Post-Game Talk: GAME #79: Canucks 3 vs. Stars 2 (S/O)

TruGr1t

Proper Villain
Jun 26, 2003
23,140
6,819
This tank chatter is so out of touch.

Ok - we know. I'm sure everyone in all hockey organizations know. You can look at the draft board and see the team slipping down with every win. Barring a lottery, we're only getting a worse draft spot with no playoffs.

That doesn't make it a priority above winning games and playing the right way. If a fan's priority for the team is the draft now that playoffs aren't possible, that's understandable. But it's important to remember that the organization's priority and player's priority will always be to win games - and for good reason. If you let up, it's an excuse and there's no buts about it. That slide towards accepting failure or even mediocrity lets people off the hook. It's much more important that it remains a square examination of, "Can you do what it takes?" and that the message remain consistent.

It's ok to have a different priority than the players and coaches and so on, but it's no good begrudging them the good ethic that their jobs entail.

It's fine to begrudge bad management though. And this is all about terrible, terrible organizational management.

Everything said about this team has to be taken in the context that it was built to make the playoffs.
 

MadaCanuckle

Registered User
Jun 25, 2012
2,092
922
Lisboa
This tank chatter is so out of touch.

Ok - we know. I'm sure everyone in all hockey organizations know. You can look at the draft board and see the team slipping down with every win. Barring a lottery, we're only getting a worse draft spot with no playoffs.

That doesn't make it a priority above winning games and playing the right way. If a fan's priority for the team is the draft now that playoffs aren't possible, that's understandable. But it's important to remember that the organization's priority and player's priority will always be to win games - and for good reason. If you let up, it's an excuse and there's no buts about it. That slide towards accepting failure or even mediocrity lets people off the hook. It's much more important that it remains a square examination of, "Can you do what it takes?" and that the message remain consistent.

It's ok to have a different priority than the players and coaches and so on, but it's no good begrudging them the good ethic that their jobs entail.

Yes it does make it a priority. These wins don't mean anything, because if they meant some sort of help next year, in the past three years we could see fruits of that mentality. We just see the same mediocrity, as you say, as the actual worst team in the NHL in the past 4 years.

But let's get to the point of the organization priority is to win games. If it was true, we would see some sort of development in our entire team, not just in three or four players. Can you explain why the organization didn't took any measure to avoid all this losing in the past four years? Can you explain why the organization doesn't commit to an actual plan of rebuilding and allows pitty excuses as injuries (Dallas, New Jersey, Arizona or Anaheim laugh out hard with that one) or unexpected results (they were expected if some people look at some stats, but they avoid it like the plague) to justify their failures?

The message that the owner sends to the team is: you can be a complete failure and yet your job is safe. And there's people with 3M/4M/6M contracts who float around an entire regular season, with little to no pressure to produce. So, you can't talk about "playing the right way" or "acceptance of failure or mediocrity" because the mediocrity starts on top and shows a poor example how players should handle themselves.

If you want to show a good example, start cleaning house, save for Brackett and Gradin. Hire competent people who can put a good plan in place and then you can ask something to anyone. Until then, you lay your head down and thank God every single day for having a dream job, receiving millions, doing poorly and not getting canned as you should.
 
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Var

Registered User
Nov 10, 2007
319
93
Yes it does make it a priority. These wins don't mean anything, because if they meant some sort of help next year, in the past three years we could see fruits of that mentality. We just see the same mediocrity, as you say, as the actual worst team in the NHL in the past 4 years.

But let's get to the point of the organization priority is to win games. If it was true, we would see some sort of development in our entire team, not just in three or four players. Can you explain why the organization didn't took any measure to avoid all this losing in the past four years? Can you explain why the organization doesn't commit to an actual plan of rebuilding and allows pitty excuses as injuries (Dallas, New Jersey, Arizona or Anaheim laugh out hard with that one) or unexpected results (they were expected if some people look at some stats, but they avoid it like the plague) to justify their failures?

