GDT: Game 56: Columbus at Pittsburgh | 2/19 7PM EST | NBCSN

[Mayor Bee]

Actually the Wings have a history of finding players deep in the draft so I wouldn't exactly say they got lucky with them. Maybe lucky because they are both possible Hall of Famers, but they find lots of quality players deep in the draft.

No they do not; it's a myth created by people too slow to be able to actually find patterns and too lazy to actually do some research.

From 1990-2004, a span of 15 NHL drafts, Detroit's round after the third round doesn't stand out compared to anyone else. There's Datsyuk and Zetterberg, dozens of guys who never played in the NHL, and a small handful of serviceable players who were all traded before making an impact in the league. 1990 had Jason York, who was moved as part a five-piece deal in which the two biggest parts were Mike Sillinger and a 6th-rounder. Mike Knuble had 14 points with Detroit before being moved as part of a deal involving conditional draft picks. Dan McGillis never played with Detroit at all.

The only played in those 15 drafts who were taken after the 3rd round and played more than 500 games with Detroit are Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Tomas Holmstrom. Drop it down to 400 and no one else gets added to that list, although Jonathan Ericsson could hit that by the end of this season. If you expand it to include players who hit 500 games elsewhere, you can only add McGillis, Knuble, and York to the list.

In that same time span, Los Angeles picked up Robert Lang, Alexei Zhitnik, Kimmo Timonen, Joe Corvo, and Lubomir Visnovsky. For depth players there's Rem Murray, Eric Belanger, George Parros, and Cristobal Huet.

The Rangers turned up Sergei Zubov, Sergei Nemchinov, Marc Savard, Todd Marchant, Kim Johnsson, Henrik Lundqvist, Mike York, Marek Zidlicky, and Ryan Callahan.

How about Ottawa? Pavol Demitra, Daniel Alfredsson, Sami Salo, Andreas Dackell, Brian Elliott, Ray Emery, and depth in Chris Neil, Brooks Laich, Greg Zanon, and Karel Rachunek.

Nashville turned up Karlis Skrastins, Martin Erat, Jordin Tootoo, and Pekka Rinne in just seven of those drafts.

San Jose? Evgeni Nabokov, Marcus Ragnarsson, Miikka Kiprusoff, Vaclav Varada, Douglas Murray, Mikael Samuelsson, Christian Ehrhoff, Ryane Clowe, Joe Pavelski, Torrey Mitchell.

Why is late-round drafting always treated like the exclusive domain of Detroit?

 

[EspenK]

If your "goal" is to finish low enough to get a "legit' chance at winning the lottery to get Eichel or McDavid, yeah I think you're going to be disappointed.

I'd say we have a better chance at making the playoffs than getting a top 3 pick.

"Unless" we win the lottery and get #1 no way do we get 2 or 3.

" " is the new bold?

 

[ca5150]

No they do not; it's a myth created by people too slow to be able to actually find patterns and too lazy to actually do some research.

From 1990-2004, a span of 15 NHL drafts, Detroit's round after the third round doesn't stand out compared to anyone else. There's Datsyuk and Zetterberg, dozens of guys who never played in the NHL, and a small handful of serviceable players who were all traded before making an impact in the league. 1990 had Jason York, who was moved as part a five-piece deal in which the two biggest parts were Mike Sillinger and a 6th-rounder. Mike Knuble had 14 points with Detroit before being moved as part of a deal involving conditional draft picks. Dan McGillis never played with Detroit at all.

The only played in those 15 drafts who were taken after the 3rd round and played more than 500 games with Detroit are Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Tomas Holmstrom. Drop it down to 400 and no one else gets added to that list, although Jonathan Ericsson could hit that by the end of this season. If you expand it to include players who hit 500 games elsewhere, you can only add McGillis, Knuble, and York to the list.

In that same time span, Los Angeles picked up Robert Lang, Alexei Zhitnik, Kimmo Timonen, Joe Corvo, and Lubomir Visnovsky. For depth players there's Rem Murray, Eric Belanger, George Parros, and Cristobal Huet.

The Rangers turned up Sergei Zubov, Sergei Nemchinov, Marc Savard, Todd Marchant, Kim Johnsson, Henrik Lundqvist, Mike York, Marek Zidlicky, and Ryan Callahan.

How about Ottawa? Pavol Demitra, Daniel Alfredsson, Sami Salo, Andreas Dackell, Brian Elliott, Ray Emery, and depth in Chris Neil, Brooks Laich, Greg Zanon, and Karel Rachunek.

Nashville turned up Karlis Skrastins, Martin Erat, Jordin Tootoo, and Pekka Rinne in just seven of those drafts.

San Jose? Evgeni Nabokov, Marcus Ragnarsson, Miikka Kiprusoff, Vaclav Varada, Douglas Murray, Mikael Samuelsson, Christian Ehrhoff, Ryane Clowe, Joe Pavelski, Torrey Mitchell.

Why is late-round drafting always treated like the exclusive domain of Detroit?

For a team that hasn't had a pick in the top 15, of their own, in 25 years, they seem to find plenty of young talent and just keep reloading. I think they are better at developing players than we are for sure.

