Post-Game Talk: Game 7 loss in OT - END of an ERA

[Zbynek]

I can guarantee you there is not.

Why?

 

[vikingGoalie]

So it's kinda an *in* thing to say sullivan must go. He certainly makes a few decisions at times that I wonder at. BUT. Ask yourself, how do you measure the success of the coach? If you say wins and only wins you are not looking at the whole picture.
We DOMINATED the rangers. We had a higher xGF% then we did in 2016 when ran roughshod over everyone. I don't think some here totally seem to get just how much we blew our chance this year and last. This team was poised to go on a run. Even with the Malkin looking like he's done at times. Even with Rakell getting knocked out and losing Crosby in game 5. The expected goals for we were almost a full goal ahead every game or more! High danger chances were something over 60% in that category.

The only difference, we were playing a guy that's 30 years old and never even locked down a role as a backup in the NHL. In our organization he was at best #4 on the depth chart. Last year DeSmith was hurt for the playoffs, this year he got hurt in the playoffs and he's not a spring chicken anymore either (he's 30 as well). Jarry has some potential no doubt, but has yet to put an entire season together or show us anything in the playoffs that encourages me.

Once again. The coach put the players in a position to succeed, they rattled the vezina winner. The guy that is currently stoning the Hurricanes. We scored enough that we should've won the series in 5. Instead goaltending sunk us.

I think this is the last time we can get that ship going again at that level, hope to be wrong. Look at rangers vs canes. The canes are beatable, i think we would've smoked them crosby could be back to 100% and maybe Jarry is a bit further along in his recovery. But still who knows Jarry could've turned back into a pumpkin again.

If our management does nothing about goaltending then you know we are not trying to make another run.

 

[ChaosAgent]

So it's kinda an *in* thing to say sullivan must go. He certainly makes a few decisions at times that I wonder at. BUT. Ask yourself, how do you measure the success of the coach? If you say wins and only wins you are not looking at the whole picture.
We DOMINATED the rangers. We had a higher xGF% then we did in 2016 when ran roughshod over everyone. I don't think some here totally seem to get just how much we blew our chance this year and last. This team was poised to go on a run. Even with the Malkin looking like he's done at times. Even with Rakell getting knocked out and losing Crosby in game 5. The expected goals for we were almost a full goal ahead every game or more! High danger chances were something over 60% in that category.

The only difference, we were playing a guy that's 30 years old and never even locked down a role as a backup in the NHL. In our organization he was at best #4 on the depth chart. Last year DeSmith was hurt for the playoffs, this year he got hurt in the playoffs and he's not a spring chicken anymore either (he's 30 as well). Jarry has some potential no doubt, but has yet to put an entire season together or show us anything in the playoffs that encourages me.

Once again. The coach put the players in a position to succeed, they rattled the vezina winner. The guy that is currently stoning the Hurricanes. We scored enough that we should've won the series in 5. Instead goaltending sunk us.

I think this is the last time we can get that ship going again at that level, hope to be wrong. Look at rangers vs canes. The canes are beatable, i think we would've smoked them crosby could be back to 100% and maybe Jarry is a bit further along in his recovery. But still who knows Jarry could've turned back into a pumpkin again.

If our management does nothing about goaltending then you know we are not trying to make another run.

Goaltending but also special teams.

I think our passive joke of a PK would have fared better against Carolina but not much.
It was increasingly obvious through the year that the PK was a paper tiger that racked up good games against bad teams but could be dominated by a skilled, cohesive PP.

Not to mention the PP1 which...did it even outscore the opposition? Sid, Geno, Tanger are all-time greats but a good top of the umbrella collectively? No.

Goaltending was bad luck. And I guess bad decision-making if Jarry isn't your guy.
But the special teams was self-inflicted wounds all over the place.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Goaltending but also special teams.

I think our passive joke of a PK would have fared better against Carolina but not much.
It was increasingly obvious through the year that the PK was a paper tiger that racked up good games against bad teams but could be dominated by a skilled, cohesive PP.

Not to mention the PP1 which...did it even outscore the opposition? Sid, Geno, Tanger are all-time greats but a good top of the umbrella collectively? No.

Goaltending was bad luck. And I guess bad decision-making if Jarry isn't your guy.
But the special teams was self-inflicted wounds all over the place.