The message that the owner sends to the team is: you can be a complete failure and yet your job is safe. And there's people with 3M/4M/6M contracts who float around an entire regular season, with little to no pressure to produce. So, you can't talk about "playing the right way" or "acceptance of failure or mediocrity" because the mediocrity starts on top and shows a poor example how players should handle themselves.

If you want to show a good example, start cleaning house, save for Brackett and Gradin. Hire competent people who can put a good plan in place and then you can ask something to anyone. Until then, you lay your head down and thank God every single day for having a dream job, receiving millions, doing poorly and not getting canned as you should.

What you quoted was a post directed at people that were upset about Markstrom's strong performance and were hoping we'd be throwing the current games because they're meaningless. I think if you give it another once over, you'll find it's not the shining reflection of management you're imagining it to be.

I understand you're frustrated with various things. Contract's like Erikson's are really bad obviously although I'm not sure you've appropriately balanced that frustration with the successful draft record the club has had recently.
 
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hookshott

Registered User
Dec 13, 2016
566
363
What you quoted was a post directed at people that were upset about Markstrom's strong performance and were hoping we'd be throwing the current games because they're meaningless. I think if you give it another once over, you'll find it's not the shining reflection of management you're imagining it to be.

I understand you're frustrated with various things. Contract's like Erikson's are really bad obviously although I'm not sure you've appropriately balanced that frustration with the successful draft record the club has had recently.
These are 2 separate situations....one is not dependent on another...so they do not require "balance".
 

MadaCanuckle

Registered User
Jun 25, 2012
2,092
922
Lisboa
What you quoted was a post directed at people that were upset about Markstrom's strong performance and were hoping we'd be throwing the current games because they're meaningless. I think if you give it another once over, you'll find it's not the shining reflection of management you're imagining it to be.

I understand you're frustrated with various things. Contract's like Erikson's are really bad obviously although I'm not sure you've appropriately balanced that frustration with the successful draft record the club has had recently.
What I quoted was a general assessment, and rereading it, I came to the same conclusion.

I am frustrated with incompetence, just that. And that millions of people fight for their jobs, and a complete idiot, who was at best a passable draft record (2014 and 2016 are... questionable, to avoid a more accurate and insulting term), keeps his job doing blunder after blunder. So no, it's not only one contract, or just a missed pick. It's a complete crap of a job done by someone who simply does not possess the intelligence or the vision to build a Stanley Cup contender, who should actually be the only motto for the Canucks. Not only playoffs - or I may say, mediocrity at its best - but build a Stanley Cup contender. And you missed your point entirely.
 
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Hyack57

Registered User
Aug 6, 2004
5,520
240
Airdrie, AB
I don’t get the hate for Markstrom being good. I’ll take a goalie who’s found his game to build a young team around over a young unproven goalie and hoping he develops at the same rate as my young forward group. And if that young goalie isn’t developing at the right rate then having to trade a young asset in order to find a more developed veteran goalie.
 

timw33

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Nov 18, 2007
25,731
19,486
Victoria
I didn't realize there was Markstrom hate. How bizarre.

I think it's misplaced hate for how Green/Mgmt have chosen to deploy their players after being eliminated. Demko should be getting the bulk of the starts so we can evaluate him for next year. Hughes' minutes should increase and he should be tried in all situations so we can get a head start on next year.

Like, there's no risk. Just play the young players and see what they can do, there's zero downside. This time of the year you need to coach for the future, not the present.
 

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
21,242
14,414
Markstrom has been excellent since December, he's not comparable to the Erikssons and Schallers of the world who have only turned it on in garbage time.
Reality is, without Markstrom's goaltending down the stretch, this team would easily be jockeying with the Sens for dead last overall. I can count at least 6-8 games and maybe even 10, where there's no way they pick up any points without his 10-bell saves. And in OT and the shootout, he's virtually unbeatable.

So I would say more than any other player, Markstrom is the reason the Canucks are likely drafting in the 8-10 hole and risk falling out of the top-10 altogether.

But how can you blame the guy? For almost a decade, he's been talked about as the the next great NHL goalie....except that he never was when it counted. Now, at the very least the Canucks are rock solid between the pipes, which might be the most important position on an NHL team.

