates and sticks. Walk 75 feet away. Get the puck in view. Now Take a step to the left. You won't see the puck anymore unless your various placed objects are far apart. That one little step to the side completely changes what can be seen on the other side of those objects. That's no different than refs and camers. Thier views are not going to be identical.

A review should not decide a play if the review is inconclusive and a 2nd ref is positive. These guys are not going to overturn the closest ref without being 100% sure.

Closest ref, "no goal. He kicked it in"
Back ref, "did you see him get his stick under the goalies pad and tap it in after kicking it"
Closest ref, "no. The puck disappeared from my sight after he kicked it. You sure he touched it before the puck crossed the line?"
Back ref, "Absolutely".
 

Foppa2118

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So there is a camera directly behind all the officials at every point in the game no matter where the ref is on the ice? Come on man. That's not common sense. That's just nuts. There is no way the refs and the camers have the exact same views all the time or even most of the time. The refs are just moving around way to much for that.

Go put a puck on the ground and put various things in front of it to represent legs, skates and sticks. Walk 75 feet away. Get the puck in view. Now Take a step to the left. You won't see the puck anymore unless your various placed objects are far apart. That one little step to the side completely changes what can be seen on the other side of those objects. That's no different than refs and camers. Thier views are not going to be identical.

A review should not decide a play if the review is inconclusive and a 2nd ref is positive. These guys are not going to overturn the closest ref without being 100% sure.

Closest ref, "no goal. He kicked it in"
Back ref, "did you see him get his stick under the goalies pad and tap it in after kicking it"
Closest ref, "no. The puck disappeared from my sight after he kicked it. You sure he touched it before the puck crossed the line?"
Back ref, "Absolutely".

Ignoring the clear strawman in your first sentence, your second paragraph is a perfect example of why you should rely on the multiple cameras from similar vantage points with the ability to slow mo and zoom, rather than the one pair of eyes in real time.

I'm done with this discussion, because I know where you want to take it.
 

Tweaky

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That is not a straw man argument, you stated "cameras positioned directly behind the back official." That says to me that for every spot on the ice the official could be, there is a camera directly behind him. The entire row of seats on the glass would have to be cameramen for that to be the case. Though with cell phones, it is probably not far off at times, but the NHL cannot use those to make a call. :)

I know for a fact that a slight movement can change your sightlines ... there have been many times on the ice, and on the bench especially, where I had a clear view of a play (goal, high stick, trip, etc.) where the guy two spots down or 5 feet away did not see it at all. Also, there's only a couple cameras at ice level to give that particular angle (low angle can help, as it is easier to see through legs/feet than it is through torsos). Until there is an infinite number of cameras to cover every possible angle (though tech is getting to the point that imbedding CCDs into the dasher..could make it close), we are stuck with what we have: an imperfect system, but the best we can come up with for now.
 

Tweaky

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As for kicking the puck in... part of the point of the rule is to keep people from flailing feet at the goalie. There end up being guys on their bellies in the crease a ton, due to the nature of that spot. And the goalie is always one of them (or at least down low, maybe not laying down). You start letting people kick goals, then a goalie will have feet flying at him every scrum...and a kick from a skated foot carries a ton more force than a stick blade. There would be broken goalies all the time.

My opinion is that any goal scored off a lower leg (knee down) or arm (shoulder down) should not count. No kicking motion BS, no intent questions, nada. If the last thing it hits before crossing the goal line (or deflecting off a goalie/post and in) is a foot/shin or hand/arm of an attacking player...then no goal. Makes the calls a bit more clear, removes some room for judgment errors.
 

Foppa2118

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That is not a straw man argument, you stated "cameras positioned directly behind the back official." That says to me that for every spot on the ice the official could be, there is a camera directly behind him. The entire row of seats on the glass would have to be cameramen for that to be the case. Though with cell phones, it is probably not far off at times, but the NHL cannot use those to make a call. :)

I know for a fact that a slight movement can change your sightlines ... there have been many times on the ice, and on the bench especially, where I had a clear view of a play (goal, high stick, trip, etc.) where the guy two spots down or 5 feet away did not see it at all. Also, there's only a couple cameras at ice level to give that particular angle (low angle can help, as it is easier to see through legs/feet than it is through torsos). Until there is an infinite number of cameras to cover every possible angle (though tech is getting to the point that imbedding CCDs into the dasher..could make it close), we are stuck with what we have: an imperfect system, but the best we can come up with for now.

[MOD] The back officials stand roughly in the same spot on every play by the blueline. There's cameras along the glass by the bluelines, there's also cameras on multiple other spots of the rink.