Agreed with what you are saying. But even with all those weaknesses we still out played the rangers and if our goaltending was just competent we win going away. Heck last summer Raanta signed for 2M! There were goalies to be had if we were willing to part with either DeSmith or Jarry. Or attempt to bury DeSmith in the AHL. You know the guy that just posted up a .964% game against the rangers tonight...

 

[ZorkEnchanter]

I can guarantee you there is not.

And there shouldn't be, Trotz is not the coaching change we need.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Agreed with what you are saying. But even with all those weaknesses we still out played the rangers and if our goaltending was just competent we win going away. Heck last summer Raanta signed for 2M! There were goalies to be had if we were willing to part with either DeSmith or Jarry. Or attempt to bury DeSmith in the AHL. You know the guy that just posted up a .964% game against the rangers tonight...

With all that said, CDS was playing really well when he went down and Jarry was good this year.

Should they have upgraded on CDS? Maybe. Hindsight is 20/20.

If we wanna get weird and move Jarry this year while signing Fleury I wouldn't be opposed. Jarry is one of like 3 tradeable players with value on this team.

 

[HuskerTornado]

With all that said, CDS was playing really well when he went down and Jarry was good this year.

Should they have upgraded on CDS? Maybe. Hindsight is 20/20.

If we wanna get weird and move Jarry this year while signing Fleury I wouldn't be opposed. Jarry is one of like 3 tradeable players with value on this team.

DeSmith was poor most of the regular season, though, which caused Jarry to need to start more games than they wanted. DeSmith did play much better at the tail end of the season.

 

[Zbynek]

And there shouldn't be, Trotz is not the coaching change we need.

Literally why though. Can you provide any reason? No hate.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

So this is a business. We have a Cap. It doesn't make sense to pay him like a top player in the league if he's not. The regular season is fun and all, and is important, but I want players who can step it up in the playoffs and produce. Malkin is making noises that he wants to stay and money is not the biggest consideration, but in the same breath he also said that if he plays somewhere else next season is his fine with that. So who knows what he's really thinking.

If he wants 9.5M again, you politely thank him for his time as a penguin and show him the door. If he wants 7M and down for a couple of years (to match up with when Sid's contract is up) then fine. Personally I think a hometown discount is more in line with 6M/year and would be willing to to do 6M x 3 knowing full well that last year is likely to be dead money.

I will say it again. We NEED better goal tending. We had a ridiculous set of circumstances but once again we are bounced out of the playoffs where our expected GF% was better then our 2016 run!!!! we were a buzz saw in 2016. I'm even ok with trading Jarry and Desmith away if we think we can improve the position. Jarry was great at times and sure he was hurt in game 7. But in the it's a cruel world vein, he was really just ok. Wasn't bad (at all) but I still think 2 of those goals that went in on him don't go in on Igor (game 7 version that is). Nor do they go in any playoff goalie that is playing really well. once again I know he was hurt and had not seen action in a month. But if management is thinking they want to push one more time for a playoff push they have to address this postion. It's a cryin shame that Lindberg was hurt. I think he has some promise but too early to really know.

Malkin doesn’t owe anyone a hometown discount of 6m when the going rate for a player of his caliber is easily 8-8.5.

It’s fine if people want him to walk, and I don’t think we can afford him at that money (I was in 7-7.5 range), but this notion that he owes the team a massive discount is crazy. They don’t owe each other anything other than respect after 16 years.

You know it’s the offseason on HF when we’re talking about trading our stud goalie for a 36 year old and exchanging Mike Sullivan for Barry f***ing Trotz

 

[Pens x]

So it's kinda an *in* thing to say sullivan must go. He certainly makes a few decisions at times that I wonder at. BUT. Ask yourself, how do you measure the success of the coach? If you say wins and only wins you are not looking at the whole picture.
We DOMINATED the rangers. We had a higher xGF% then we did in 2016 when ran roughshod over everyone. I don't think some here totally seem to get just how much we blew our chance this year and last. This team was poised to go on a run. Even with the Malkin looking like he's done at times. Even with Rakell getting knocked out and losing Crosby in game 5. The expected goals for we were almost a full goal ahead every game or more! High danger chances were something over 60% in that category.

The only difference, we were playing a guy that's 30 years old and never even locked down a role as a backup in the NHL. In our organization he was at best #4 on the depth chart. Last year DeSmith was hurt for the playoffs, this year he got hurt in the playoffs and he's not a spring chicken anymore either (he's 30 as well). Jarry has some potential no doubt, but has yet to put an entire season together or show us anything in the playoffs that encourages me.

