Post-Game Talk: Game 6: Coincidence? I think not.

[JaegerDice]

The big concern with Toews last season was not his production, but his possession numbers.

Thus far this season, his possession numbers are back to a 2014-2015 level (above actually, he's currently rocking a gaudy 57.5% CF). If that continues production will come and his impact on goal differential will remain strong (currently rocking a 62% GF%). And impact on goal differential is what he was paid for, not raw production.

If the Blackhawks wanted raw production out of him, they'd give him the same sheltered, almost exclusively offensive zone starts that they give the Kane line. But that's not his job description.

 

[piteus]

The big concern with Toews last season was not his production, but his possession numbers.

Thus far this season, his possession numbers are back to a 2014-2015 level (above actually, he's currently rocking a gaudy 57.5% CF). If that continues production will come and his impact on goal differential will remain strong (currently rocking a 62% GF%). And impact on goal differential is what he was paid for, not raw production.

If the Blackhawks wanted raw production out of him, they'd give him the same sheltered, almost exclusively offensive zone starts that they give the Kane line. But that's not his job description.

Good point. Toews is one of the those players you can only appreciate with advanced analytics and Cups. He still needs to score more goals, but some [mod] will always only point to his goal/assist total ... +/- rating.

 

[BobbyJet]

If the Blackhawks wanted raw production out of him, they'd give him the same sheltered, almost exclusively offensive zone starts that they give the Kane line. But that's not his job description.

Exactly. Toews is playing just like Toews is supposed to play. As long as he stays healthy there is no concern from me.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Toews' linemates have 8pts and 4pts. He hasn't been rewarded for his contribution to that line as of yet, but it will come. Less worried about him and his line right now than I was at the same point last year.

 

[hawksfan50]

The big concern with Toews last season was not his production, but his possession numbers.

Thus far this season, his possession numbers are back to a 2014-2015 level (above actually, he's currently rocking a gaudy 57.5% CF). If that continues production will come and his impact on goal differential will remain strong (currently rocking a 62% GF%). And impact on goal differential is what he was paid for, not raw production.

If the Blackhawks wanted raw production out of him, they'd give him the same sheltered, almost exclusively offensive zone starts that they give the Kane line. But that's not his job description.

So he is not paid for "raw production"...but you assure us the production will come if he continues his good possesion numbers...But to do that he must convert all his "cannot quite" episodes to finishes and perfect passes ..because so far the "cannot quite " botched he is making are piling up to horrific production projections for a guy at his pay level...even kids on other teams are finishing or passing better ...possession and faceoffs I will give you..but AT SOME POINT your big star players have to PROMISE. ..right now Toews skill levels look "raw:indeed...cannot quite get his stick there. For tap in...cannot quite get the pass over to the open guy to let thay guy tap in or shoot in...cannot quite skate by any D-man ...cannot quite pressure. on the pk..cannot quite...and on it goes..The only thing he is excelling at is faceoffs and ES possession ...but not so good on specialty assignments nor actual production..Do you know any other team willing to pay a $10.5 million cap hit for almost zero production and poor specialty teams Results...to pay just for faceoffs and time eating possession in ES? To pay for not "starring"?

BUT you assure me the raw. Production will come..and it probably will..and fee all last season he spurt ed big for about 6 weeks in the December to Mid-January period. .but the majority of the season was a few and far between kind of production impact from him..So "starring:for 6 weeks outbox am 82 game season and meh to poir the rest of the time of such season..we are supposed to laud that kind of inconsistent production?

 

[Thucydides]

Panik is a machine in front of the net. Him and Motte should get some PP time.

 

[piteus]

Toews' linemates have 8pts and 4pts. He hasn't been rewarded for his contribution to that line as of yet, but it will come. Less worried about him and his line right now than I was at the same point last year.

It would have been nice to see Vesey with Toews. So close ... but no cigar.

 

[hawksfan50]

OK ...I will concede Toews has had a slow start ...FYI..I looked up last season's start for him..after 6 GP he had 3 assists and Zero goals...so he is actually under last season's pace already!

