Post-Game Talk: GAME #52: Canucks 5 @ Avalanche 1 (Boeser, Virtanen, Goldobin, Roussel, Motte)

DL44

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That was a great game to watch... entertaining as hell.

A couple players get off the schneid, people get to shotgun, PP scores, the defensive work by all 5 on the ice was outstanding. Sticks were very disruptive tonight.

Team looked VERY fast after being completely smothered by Carolina's speed. So hopefully it's more of a rejuvenated Canucks team rather than a slow Avs team last night.

Marky was shakey to start, but got enough of the puck twice to thwart the early goal against... buckled it down as the team in front tightened as the game went on.

Loved the back and forth open loose play in the first... glad to survive that with 0 ga. Fun game.
 

Wo Yorfat

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Nov 7, 2016
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Miller was signed to give Markstrom time to rebuild his game after his development had been badly mismanaged. I like how MS seems to he suggesting that if only that cap space had been directed to a defender we would have been a contender or something. I mean if that isn't what he's suggesting, it's time to accept that the end goal of signing Miller (strong goalie pipeline when the team returns to competiveness) has succeeded brilliantly.

No disrespect but the reasoning in this post is f***ing Pejorative Slured.
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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Anyone see if there were postgame comments by TG? Don't see any
"Really good effort. Start to finish our guys were ready to play tonight... I think we were better with the puck. Our breakouts were better. We worked on them over the last few days. We had a lot of good efforts. Jake was good, I thought Goldy had a good game. Really all 4 lines. Motte had a good game, lot of good efforts." - Green
 
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Jimnastic

Canucks Diehard
Nov 13, 2017
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6th overall pick, that likely won’t ever score 20 goals in the NHL and you’re dropping the Neely comparison. I wish you dropped that earlier in your post so I could have stopped reading earlier.
Maybe I wasn't clear. He should be moving in the direction of Neely, a power forward with good speed and hands. I did not mean to imply that he will ever be half the player that Cam Neely was.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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Saw some tweets. Said happy with everyone, specifically named goldy Jake and motte
I liked Jake’s goal, but I liked even more how he stopped in front of the net, rather than doing a fly-by. Jake celebrated in the AV’s crease! That’s friggin’ awesome development. I think Roussel is having a positive effective on how Jake plays.
 
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GetFocht

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Jun 11, 2013
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Awesome that Brock Boeser got his 50th goal of his career: he surpassed William Nylander in 98 less games.

His 50th goal was perfect, that's the Brock I remember from last season in which he would shoot with conviction. The time off made him look rejuvenated, he was handling the puck well, made good passes, and was the first in the forecheck amongst his line and be able to retrieve the puck.
 
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Bougieman

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Running with Lack and Markstrom was always the way to go... have them fight over who gets #1. Markstrom's emergence as #1 just proves one was capable and drills home the point that running with Lack and Markstrom was always the way to go.

Markstrom becoming a legit and skilled #1 goalie also really forces everyone around here to reevaluate the trade that brought him here. At the time Luongo's "untradable" contract meant the Canucks were extremely unlikely to acquire fair market value for Lou -- and now it appears that they managed, against the odds, to do exactly that.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Markstrom becoming a legit and skilled #1 goalie also really forces everyone around here to reevaluate the trade that brought him here. At the time Luongo's "untradable" contract meant the Canucks were extremely unlikely to acquire fair market value for Lou -- and now it appears that they managed, against the odds, to do exactly that.
I'm as happy as the next guy that Marky is playing really well this year...However,I'd like to see a bit larger of a sample size before I would annoint him a #1.
 
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kanuck87

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Markstrom becoming a legit and skilled #1 goalie also really forces everyone around here to reevaluate the trade that brought him here. At the time Luongo's "untradable" contract meant the Canucks were extremely unlikely to acquire fair market value for Lou -- and now it appears that they managed, against the odds, to do exactly that.