Once again. The coach put the players in a position to succeed, they rattled the vezina winner. The guy that is currently stoning the Hurricanes. We scored enough that we should've won the series in 5. Instead goaltending sunk us.

I think this is the last time we can get that ship going again at that level, hope to be wrong. Look at rangers vs canes. The canes are beatable, i think we would've smoked them crosby could be back to 100% and maybe Jarry is a bit further along in his recovery. But still who knows Jarry could've turned back into a pumpkin again.

If our management does nothing about goaltending then you know we are not trying to make another run.

The problem is that we haven’t won a playoff series since 2018. It’s always something with this team come playoff time. BuT We DOmiNAtEd! Look at the heat maps and charts!

I’m so sick of losing the actual series but winning the analytics battle. Maybe Sully needs to adjust his system so that it doesn’t cater to a guy like Evan Rodrigues.

Hextall screwed up by not bringing in someone else besides DeSmith. Anyone with half of a brain should have known he didn’t do enough last off season with the roster.

Here we are, one and done yet again, desperately defending Sullivan. It’s not his fault! Sully has way too much say in roster management - that needs to change when Hextall gets canned this summer.

Covid playoffs were a fluke
Injuries
We were tired
Hot goaltending
Bad goaltending

Hopefully, next year’s excuse will at least be a new one. Two back to back years relying on the poor goaltending card. No one mentions how pathetic our specials teams were because that would fall on the coaching.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

So it's kinda an *in* thing to say sullivan must go. He certainly makes a few decisions at times that I wonder at. BUT. Ask yourself, how do you measure the success of the coach? If you say wins and only wins you are not looking at the whole picture.
We DOMINATED the rangers. We had a higher xGF% then we did in 2016 when ran roughshod over everyone. I don't think some here totally seem to get just how much we blew our chance this year and last. This team was poised to go on a run. Even with the Malkin looking like he's done at times. Even with Rakell getting knocked out and losing Crosby in game 5. The expected goals for we were almost a full goal ahead every game or more! High danger chances were something over 60% in that category.

The only difference, we were playing a guy that's 30 years old and never even locked down a role as a backup in the NHL. In our organization he was at best #4 on the depth chart. Last year DeSmith was hurt for the playoffs, this year he got hurt in the playoffs and he's not a spring chicken anymore either (he's 30 as well). Jarry has some potential no doubt, but has yet to put an entire season together or show us anything in the playoffs that encourages me.

Once again. The coach put the players in a position to succeed, they rattled the vezina winner. The guy that is currently stoning the Hurricanes. We scored enough that we should've won the series in 5. Instead goaltending sunk us.

I think this is the last time we can get that ship going again at that level, hope to be wrong. Look at rangers vs canes. The canes are beatable, i think we would've smoked them crosby could be back to 100% and maybe Jarry is a bit further along in his recovery. But still who knows Jarry could've turned back into a pumpkin again.

If our management does nothing about goaltending then you know we are not trying to make another run.

During the series I kinda felt the same thing: Sully did everything he could do. He had a TON of injuries and made the best meal he could given the ingredients.

But after some reflection, man the special teams blew ass. He rolled out Boyle to try to take away Fox. That was a disaster. He did not modify his PK at all.

The PP was impotent and again no changes or counter to what the Rags were doing. I don't know the exact splits but I think PP2 scored equal to PP1- how's that possible given the talent disparity?

So for the Special Teams fiasco alone, I think Sully should be canned (he won't)

 

[HandshakeLine]

This probably goes in the coaching thread, but why has our PK been so absolutely ineffective in the postseason for years? I understand the PP being what it is because of inertia, but we are literally stocked to the gills with guys who are what every coach claims is a good PKer (fast, mobile, defensively sound). It's one of the oddest things about this squad since the B2B.

 

[LOGiK]

Used to be a joke for awhile... Tampa was trying to be Pittsburgh south.

I think they have a much better office and people making the calls. Pittsburgh just seems clueless off and on the ice. Not clueless, just not really connected like kinda deal.

Tampa, I mean, honestly I don't follow them enough.... but isn't what they are now, what the penguins were supposed to be with all the ffffing talent they have/had iced over the years.

Very disappointing they turned into first round jokes for the better part of half a decade (defeat by joke teams, defeat by decent teams).
****fin EOS rant.