He did not get a goal until game #8...SO I guess I have to give him 1 more game to get off the Schneid?

Course if he goes 12 or 15 games without a goal ..Then you will all be calling for Q to bag-skate him!

In any case we must ask ...Why such slow starts for him 2 seasons in a row?

WE got the short summer /tired excuse last season ..but cannot hide on that one this season..

To score goals in this league you either go to the front of the net for tip in deflectiobs and rebound tap in goals...or you get clear if checks and get off good release shots from good scoring areas. or you skate fast and get 2 on or break-away chances..He has not skated fast enough to earn the latter 2 types...he also has shown few good release shot from Getti g clear from checks...So it leaves on ly the net front deflection and tap in from rebounds that you expect he might get a few goals on if his inability to skate faster to release good shots or get break-away and 2 on 1s does not improve.Will these other types improve via his urgency and skating g faster? HOPE SO..because if only the net front tyoe goals are coming then he has to turn into Holston to get enough of thise to reach his normal range.The hope though is that he does pick up his urgency and skating to get more of the other types of goal scoring gchances and that he starts burying those chances...but to me not skating at an "A " level to get clear from checks and get 2 on and break-away chances is proof of if not a lazy streak in him...at least an unwillingness tp push himself to his best limits ...as if waiting for something to hapoen as a gift to him will occur just because he is supoised to be a top star..I guess with these slow starts ,once he feels embarrassed by his lack of scoring he will then leave the Country Club and Exert to his "A" effort...that will show in increased speed and Then his scoring will pick up from more shots and better shots and more ability to get away from his checkers.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Forsling had 2nd most TOI among defenders with 23:18

I think its pretty clear now that Q really likes the kid and that it wasn't fluff what we heard in preseason

Rare time both Bowman/Q are on same page with regard to young defender

 

[Idionym]

Forsling had 2nd most TOI among defenders with 23:18

I think its pretty clear now that Q really likes the kid and that it wasn't fluff what we heard in preseason

Rare time both Bowman/Q are on same page with regard to young defender

That's pretty awesome.

I haven't been able to watch the recent games (I can only watch nationally televised ones). How has he been looking with the increased playing time?

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Struggled a little last game but overall has been making safe plays and doesn't look out of place

I prefer him over Kempny who's TOI has declined and who seems to be struggling a bit right now

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Was obviously busy with the Hawks game last night so just read through this for some entertainment... did not disappoint.

 

[Bubba88]

Toews and Panik should get Schmaltz on their wing. This would be a great line from the 6 games seen so far. Motte with Krüger and Hossa.

 

[Backyard Hockey]

6 games and an OT in and no goals by Toews and one by Kane. Regardless how you slice it, that's not good. Kane gets a pass because his line has performed and
he's collecting assist

Panic the the leading goal scorer in the NHL with 6. Toews, his line mate, only has two assists.

We can talk all day long about possession and history and cold starts.

The reality is simple. For a guy who had an off year and the fact that he is paid as the highest paid player in the NHL, he is expected to net goals. Period. End of story. The fact that this cold start is following a bad year, that's not good

Keep in mind, this same player is on the ice for the historically terrible PK. He's also a key part of a PP that has now gone 0-10 in the last two games including 0-4 in regular and 0-2 in OT on Saturday.

With the departure of secondary scoring by TT and Shaw and the prevalence of unproven rookies, the highest paid player in the league will need to generate more of that scoring (goals).

Not too much to ask for the highest paid player in the league, no?

I run a sales organization for a technology company. I have reps who make more than others. Why? They are better, have a better track record, prepare better, etc. I expect them to perform better. Not an unrealistic expectation.

 

[Backyard Hockey]

Struggled a little last game but overall has been making safe plays and doesn't look out of place

I prefer him over Kempny who's TOI has declined and who seems to be struggling a bit right now

Can't remember if it was the Friday game
or Saturday, but I recall Forsling had a his toughest night as a Hawk. Forgiveable as he's a kid.

For Kempny, yeah we are seeing the limitations we saw in WCH - indecision/wrong decision at the blue line pinch and then the in zone turnover in front of goal.