Except that we've invested a lot of time and money to get here with Markstrom...all for the opportunity to pay him market value money after next season and hope that this isn't a mirage.

Still not sure I would say that it was a good trade quite yet.
 

alternate

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There is zero connection between having Miller as our goalie in 14-15 and Markstrom being good now and having any other goalie here at that time. What, Markstrom would suck now if Greiss had been starting games in Vancouver in 14-15 while Markstrom was in Utica?

And yes, we probably win at least a playoff series in 2015 if Benning correctly addresses our defense instead of goaltending. And since Benning’s whole plan was to compete immediatelty, this is what he should be judged against. You’re moving the goalposts hilariously here.

Zero connection? You can't say that with any conviction. At best you can speculate that if you change what was, what is will still be as good or better.

Miller was one of the best goalies of his era, and a consummate professional. Maybe bringing in a less proven option gives Markstrom the same cover to rebuild his game in the AHL and as a backup. Or, considering the Luongo/Schneider/Lack love triangle this organization had just exited, I'd say it's more likely we enter another goalie controversy and Markstrom has pressure on his shoulders from day 1 and he's probably back in Europe by now.

That's the thing with bringing in Miller...it took all pressure off Markstrom and gave him a couple years to just focus on becoming the NHL goalie he was projected to be. If you think being in a competition or a 1a/1b situation would have been better for Markstrom at that point, rather than being sheltered from the bright lights while getting to watch the practice habits and pre/post/during game habits of a borderline HOFer, then you're just wrong.

As for "would have won a playoff round" doubt it but thank gawd that didn't happen. Would likely mean no Boeser, and I really doubt your scenario sees Markstrom develop the way he has. Benning wanted a veteran bridge in net, and that was Miller. Speculate all you want about how that decision cost us a playoff run (LOL!) but second guessing Benning on how he has handled the net -- given the organization is now Markstrom/Demko/Dipietro deep at the position, and has received assets for Lack and Nilsson under Benning -- is a bit hard to take as more than agenda.

Running with Lack and Markstrom was always the way to go... have them fight over who gets #1. Markstrom's emergence as #1 just proves one was capable and drills home the point that running with Lack and Markstrom was always the way to go.

So to be clear, you feel if you just change everything, everything will end up exactly the same. Just because 3 years later Markstrom looks like he has emerged as a bonafide NHL starter, doesn't mean he was ready for the role 3 years ago. I'm a bit surprised to see this from you, your logic is usually sound.

Regardless, years ago we had Miller. Lack fizzled out pretty quick after leaving Vancouver. I'll take Miller + the 2 picks returned for Lack + Markstrom we see today. You can have whatever is behind door #3...you never know, it might even be a boat!
 

rune74

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Oct 10, 2008
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Running with Lack and Markstrom was always the way to go... have them fight over who gets #1. Markstrom's emergence as #1 just proves one was capable and drills home the point that running with Lack and Markstrom was always the way to go.

If anything Lack has proven that he isn't up to the task at this point.....at the time you could maybe make that argument but he was never more then a backup playing a starter role.

Anyways, last night game was a lot of fun to watch, even if there wasn't as much pettersson fun.

I got the feeling they were letting the avs get away with a few things there, time of the year to prop up the american teams.
 

I in the Eye

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Zero connection? You can't say that with any conviction. At best you can speculate that if you change what was, what is will still be as good or better.

Miller was one of the best goalies of his era, and a consummate professional. Maybe bringing in a less proven option gives Markstrom the same cover to rebuild his game in the AHL and as a backup. Or, considering the Luongo/Schneider/Lack love triangle this organization had just exited, I'd say it's more likely we enter another goalie controversy and Markstrom has pressure on his shoulders from day 1 and he's probably back in Europe by now.

That's the thing with bringing in Miller...it took all pressure off Markstrom and gave him a couple years to just focus on becoming the NHL goalie he was projected to be. If you think being in a competition or a 1a/1b situation would have been better for Markstrom at that point, rather than being sheltered from the bright lights while getting to watch the practice habits and pre/post/during game habits of a borderline HOFer, then you're just wrong.