 

[Pancakes]

The problem is that we haven’t won a playoff series since 2018. It’s always something with this team come playoff time. BuT We DOmiNAtEd! Look at the heat maps and charts!

I’m so sick of losing the actual series but winning the analytics battle. Maybe Sully needs to adjust his system so that it doesn’t cater to a guy like Evan Rodrigues.

Hextall screwed up by not bringing in someone else besides DeSmith. Anyone with half of a brain should have known he didn’t do enough last off season with the roster.

Here we are, one and done yet again, desperately defending Sullivan. It’s not his fault! Sully has way too much say in roster management - that needs to change when Hextall gets canned this summer.

Covid playoffs were a fluke
Injuries
We were tired
Hot goaltending
Bad goaltending

Hopefully, next year’s excuse will at least be a new one. Two back to back years relying on the poor goaltending card. No one mentions how pathetic our specials teams were because that would fall on the coaching.

If I look at the last 5 years individually I'd say:

vs Caps: Not to be ashamed of with losing in the 2nd round to eventual cup champs. We almost won that series. Team was running on fumes.
vs Islanders: The Pens played very badly. Sully's fault.
vs Montreal: Sully's fault. Team played like trash. Covid bubble, yeah, but was up to him to get them ready to play and he couldn't do that.
vs Islanders part 2: Pens outplayed the Isles, got trash goaltending. had no backup ready to step in for Sully. Not his fault
vs Rangers: Pens dominated. Would have won in 5 or 6 with healthy goaltending and/or Crosby not missing game 5 and 6. Not his fault


I can understand why Pens management does not want to make a change even in light of the 4 straight first round exits. because the thing is, the Pens deserved better the past two years.

If anything, it's Hextall and Burke who deserve more of the blame for not having a better option for third goalie and also for not really bolstering the position in general. Maybe we win this with CDS in net had he not gotten hurt but I'm not so sure of that. Even if we do, it's clear that CDS is injury prone and the Pens should have acquired a more reliable backup just in case.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

If anything, it's Hextall and Burke who deserve more of the blame for not having a better option for third goalie and also for not really bolstering the position in general. Maybe we win this with CDS in net had he not gotten hurt but I'm not so sure of that. Even if we do, it's clear that CDS is injury prone and the Pens should have acquired a more reliable backup just in case.

How can any GM think that their #1 and #2 goalies are gonna go down in the last month of the season/playoffs? I mean I don't think that's ever happened in the history of the game. That's just not a thought that goes through anyone's mind so to develop a contingency plan around it is a bit hyperbolic.

This is especially true since Jarry and CDS had/have been relatively healthy during their careers. And they even hedged their bets a bit by signing NHL/AHL tweener Domingue.

Rip on them for the construction of the defense or wingers- that's fair game. But the goalie situation is something NO ONE could have predicted in their minds

 

[Pancakes]

How can any GM think that their #1 and #2 goalies are gonna go down in the last month of the season/playoffs? I mean I don't think that's ever happened in the history of the game. That's just not a thought that goes through anyone's mind so to develop a contingency plan around it is a bit hyperbolic.

This is especially true since Jarry and CDS had/have been relatively healthy during their careers. And they even hedged their bets a bit by signing NHL/AHL tweener Domingue.

Rip on them for the construction of the defense or wingers- that's fair game. But the goalie situation is something NO ONE could have predicted in their minds

CDS got hurt just last year so the thought of him getting hurt again wasn't out of the question.

Perhaps not having a better third goalie option is being a touch hyperbolic but...I bet Louis ranks in the bottom third of #3 goalies league wide.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

CDS got hurt just last year so the thought of him getting hurt again wasn't out of the question.

Perhaps not having a better third goalie option is being a touch hyperbolic but...I bet Louis ranks in the bottom third of #3 goalies league wide.

So because a player got hurt in the playoffs the year before means he's likely to get hurt again?
I don't follow that logic at all

Be a very different story if CDS was injury prone the entire year or in his career. Then you can cast stones all you want with some basis.

Regardless, CDS wasn't available the past 2 post seasons and the team should definitely move on from him.

And if you have data that shows Domingue was one of the worst 3rd goalies have at it. I don't think that's the case

 

[Pancakes]

So because a player got hurt in the playoffs the year before means he's likely to get hurt again?
I don't follow that logic at all

Be a very different story if CDS was injury prone the entire year or in his career. Then you can cast stones all you want with some basis.

Regardless, CDS wasn't available the past 2 post seasons and the team should definitely move on from him.

