GDT: Game 5, part two

[Cursed Lemon]

You must not be paying attention to the physical game he brings; I will agree that he had a rough night last night, but he's not nearly as bad as most here are claiming.

It's impossible to screw up every second of every shift.

But Lashoff makes enough mistakes that he makes everyone bite their nails when he's out there.

 

[Heaton]

It's impossible to screw up every second of every shift.

But Lashoff makes enough mistakes that he makes everyone bite their nails when he's out there.

As does Kindl and Smith - obviously Lashoff is worse. It comes with the territory of young players. Though I don't see Lashoff as being a mainstay in the lineup.

 

[RedMenace]

It's impossible to screw up every second of every shift.

You wouldn't know that by the comments about Lashoff...

But Lashoff makes enough mistakes that he makes everyone bite their nails when he's out there.

As does Kindl and Smith...

Smith especially; it seems like he turns the puck over directly to the opposition every other possession.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

The only move I question is Lashoff. We have a very young and inexperienced defense, we have two vets sitting on the bench waiting to get in...I know it's likely because Babcock sees us needing another PKer, and Lashoff is usually pretty reliable for his two minutes of PK duty every night. It's the 15 minutes of ES play he gets that scares the hell out of everyone. At that point, dress the better ES player, and let the PK sort itself out with Q and CC getting some time on it.

edit: agree about sitting Emmerton for Abdelkader. I just don't see Emmerton bringing anything to the table right now. He's not winning faceoffs. He's not physical. He's not producing. Either have Abdelkader center one of those bottom6 lines, or rework our centers around Datsyuk, Flip, Franzen, and Andersson to keep Gator on the wing. Regardless of how it's done, Emmerton should be the off man out in game six.

Agree on all fronts. Lashoff in the last two games is baffling, to say the least. He started the season as AHL fodder, and you have two playoff experienced D in the pressbox, it makes no sense.

Likewise with Emmerton, in game 6, you need everyone bringing it.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Games played: 31 (out of 48)
Hits: 44 (3rd)
Blocked Shots: 43 (3rd)
Giveaways: 11 (2nd fewest among those who played 20 games)

I still think they're nearly meaningless stats. I'll give that he's a good shot blocker and that has its value.

But hits, it depends who's recording, it's subjective, and it's not necessarily a good thing. Lidstrom had no hits but nobody cared. If you're running around like Helm on a good day knocking down everything that moves, maybe your hits are a valuable stat. If you hit a guy as he's making a pass that leads to a goal, rather than poke check it or block the lane, did you do a good thing? If you bump somebody but not hard enough to bother them, did you accomplish anything?

And giveaways? I think that just means that he rarely touches the puck. And when he does, he chips it out of the zone or makes an easy pass to the guy next to him. Which isn't a horrible thing, but it's nothing praiseworthy in my opinion.

 

[RedMenace]

I still think they're nearly meaningless stats. I'll give that he's a good shot blocker and that has its value.

Oh no, don't tell me you want to use Corsi ratings...

But hits, it depends who's recording, it's subjective, and it's not necessarily a good thing. Lidstrom had no hits but nobody cared. If you're running around like Helm on a good day knocking down everything that moves, maybe your hits are a valuable stat. If you hit a guy as he's making a pass that leads to a goal, rather than poke check it or block the lane, did you do a good thing? If you bump somebody but not hard enough to bother them, did you accomplish anything?

Lashoff, for the most part, physically punishes guys he's up against. He definitely still needs work on his passing lane coverage, positioning without the puck, and anticipating the play, but that should come with time at this level.

Not saying this is you, but why do people seem to disregard the fact that he's a rookie with 34 games played? Is it because he's not Erik Karlsson or Justin Schultz? Or, hell, even Danny DeKeyser?

And giveaways? I think that just means that he rarely touches the puck. And when he does, he chips it out of the zone or makes an easy pass to the guy next to him. Which isn't a horrible thing, but it's nothing praiseworthy in my opinion.

He actually is a pretty good passer (last night's 2 bad giveaways notwithstanding), and usually tries to make the easy pass to whomever is the puck-mover, but he can rifle some outlet passes.

But you know, this discussion is relatively pointless. Attackers will attack, defenders will defend, and the Cycle of Anonymous Message Boards will go on; rarely does anyone sway another's opinion without that person seeing the point(s) themselves.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I think the frustrating thing for me is the way Babcock/Holland give every opportunity to Lashoff and Dekeyser...

Meanwhile guys like Kindl and Ericsson had to wait so long to get a shot

Why? Because he's 6'3 and "defensive"

If you ask me, Kindl is BETTER than Lashoff defensively. His positioning his better.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

As does Kindl and Smith - obviously Lashoff is worse. It comes with the territory of young players. Though I don't see Lashoff as being a mainstay in the lineup.

And Ericsson. And Quincey

 

[TheOtherOne]

Not saying this is you, but why do people seem to disregard the fact that he's a rookie with 34 games played?

Who is "disregarding" that fact? I'm not telling him to go to hell, I'm just arguing that he shouldn't be playing for us NOW, when we're trying to win a playoff series. The fact that he has only played 34 games doesn't make our elimination any better. So why isn't CC in instead?

If Lashoff gets more NHL experience and improves, great. I think the point everyone is making is that he sucks NOW, and now is what matters.

EDIT: And yea I wouldn't mind seeing some Corsi or some other stats. Things like "hits", "giveaways", whatever else the home team's backup goaltender is recording when he's not too busy picking his nose, I don't put much stock into them.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

I don't blame Lashoff, I blame the guy who decides Lashoff played over 2 established Veterans.

 

[PullHard]

Palmieri, Bonino, and Cogliano.