As for "would have won a playoff round" doubt it but thank gawd that didn't happen. Would likely mean no Boeser, and I really doubt your scenario sees Markstrom develop the way he has. Benning wanted a veteran bridge in net, and that was Miller. Speculate all you want about how that decision cost us a playoff run (LOL!) but second guessing Benning on how he has handled the net -- given the organization is now Markstrom/Demko/Dipietro deep at the position, and has received assets for Lack and Nilsson under Benning -- is a bit hard to take as more than agenda.



So to be clear, you feel if you just change everything, everything will end up exactly the same. Just because 3 years later Markstrom looks like he has emerged as a bonafide NHL starter, doesn't mean he was ready for the role 3 years ago. I'm a bit surprised to see this from you, your logic is usually sound.

Regardless, years ago we had Miller. Lack fizzled out pretty quick after leaving Vancouver. I'll take Miller + the 2 picks returned for Lack + Markstrom we see today. You can have whatever is behind door #3...you never know, it might even be a boat!

No, I don't feel that if you just change everything, everything will end up being exactly the same.

But I do feel that nothing can be perfect where nothing exists... and to look for nothing perfect, a perfect nothing is.
 
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Bleach Clean

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Zero connection? You can't say that with any conviction. At best you can speculate that if you change what was, what is will still be as good or better.


Your original post was speculation. It's something you have no hope of proving correct.

To say that Miller was brought in to help rebuild Markstrom's game, and then to suppose that this plan succeeded brilliantly, takes many leaps in logic that you are not prepared to ground in any sense of reality.


Miller was one of the best goalies of his era, and a consummate professional. Maybe bringing in a less proven option gives Markstrom the same cover to rebuild his game in the AHL and as a backup. Or, considering the Luongo/Schneider/Lack love triangle this organization had just exited, I'd say it's more likely we enter another goalie controversy and Markstrom has pressure on his shoulders from day 1 and he's probably back in Europe by now.


You start by entertaining possibilities, which is good, but then you end with a hard conclusion based on no evidence, which is bad. Are you following your rationale here?


That's the thing with bringing in Miller...it took all pressure off Markstrom and gave him a couple years to just focus on becoming the NHL goalie he was projected to be. If you think being in a competition or a 1a/1b situation would have been better for Markstrom at that point, rather than being sheltered from the bright lights while getting to watch the practice habits and pre/post/during game habits of a borderline HOFer, then you're just wrong.


You have nothing to say that either situation is right or wrong. Absolutely nothing.


As for "would have won a playoff round" doubt it but thank gawd that didn't happen. Would likely mean no Boeser, and I really doubt your scenario sees Markstrom develop the way he has. Benning wanted a veteran bridge in net, and that was Miller. Speculate all you want about how that decision cost us a playoff run (LOL!) but second guessing Benning on how he has handled the net -- given the organization is now Markstrom/Demko/Dipietro deep at the position, and has received assets for Lack and Nilsson under Benning -- is a bit hard to take as more than agenda.


MS does speculate on the playoff run. That goes too far, I agree. However, his premise is actually one where the best cap utility is employed to create the best team possible. If Markstrom + Lack get close to a reasonable split in 2014-15, then Miller is rendered unnecessary and that money is obviously better spent on a skater. This is completely logical to suppose. The disagreement is in projecting Markstrom/Lack/Griess.


So to be clear, you feel if you just change everything, everything will end up exactly the same. Just because 3 years later Markstrom looks like he has emerged as a bonafide NHL starter, doesn't mean he was ready for the role 3 years ago. I'm a bit surprised to see this from you, your logic is usually sound.

Regardless, years ago we had Miller. Lack fizzled out pretty quick after leaving Vancouver. I'll take Miller + the 2 picks returned for Lack + Markstrom we see today. You can have whatever is behind door #3...you never know, it might even be a boat!