And yes, instead of arguing against that point, but rather arguing against the idea of there being a "camera directly behind all the officials at every point in the game no matter where the ref is on the ice" is a straw man.
 
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Tweaky

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http://www.infographicsarchive.com/...ositions-and-responsibilities/#prettyPhoto/0/

Scroll down to the JLA image. Finite number of cameras, with only 3 ice level (plus an occasional roaming handheld). Even if there are cameras on both blue lines, they are not at both sides of each line, and the trailing ref has to switch back and forth, and of course may be in the middle when a play happens.

You said if there is a camera directly behind the ref, then it can be used to make a better call. And yes, you are right. What we are saying is that there are many many spots the ref can be where the camera does not have the same angle, and that often the ref has the better one ('cause, you know, the ref positioning hasn't been worked out over the course of the sport to be optimal for making the correct calls or anything).
 

Tweaky

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To be clear, I am a fan of video review, and think it should be used as much as possible to make correct calls. In cases like this one, however, I think the refs should have to announce the call before going to review, that way the announcers and fans watching replays have an idea of what to look for as far as "conclusive evidence." Sucks to be watching thinking Avs scored, call on ice seemed to be goal , review is iffy, but no way enough to overturn...then goal is waved off with announcement of call on ice stands, no goal, because they changed it in conference. If the call on ice changes, or is in question, announce it. This is just a fan friendly way to do it.
 

Foppa2118

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http://www.infographicsarchive.com/...ositions-and-responsibilities/#prettyPhoto/0/

Scroll down to the JLA image. Finite number of cameras, with only 3 ice level (plus an occasional roaming handheld). Even if there are cameras on both blue lines, they are not at both sides of each line, and the trailing ref has to switch back and forth, and of course may be in the middle when a play happens.

You said if there is a camera directly behind the ref, then it can be used to make a better call. And yes, you are right. What we are saying is that there are many many spots the ref can be where the camera does not have the same angle, and that often the ref has the better one ('cause, you know, the ref positioning hasn't been worked out over the course of the sport to be optimal for making the correct calls or anything).

I'll continue this with you, because I sense we can have a different type of discussion.

That's a good chart to show some of the angles, but we know those cameras from that company don't represent all the cameras at the leagues disposal. They have access to the arena cams, the NHL's cams, and each broadcasting stations cams.

For instance we know there are more than a few angles not pointed out in that chart from past knowledge, and also this video from the situation room.

[NHL]225265[/NHL]

Specifically at :34 just for a split second they show an angle that looks to be lined up with the redline at center ice but is near the top of the glass level, not one of the two cameras in the upper level in that chart. I believe they also show this lower red line cam for faceoffs sometimes during tv broadcasts.

Then at :38, in the bottom right corner, there's an angle that looks like it's inside the blue line at near ice level.

Also that chart shows the cameras behind the net, but doesn't show the cameras above the net, which we know is over both goals.

There's also a goal line cam that's not on that chart, that we've all seen before, and you can see at 1:15 in the video.

Then there's an angle they show at 1:39 that's clearly not one of the angles behind the net, because it's at ice level, below the glass, from the other end of the rink.

We also know there are cameras along the benches that pick up the play on the ice.

There are also cameras in the penalty boxes.

Now an angle like the penalty box cam isn't going to help goal reviews, but it shows that chart isn't nearly complete with all the camera angles the league has access to. I have feeling there's even more than in the video too, but that's just a hunch.

Also, Rogers added six new angles this year to the games they will be doing, including ref cams, and an arial cam.

If it were an issue where maybe there were just a couple cameras along the blueline, maybe you could argue that the back official might do just as good or better of a job at judging the play on ice from 75 feet away, because like you said one angle could be obstructed.

But my point is that with the sheer volume of camera angles, and the ability to slow mo, and zoom in HD, and that they're higher and less likely to be obstructed by legs and sticks at ice level, it has to be considered a more accurate way to over turn the original refs call close to the play.

It's just highly unlikely that all the angles will be obstructed, and the ref outside the blueline will have the golden sightline. That's kinda like the magic bullet theory.

If the cameras have that much better of a chance at seeing the play, and they can't conclusively see it, then they simply shouldn't let the outside ref with one angle at ice level, in real time, over turn the original call. The chances that he both saw it better than all the cameras, and got it right at real speed, while the closer ref got it wrong, are very minuscule I think.
 

Foppa2118

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Also, just a thought, but maybe we could move this discussion to the trade thread, or maybe the out of town scoreboard thread (since we don't really have a general hockey thread). I think it's an interesting issue, and a relevant one since it's arguably burned us twice now, but we probably don't need to keep bumping this old GDT if it's going to continue.
 

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