And either Markstrom or Demko could be a very valuable trading chip....but of course that assume Jimbo could actually swing a home-run deal.
 

hookshott

Registered User
Dec 13, 2016
566
363
Are you trying to say there's no point in balancing criticism with appreciation?
There is no "appreciation" needed for choosing the consensus best pick available the last 2 years. 99% of the people on these Boards, would have made the same selections....but we don't get paid the big bucks!
 
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Billy Kvcmu

Registered User
Dec 5, 2014
27,492
15,862
West Vancouver
It's because he lights the world on fire when we don't need wins. But when we start with a fresh slate next season and a chance at the playoffs and you need him to be good, you just know he'll be back to the Markstrom of old and letting in soft goals again. Just the way it is in Vancouver. Play well when it doesn't count.
Wth is this ?
Markstrom has been excellent since early December, in fact he has been decent for two straight seasons already
btw, he's not even 30 yet, he probably still has 6 more good years in him, stop with this "not part of the future" BS
 

TruGr1t

Proper Villain
Jun 26, 2003
23,140
6,819
You can't really blame Markstrom. He's playing well and thus wants to play.

I can, however, complain about playing Alex Edler nearly 30 minutes for some reason?? Why are you trying to kill Edler, Travis Green? Why?
 

Var

Registered User
Nov 10, 2007
319
93
There is no "appreciation" needed for choosing the consensus best pick available the last 2 years. 99% of the people on these Boards, would have made the same selections....but we don't get paid the big bucks!

That's not true. The way to approach it isn't to assume that good moves by management are easy and obvious and that the ones you hate were because of stupidity. In that scenario, the best manager alive would be an idiot. It's an unintelligent approach.
 

hookshott

Registered User
Dec 13, 2016
566
363
That's not true. The way to approach it isn't to assume that good moves by management are easy and obvious and that the ones you hate were because of stupidity. In that scenario, the best manager alive would be an idiot. It's an unintelligent approach.
Thank you for setting me straight!
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,799
4,016
This tank chatter is so out of touch.

Ok - we know. I'm sure everyone in all hockey organizations know. You can look at the draft board and see the team slipping down with every win. Barring a lottery, we're only getting a worse draft spot with no playoffs.

That doesn't make it a priority above winning games and playing the right way. If a fan's priority for the team is the draft now that playoffs aren't possible, that's understandable. But it's important to remember that the organization's priority and player's priority will always be to win games - and for good reason. If you let up, it's an excuse and there's no buts about it. That slide towards accepting failure or even mediocrity lets people off the hook. It's much more important that it remains a square examination of, "Can you do what it takes?" and that the message remain consistent.

It's ok to have a different priority than the players and coaches and so on, but it's no good begrudging them the good ethic that their jobs entail.

I don't think anyone's asking the players to intentionally throw games here. But to ride vets like Edler and Markstrom into the ground to try and squeeze out a few wins to make themselves look better in the standings is meaningless and doesn't do anything to help the long-term future of the team. This is the time to give the young guns all the ice time in the world to see what they're capable of and how they'd like in big roles to help project for next season as well.

Since we're officially eliminated, there is nothing to lose in terms of the standings and can only help with the development of guys like Hughes, Demko or Gaudette. If they make mistakes and cause us to lose, so be it. At least they have an opportunity now to learn from those mistakes.

Basically people here are questioning management and coaching.
 
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Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
I don't think anyone's asking the players to intentionally throw games here. But to ride vets like Edler and Markstrom into the ground to try and squeeze out a few wins to make themselves look better in the standings is meaningless and doesn't do anything to help the long-term future of the team. This is the time to give the young guns all the ice time in the world to see what they're capable of and how they'd like in big roles to help project for next season as well.

Since we're officially eliminated, there is nothing to lose in terms of the standings and can only help with the development of guys like Hughes, Demko or Gaudette. If they make mistakes and cause us to lose, so be it. At least they have an opportunity now to learn from those mistakes.

Basically people here are questioning management and coaching.

They know perfectly well that nobody is asking the players to lose. It's classic disingenuous trolling via strawman. Better to just ignore.
 

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