Sounds like a law firm in NY area. Celino & Barnes or w/e.

 

[Kronwalled55]

Palmieri, Bonino, and Cogliano.

Sounds like a law firm in NY area. Celino & Barnes or w/e.

I was thinking Mafia members, but that works too

 

[JPE123]

I don't blame Lashoff, I blame the guy who decides Lashoff played over 2 established Veterans.

This ^^^^^^^

 

[Shawn Lutz]

We're way too sloppy in our own end. Just about every goal the Ducks get we give it to them. Too many defensive zone turnovers. We're relying too much on Howard to save the day...he can erase maybe 2-3 mistakes a game but we're making more than 2 or 3.

Last night I didn't like seeing Anderson line on the ice in OT a minute in. I would have preferred to shorten up the bench at least for the first 5 minutes or before throw rookies out there.

 

[aar000n]

Had a dentist appointment this morning so I had to miss the game.

Man that is heartbreaking when you have a chance to go up 3-2 in the series. How did the team look as a whole? How was Howard?

Ducks outplayed the wings first should have been up 3-1. Wings outplayed the ducks the rest of the game. Should have scored 3-1. So an even game that could have gone either way.

 

[vladdy16]

For those questioning Lashoff playing:

Plus/minus: 0 (tied for 1st)
Hits: 6 (tied for 4th)
Blocked Shots: 6 (3rd)
Turnovers: 2 (tied for 2nd fewest)

In 3 games he's gotten as many or more hits than Quicey and Smith, and he's blocked more shots than Quincey, Ericsson, and Smith (who've all played 5 games). That's what they want him out there for.

As for those of us who defend him? Pay attention to other parts of his game. Is he out of position more than he should be? Sure. Does he make some questionable plays? Absolutely.

Is he a rookie with 31 games of regular season and 3 games of playoff experience?

Yep.

But hey, don't let little things like "facts" get in the way of finding a scapegoat.

OK, Lashoff has a nice skillset, that's apparent watching his man to man coverage/his ability to close on guys.

That doesn't change the fact that this is the playoffs, he's a rookie, and EVERY single game he's played, he's given the ducks point blank scoring chances in a way no other defensemen does/would, and they've converted at least one of those each game. There is no excuse for hamstringing your team like that in the playoffs for the sake of getting one single(not very vital) guy experience. ESPECIALLY when your organization has been unwilling to even sacrifice REGULAR SEASON games to get guys experience.

Stats in hockey aren't even close to facts. Lashoff shouldn't be villified for this, the coaches should be held accountable.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Defense just isn't good enough. The game doesn't feel secure even with a three goal lead.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Lashoff blocks a lot of shots bc the opponent is shooting almost all the time he's on the ice.

Lots of hits and few giveaways bc he doesn't have the puck much.

Or along those lines.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Lashoff blocks a lot of shots bc the opponent is shooting almost all the time he's on the ice.

That's a good point. It makes sense that puck possession guys like Datsyuk won't have many shot blocks even if they're very committed and good at shot blocking, simply because they're mostly playing in the o-zone.

And a defenseman like Lidstrom is so good at breaking up plays before they amount to much that there will rarely be opportunities for opponents to take big shots from far out, so even if he's great at shot blocking he just won't have many opportunities to do it.

 

[Flowah]

Defense just isn't good enough. The game doesn't feel secure even with a three goal lead.

Because we know exactly how this team performs with a 2 or 3 goal lead.

 

[InjuredChoker]

That's a good point. It makes sense that puck possession guys like Datsyuk won't have many shot blocks even if they're very committed and good at shot blocking, simply because they're mostly playing in the o-zone.

And a defenseman like Lidstrom is so good at breaking up plays before they amount to much that there will rarely be opportunities for opponents to take big shots from far out, so even if he's great at shot blocking he just won't have many opportunities to do it.

Greg Zanon had 2nd most blocked shots and 2 less games than the #1 guy who had 1 blocked shot more than Zanon (Girardi 125).

Zanon also had only 16 giveaways in 44 games one of the best among Colorado regulars. And 65 hits. 3rd among their Dman, 2nd basically if you don't count ROB.

This Zanon guy must be real good.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Greg Zanon had 2nd most blocked shots and 2 less games than the #1 guy who had 1 blocked shot more than Zanon (Girardi 125).

Zanon also had only 16 giveaways in 44 games one of the best among Colorado regulars. And 65 hits. 3rd among their Dman, 2nd basically if you don't count ROB.

This Zanon guy must be real good.

Cool! Is he UFA next season?

 

[Yemack]

firstly Wings have to apply some pressure to Ducks D. We can't let them come at us freely. Just being close to the their puck carrying D and extending stick close to D's blade is enough to cut down the angle.

secondly, Wings have to break through Ducks 2 men forechecking. How? I dont know. Study video? maybe defensive partners can do a better job giving support.

thirdly, we need a better plan breaking into their zone in PP. that 5 min PP was just .... if we are going to dump the puck in to their zone, which we will inevitably have to do alot of time, we need someone skating into the zone at the sametime. Wing had everyone standing on ducks blueline twiddling their thumb

finally, we have to win more battles.

if nothing works, throw the puck at the net

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Cool! Is he UFA next season?

The point was Greg Zanon sucks something awful, even if he has some decent defensive metrics. Just go ask Avs fans.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Lashoff blocks a lot of shots bc the opponent is shooting almost all the time he's on the ice.

Lots of hits and few giveaways bc he doesn't have the puck much.

Or along those lines.

Right. I don't think Lashoff is a good puck possession player. He's the opposite. When the Wings have the puck, he's basically not touching it. His partner does the work. He's also not really the type to help get it back. His style is sort of just to minimize the damage until the Wings can chip it up and out.