 

[Mayor Bee]

For a team that hasn't had a pick in the top 15, of their own, in 25 years, they seem to find plenty of young talent and just keep reloading. I think they are better at developing players than we are for sure.

So a team that had a 75-year head start is better at developing players than one that employed Doug MacLean for the first seven years of the franchise's existence.

Fascinating stuff.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Most of the great finds in the later draft rounds were pre 2000.

Most of these players were from Europe (continental and Russia).

NHL overseas scouting presence has dramatically increased since then, so the likelihood of a Datsyuk or equivalent slipping through the cracks and being found in the lower rounds has been all but eliminated.

 

[candyman82]

Let's also remember that getting a guy like Zetterberg or Datsyuk is more luck than anything else. If the Red Wings had had any idea those two would have been this good they would have picked them earlier.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Let's also remember that getting a guy like Zetterberg or Datsyuk is more luck than anything else. If the Red Wings had had any idea those two would have been this good they would have picked them earlier.

The best explanation of all.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Well, this season has made it clear that we have a lot of work to do before we make our first back-to-back playoff trips ever. Still beating our arch-rivals is a major boost to our morality.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Well, this season has made it clear that we have a lot of work to do before we make our first back-to-back playoff trips ever. Still beating our arch-rivals is a major boost to our morality.

We made some questionable and borderline unethical decisions before this game.

 

[ca5150]

So a team that had a 75-year head start is better at developing players than one that employed Doug MacLean for the first seven years of the franchise's existence.

Fascinating stuff.

MacLean was with the Wings for 5 years too...and that's a ridiculous argument that because a team has been around longer, we can't compete with that...why bother then?

 

[We Want Ten]

All the teams in front of us are out of gas, and we are getting better each game and God knows we are well rested. Plus we have played at a crazy pace the last two seasons for the stretch, so we know how to do it, remember the west coast trip 2 years ago? This is a huge weekend and week, it's set up for us to make up a lot of points, I'm excited!

I gotta be honest and say your enthusiasm is certainly infectious. I have been solidly in the missing the playoff boat since November, but... A few more wins, who knows.

 

[Mayor Bee]

MacLean was with the Wings for 5 years too...and that's a ridiculous argument that because a team has been around longer, we can't compete with that...why bother then?

It has nothing to do with competing and everything to do with developing. Y'know, the part where I said "a team that had a 75-year head start is better at developing players than one..."

And yes, there's a lot of stuff that goes into why established teams tend to develop players better than expansion teams. Namely:
1) An established team is normally more competitive. A kid who's drafted in the first round and doesn't make it out of camp with an established team can say "They're a playoff team, but they believe I can play with them down the road." A kid drafted in the first round by an expansion team who gets sent down may look and say "I can't even crack the roster of a team loaded with castoffs and washed-up guys."
2) An established team has more history to draw on. A kid drafted by Detroit in 2000 might see players that he grew up idolizing, or that his father grew up idolizing, or that his grandfather has stories about. A kid drafted by an expansion team in 2000 can see someone who played on the fourth line of a middling playoff team five years ago.
3) Established teams can attract the biggest stars off the ice. Excellent coach who just took an undermanned team deep into the playoffs? He's got seven offers, and he's not going to the expansion team. Big-name GM who was railroaded by his last boss in a power struggle? He's not building an expansion team. Other areas in hockey ops? No, they're going to the established team; they can hand out business cards that have a Rangers or a Blackhawks logo on it, rather than one with an unfamiliar logo that will cause the average person to say "Oh, you're in the minor leagues?"
4) Established owners have a clearer set of expectations. They've generally been in the league for a while and know how long a rebuild may last, how the inner workings of teams and leagues actually look, and are fully aware that some things are best left untouched and unspoken. A newer owner, particularly with a newer team, may have the idea that a sports team is like any other business...which it's not.

Also, MacLean was with Detroit for four years, not five. And a big part of Florida's stagnation and then drop after he left was due to the very things I've outlined above. There's an unrealistic sense of where the team actually is, therefore this mediocrity is on everyone in hockey ops, therefore it's time to purge everyone and start over with a big name that'll shake things up...like Mike Keenan. There's a top draft pick who might lose confidence if he's sent down, so Stephen Weiss is staying up here damn it (not to pick on Weiss; there are a bunch of other guys who fit that description).

Atlanta was plagued with the same, Phoenix was plagued with the same, and so on. The only recent expansion teams to avoid it were Nashville and Minnesota. Nashville still nearly imploded due to ownership issues a few years in, and Minnesota is unique in that they were able to tap into the North Stars history and attract off-ice talent that way.

 

[dnmccoy]

Not to steer this way off course but Id be eternally grateful if anyone has a gif of Foligno busting Downies nose

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Not to steer this way off course but Id be eternally grateful if anyone has a gif of Foligno busting Downies nose

Yeah way to derail the "history of Detroit Red Wings hockey" thread.

 

[EspenK]

Yeah way to derail the "history of Detroit Red Wings hockey" thread.

Anybody know when the Wings started playing in the Joe?

 

[ca5150]

Anybody know when the Wings started playing in the Joe?

1979/80 season. It was odd because they opened during the season in December