I think you believe that you are being logical here alternate, but you're getting trapped in False Cause and the Texas Sharpshooter biases as well as presenting an overall Confirmation Bias. Here's what you're doing:

1. You are assuming the cause of Markstrom's play right now as being tied to the acquisition of Miller. There is nothing in studies that suggest this type of attribution. It's purely anecdotal.

2. Next, you're finding a pattern to fit a presumption. In this case, Markstrom being waived before, when Miller was added, to now, when he's playing the best hockey of his career and Miller is gone. This is the texas sharpshooter fallacy, whereby you are isolating two distinct data sets to fit your presumption when you don't know what Markstrom/Lack/Greiss would have done had Miller not have been signed (the first data set). Nor could you have grounded what Markstrom would have done now prior to the start of the season (which breaks your second data set).

3. You are obviously favouring things that confirm your existing beliefs. You pose, mockingly, that the alternative to not signing Miller would not have resulted in Markstrom being what he is now. You also have no way of knowing and/or proving this claim.

In the end, you're guessing at both ends and assuming your guess is the correct one. That is illogical.
 
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MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Zero connection? You can't say that with any conviction. At best you can speculate that if you change what was, what is will still be as good or better.

Miller was one of the best goalies of his era, and a consummate professional. Maybe bringing in a less proven option gives Markstrom the same cover to rebuild his game in the AHL and as a backup. Or, considering the Luongo/Schneider/Lack love triangle this organization had just exited, I'd say it's more likely we enter another goalie controversy and Markstrom has pressure on his shoulders from day 1 and he's probably back in Europe by now.

That's the thing with bringing in Miller...it took all pressure off Markstrom and gave him a couple years to just focus on becoming the NHL goalie he was projected to be. If you think being in a competition or a 1a/1b situation would have been better for Markstrom at that point, rather than being sheltered from the bright lights while getting to watch the practice habits and pre/post/during game habits of a borderline HOFer, then you're just wrong.

As for "would have won a playoff round" doubt it but thank gawd that didn't happen. Would likely mean no Boeser, and I really doubt your scenario sees Markstrom develop the way he has. Benning wanted a veteran bridge in net, and that was Miller. Speculate all you want about how that decision cost us a playoff run (LOL!) but second guessing Benning on how he has handled the net -- given the organization is now Markstrom/Demko/Dipietro deep at the position, and has received assets for Lack and Nilsson under Benning -- is a bit hard to take as more than agenda.



So to be clear, you feel if you just change everything, everything will end up exactly the same. Just because 3 years later Markstrom looks like he has emerged as a bonafide NHL starter, doesn't mean he was ready for the role 3 years ago. I'm a bit surprised to see this from you, your logic is usually sound.

Regardless, years ago we had Miller. Lack fizzled out pretty quick after leaving Vancouver. I'll take Miller + the 2 picks returned for Lack + Markstrom we see today. You can have whatever is behind door #3...you never know, it might even be a boat!

Jesus Christ.

The moving goalposts here are stunning.

Ryan Miller was signed to help this team compete by a GM whose plan was to compete. This completely failed.

But instead thank god we spent our money so badly on Miller that we were able to draft Boeser with a pick that Benning desperately tried to trade to Boston for Lucic! Miller signing was great!

Also the Miller signing magically made Markstrom better in Utica! If we didn’t have Miller as our 2nd best goalie in Vancouver in 14-15 who knows what would have happened!

Also the Alex Burmistrov signing in 2017 was huge because without him to shoulder a bit of the load, who knows how Brock Boeser turns out!
 