And if you have data that shows Domingue was one of the worst 3rd goalies have at it. I don't think that's the case

I don't feel like looking up every team's third string goalie situation so I'll just leave that point alone for now. I did take a look at most of the east playoff teams out of curiosity and Carolina was the only one where I would definitively say they had a better third stringer (Kyotchev or w/e). The others were all fairly similar or worse than Louis.

So, Louis was perhaps fine as a third string option.

Having said that, it still feels like they should have arguably upgraded CDS. Not just because of the injury history but because he was a little shaky for most of the year and it would have been tough to have to turn to him in the playoffs.

But hindsight is 20/20 etc

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I am definitely not a big Ron Hextall fan. I used to think Brian Burke was a great NHL executive but that was a long time ago.

That being said, how many executives will this franchise go through before they fire the head coach???

This coach has way too much power within this organization, and the GM caters to him way too much. They probably chose Hextall and told him to cater to Sullivan because Rutherford would either pick up players that were not Sullivan types or picked the wrong Sullivan types.

But what this team actually needs are non-Sullivan types in order to win again.

 

[Pancakes]

I am definitely not a big Ron Hextall fan. I used to think Brian Burke was a great NHL executive but that was a long time ago.

That being said, how many executives will this franchise go through before they fire the head coach???

This coach has way too much power within this organization, and the GM caters to him way too much. They probably chose Hextall and told him to cater to Sullivan because Rutherford would either pick up players that were not Sullivan types or picked the wrong Sullivan types.

But what this team actually needs are non-Sullivan types in order to win again.

The only thing I particularly like about Hextall's work so far is that he kept the first round pick. Our farm sorely needs a few blue chippers in it. It's time to start holding onto those picks unless we're a runaway Stanley Cup favorite at the deadline.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The only thing I particularly like about Hextall's work so far is that he kept the first round pick. Our farm sorely needs a few blue chippers in it. It's time to start holding onto those picks unless we're a runaway Stanley Cup favorite at the deadline.

I agree, but we have now set quite a low bar for liking a GM's work.

 

[Angrrus]

I understand that Kunitz scored a huge goal in 2017,but I don’t think his departure marked some huge turning point in this core’s viability

As the facts show, he (and few others) constituted the REAL leadership core in the room, and not the soft spineless moody "leadership core" of Crosby-Malkin-Letang. When those real leaders left, the team lead by "the big three" produced 5 PO series lost in a row, and 4 consecutive first round exits. The facts speak for themselves.

 

[IcedCapp]

As the facts show, he (and few others) constituted the REAL leadership core in the room, and not the soft spineless moody "leadership core" of Crosby-Malkin-Letang. When those real leaders left, the team lead by "the big three" produced 5 PO series lost in a row, and 4 consecutive first round exits. The facts speak for themselves.

homer simpson.gif

 

[vikingGoalie]

With all that said, CDS was playing really well when he went down and Jarry was good this year.

Should they have upgraded on CDS? Maybe. Hindsight is 20/20.

If we wanna get weird and move Jarry this year while signing Fleury I wouldn't be opposed. Jarry is one of like 3 tradeable players with value on this team.

well i was pretty vocal last year that we had to upgrade goal tending fwiw (nothing). I would love to Fleury in a pens uniform for nostalgia reasons. But i dunno what he's got left for one more year wild are saying they want to keep him and if it's a shoe-in starting gig he might just stay.
Thing is we don't win the 2017 cup without fleury as he was lights out and stole 2 series for us. Columbus had more and better chances as did washington and we still won because he was that good. (notice a theme here)
That said, one this board would constantly melt down after every loss with 50% saying it's not Fleury's fault, and 50% saying he should be tar'd feather'd and run out of town for a bag of pucks.
Other thing is I dunno if he can actually put together a run like he did for vegas and us again. He looked fantastic in two games for the wild in the playoffs, and quite pedestrian in two. Don't get me wrong, Fleury when he is on his game is one of the best around. I just dunno which fleury we'd have in the playoffs.
I said it last year before the playoffs and another time during this FA period that I wondered if Hextall with his LA connection would bring Quick over here. Quick was pretty good for the Kings in the playoffs.

Goal tending is key in the playoffs you can't win a round without decent, you can't win a cup without a goalie that can steal a few games or maybe even a series along the way. It just is what it is. I really like Lindberg as a signing but it's far to early know what we go there.