That said I still like him over TVR and Rosi on 5/6. Decision made now wit tvr out

 

[Robsker]

Is Toews even a top 5 center in the league anymore?

He was not last year. Top 8 or 9... maybe.

But... he should be just entering into his prime and 5,4,3, and 2 years ago he was a top 3 center. So... one would expect him to get out of his season(+) slump and return to top 3-5 status as a center. So far? not so good.

Lets hope this ends soon and Toews returns to the player he once was.

 

[HaveYouSeenMyTaco]

People who doubt Toews' ability to score points; how do you think he would produce if he played with Anisimov's linemates, zone starts and quality of competition? Anisimov has 8 points in 6 games to start the season.

 

[Robsker]

Toews and Panik should get Schmaltz on their wing. This would be a great line from the 6 games seen so far. Motte with Krüger and Hossa.

Please note that Motte has been very good (for a rookie) especially transitioning from college to the NHL. Schmaltz is thought to have the higher ceiling (based upon his resume coming in). But Motte has outplayed Schmaltz in, basically, every realm of the game so far. Schmaltz has not been a liability at all... he has been OK. But Motte is showing promise already.

I would guess in due time, so too will Schmaltz. But, so far... Motte is ahead of Schmaltz by a rather sizable margin.

 

[BobbyJet]

6 games and an OT in and no goals by Toews and one by Kane. Regardless how you slice it, that's not good. Kane gets a pass because his line has performed and
he's collecting assist

Panic the the leading goal scorer in the NHL with 6. Toews, his line mate, only has two assists.

We can talk all day long about possession and history and cold starts.

The reality is simple. For a guy who had an off year and the fact that he is paid as the highest paid player in the NHL, he is expected to net goals. Period. End of story. The fact that this cold start is following a bad year, that's not good

Keep in mind, this same player is on the ice for the historically terrible PK. He's also a key part of a PP that has now gone 0-10 in the last two games including 0-4 in regular and 0-2 in OT on Saturday.

With the departure of secondary scoring by TT and Shaw and the prevalence of unproven rookies, the highest paid player in the league will need to generate more of that scoring (goals).

Not too much to ask for the highest paid player in the league, no?

I run a sales organization for a technology company. I have reps who make more than others. Why? They are better, have a better track record, prepare better, etc. I expect them to perform better. Not an unrealistic expectation.

Take away the dismal PK and this team could easily be 5 - 0 and they are scoring. It they weren't scoring your post would have some merit. Hockey is not about individual stats and neither player has been bad. If asked I'm certain both K/T would be the first to point out that they would like to have more goals but more importantly it is the team record that counts. Straighten out the PK and all things considered, Hawks haven't had too bad of a start. I reckon this team will keep getting better as the new faces settle in.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

6 games and an OT in and no goals by Toews and one by Kane. Regardless how you slice it, that's not good. Kane gets a pass because his line has performed and
he's collecting assist

Panic the the leading goal scorer in the NHL with 6. Toews, his line mate, only has two assists.

We can talk all day long about possession and history and cold starts.

Ya, it is dumb to talk all day long about something that matters, but runs counter your narrative. Toews' Corsi is a team-leading 57.50. That's with Panik (50.34) and Motte(47.15) on his wings.

The reality is simple. For a guy who had an off year and the fact that he is paid as the highest paid player in the NHL, he is expected to net goals. Period. End of story. The fact that this cold start is following a bad year, that's not good

The reality is only that simple in your mind. Jaeger has said it over and over, Toews is paid for his impact on goal differential. Scoring goals is only a piece of that, preventing goals is a component of his game you seem to keep missing/blatantly ignoring.

Keep in mind, this same player is on the ice for the historically terrible PK. He's also a key part of a PP that has now gone 0-10 in the last two games including 0-4 in regular and 0-2 in OT on Saturday.

Special teams seems to be a systemic issue, or you could just ignore that and blame it all on the player you're railing against.

With the departure of secondary scoring by TT and Shaw and the prevalence of unproven rookies, the highest paid player in the league will need to generate more of that scoring (goals).