Ryan Miller*

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More “speculation” courtesy of the goalies themselves:
[Ryan Miller’s] lasting legacy is his mentorship of Jacob Markstrom. The more competitive and composed Canucks goalie you see today is a product of the student learning from the professor.
“I’m proud of him,” said Miller. “After I signed here, I passed along a few things. That’s always been my intention, to be the best I can be because it’s going to help me in the long run, help the team and Jacob. He has always had all the tools — he’s very athletic and has the size and the mentality.
“He’s harder on himself than he lets on, but he has an easy-going demeanour. If he can harness it all the right way, he could be in a good place. It doesn’t surprise me that he’s playing good hockey — he’s got the instincts.”
Markstrom credits a newfound perspective and better battle level — especially after early goals — to the tutelage of Miller.
“He called me a couple of times this summer after he signed in Anaheim and I really wanted him back in Vancouver, but he had a chance to be closer to family and you’ve got to respect that,” said Markstrom. “He helped me out a lot mentally — just to see him in practice and to talk about small technical stuff.”
 

Bleach Clean

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Aug 9, 2006
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More “speculation” courtesy of the goalies themselves:

Whenever you want to make the case that the ideas behind this article have lead to Markstrom tangibly raising his SV% to .928 over a 2 month span, let me know. I want the direct causation outlined per a data driven methodology.

Cool article though. Thumbs up.
 
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Ryan Miller*

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Are you seriously arguing that anything that can’t be captured by a data driven methodology is pure speculation? Good to know your limits I guess.

There aren’t ideas behind the article; it’s the players themselves outlining a productive relationship grounded in factual encounters.
 
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Red

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Honestly, when you give a 30 y/o pest a $12 million deal for 4 years with a NTC coming off a season where he finished it with 50 games without scoring ... and then promptly has the best offensive season of his career, it’s probably just dumb luck.

Have said a million times that basically everything Benning does is betting on a low-percentage outcome. And when you make 10 moves that all have only a 10% chance of working out but one of those 10 does hit (as numbers will dictate probably happens) ... it doesn’t mean it was a good move grounded in sound logic.

FWIW Roussel was 28 when given this contract. 2 years is a big difference when you're talking about a 4 year contract. He'll be 32 when the contract ends.
 
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Bleach Clean

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Are you seriously arguing that anything that can’t be captured by a data driven methodology is pure speculation? Good to know your limits I guess.

There aren’t ideas behind the article; it’s the players themselves outlining a productive relationship grounded in factual encounters.


Factual encounters?

When someone posits that a player was able to garner tangible results from his mere proximity to another player, they are going to have to come up with something far more grounded than a quick-hit praise laden interview as evidence. This should go without saying.

And just to highlight this false cause case further: Luongo and Schneider played together. Do we want to say that Luongo imparted tangible ability to Schneider, enough to make him a starter? If so, then how do we explain his recent porous performance? Was Luongo not sheltering/imparting valuable technique while Schneider was here? etc...
 

Ryan Miller*

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When someone posits that a player was able to garner tangible results from his mere proximity to another player, they are going to have to come up with something far more grounded than a quick-hit praise laden interview as evidence. This should go without saying.
They are going to have to come up with something “far more grounded” than the players’ words themselves? Are we going to have to venture into Markstrom’s brain magic school bus style and discover the new synapses formed by his relationship with Miller?

At the end of the day, Miller was brought in partially to help Markstrom develop into a #1 goalies, and according to the goalies themselves, media insiders, cited evidence of positive interactions, and the factual reality of Markstrom clearly developing as a goalie over Miller’s tenure... these factors all point toward alternates conclusions being much more valid than the alternatives.

Debating your posts is seriously exhausting, because they can’t conceptualize past the limits of positivism, and imply little knowledge of interpersonal relationships.
 

4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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I'm as happy as the next guy that Marky is playing really well this year...However,I'd like to see a bit larger of a sample size before I would annoint him a #1.
What makes a goalie a #1 or not?

He's been a number 1 for the last season and a half.

The Vancouver market has a real blind spot with goalies, unless they're top 6-10 goalies in the league, they aren't true number 1's. It makes no sense.

Markstrom is a league average starter and was trending this way both years he matched Miller save for save.
 
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