I'm not seeing the negative impact on secondary scoring you claim their departures are having. TT has 2 goals, 1 assist- 3 points. Shaw has 1 goal, 0 assists- 1 point. Kruger and Hartman have combined to match that scoring output.

Not too much to ask for the highest paid player in the league, no?

Goals and points can certainly be used to measure Kane's performance, but Toews is a much different player who impacts the game in many other ways.

I run a sales organization for a technology company. I have reps who make more than others. Why? They are better, have a better track record, prepare better, etc. I expect them to perform better. Not an unrealistic expectation.

Your top sales rep is like Kane, he's the one going out there and making all the flashy sales, lighting the sales lamp at a sale per day rate.
You're like Toews, the captain of the sales force. The stabling presence who allows those sales reps to sell with some flash and flair. You're not making as many sales as your Kane sales rep, but I'm sure you'd argue you're just as valuable to your company because you do a lot of other things that take the pressure off Kane rep.

Responses in bold

 

[LordKOTL]

Exactly. Toews is playing just like Toews is supposed to play. As long as he stays healthy there is no concern from me.

If Toews was playing like he was supposed to be playing, he would be carrying the team on his back when they've needed him to (and believe you me, they've needed him to). He hasn't for the start of this year nor last year.

I'm fairly sure he'll be out of his funk sooner or later but at 10.5M it should be him carrying the team, not Panik. The sooner he gets out of the funk the better because neither linemates nor being gassed is an excuse this year.

 

[Robsker]

Responses in bold

You have some good points re: Toews. His line gets the toughest assignments and his line - this year- is scoring and the differential is not bad. Toews does contribute in not stat-sheet ways (at least in ways that do not show in his points. So yes... Toews is still quite good.

But the eyeball test is clear, he is not as good as he has been historically, and he is not playing (corsi, intangibles, etc. taken into view) at or even very near his cap hit. So... what I am saying is you have a guy who is not playing at his pay grade and in a cap-tight context like this where the Hawks have to ice a ton of at or near leage minimum guys to pay his salary... Toews has to step it up 2- or 3 notches. And, I think he will.

 

[Backyard Hockey]

Many of these posts are evidence of why hockey fans of almost every other team mockingly call Toews 'Mr Intangibles'

For me, it's very simple. I expect the highest paid player in the league to score goals and rack up points. Goal differential is fine. Corsi is fine

For $10.5, I expect points, specifically goals.

Crazy though I know.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

You have some good points re: Toews. His line gets the toughest assignments and his line - this year- is scoring and the differential is not bad. Toews does contribute in not stat-sheet ways (at least in ways that do not show in his points. So yes... Toews is still quite good.

But the eyeball test is clear, he is not as good as he has been historically, and he is not playing (corsi, intangibles, etc. taken into view) at or even very near his cap hit. So... what I am saying is you have a guy who is not playing at his pay grade and in a cap-tight context like this where the Hawks have to ice a ton of at or near leage minimum guys to pay his salary... Toews has to step it up 2- or 3 notches. And, I think he will.

Toews has taken the second most shots on the team, 3 less than Kane. He's shooting more than he did last year, and eventually they will start going in. He's carrying a line with a near league minimum guy and a rookie, and that line has not been a disaster. Toews' Corsi numbers are 7-10 points higher than his linemates.

So it looks like the issue is Toews' shots aren't hitting twine. Once that happens, do you start saying he's playing to his cap hit, or are there other parts of his game you're also unhappy with?

 

[Backyard Hockey]

Toews has taken the second most shots on the team, 3 less than Kane. He's shooting more than he did last year, and eventually they will start going in. He's carrying a line with a near league minimum guy and a rookie, and that line has not been a disaster. Toews' Corsi numbers are 7-10 points higher than his linemates.

So it looks like the issue is Toews' shots aren't hitting twine. Once that happens, do you start saying he's playing to his cap hit, or are there other parts of his game you're also unhappy with?

The near minimum guy is the leading goal scorer in the NHL