GDT: Game 5, part two

[Shoalzie]

I can see this going 7...the Joe crowd was amazing on Monday and I can see them will their way through Friday night. No major complaints about how they played...they obviously missed their chance to give themselves some breathing room with the 5-minute PP and then Getzlaf tied it up. He's not had nearly as many chances as Perry in the series but Getzlaf has been very efficient for them.

Win or lose, I can't say I'm too disappointed with this group...love seeing Nyquist, Andersson, Brunner and DeKeyser grow up before our eyes. The Ducks youth has really impressed me...Bonino, Beleskey, Etem...all have been solid. You get through the season with your stars but it's the supporting cast that can make the difference in winning a series.

 

[RedMenace]

For those questioning Lashoff playing:

Plus/minus: 0 (tied for 1st)
Hits: 6 (tied for 4th)
Blocked Shots: 6 (3rd)
Turnovers: 2 (tied for 2nd fewest)

In 3 games he's gotten as many or more hits than Quicey and Smith, and he's blocked more shots than Quincey, Ericsson, and Smith (who've all played 5 games). That's what they want him out there for.

As for those of us who defend him? Pay attention to other parts of his game. Is he out of position more than he should be? Sure. Does he make some questionable plays? Absolutely.

Is he a rookie with 31 games of regular season and 3 games of playoff experience?

Yep.

But hey, don't let little things like "facts" get in the way of finding a scapegoat.

 

[Winger98]

Watching Cogliano and Etem you really see how much we miss Helm. A guy like that can be so disruptive and really change the pace of a game.

Someone please explain why in a tight playoff series, Babcock chooses to leave two veteran Dmen on the bench and play and inexperienced, ineffective Brian Lashoff? I don't claim to be a coach but something is very wrong with this decision.

And the Getzlaff goal was a complete breakdown. I think you can blame Andersson,Emmerton,Kronwall and Big E. Total breakdown

Kudos to Eaves, who has really stepped up his game the last 3 weeks. Starting to look like pre-injury Eaves

Agree with posters that Emmerton should sit when Abby returns.

Friday is huge- Go Wings

Helm is a huge loss, not only because of his speed, but he's just a quality player. He wins 50%+ of his faceoffs, he eats up PK time, he gets in on the forecheck and takes the body...it's huge. The fourth line is better since Bert was inserted and Eaves upping his play, but Emmerton taking draws still means they start without the puck 60% of the time. Just having Andersonn there, winning more faceoffs, makes that line a lot better.

 

[DarkReign]

But hey, don't let little things like "facts" get in the way of finding a scapegoat.

Blowing coverage in overtime in game 5 of a 2-2 series isnt looking for a scapegoat, its reciting historical fact.

The same as Lilja forever being remember for gifting Selanne with that turnover. With Buckner, Lott, etc.

 

[pdd]

Our PP failed to score on the 5 min PP.

Actually, it was only around 4 minutes. Getzlaf and Smith made sure of that.

Why is Andersson and Emmerton out there under 1 min to go in the 2nd period on the PK?

Because they are two of our best PKers.

Emmerton and Andersson have been really good on the PK pressuring the points. HOWEVER, some combination of Dats, Z, Mule, Eaves NEEDED to be out there at that moment.

I like Franzen; I hate when he floats, I hate that he's not as physical as he should be, but I like him. But he's not as good a PKer as Emmerton or Andersson.

A lot of the Getz goal is on Ericsson/Kronwall.

Absolutely on Kronwall; he completely conceded the slot to Getzlaf when he should have taken it away. With Nik it has felt all year that he's trying to be too much like Lidstrom with fancy stickwork, when he should just get back to playing his game. If Kronwall was being Kronwall on that play, instead of trying to be Lidstrom, Getzlaf is on his ass.

I'd almost like to see Emmerton scratched and Abby playing 3rd or 4th line C. I like Emmerton, his forecheck/work ethic is great, but he's a liability in the faceoff circle

Yeah, but Emmerton has still been better than Cleary and is an effective forechecker and backchecker - and a much better skater. Move Emmerton to the wing with Franzen and Filppula, or push Nyquist up and put Emmerton in his place; he has the passing game to feed Brunner.

Smith and Kindl are at least bringing something to the table, Lashoff brings turnovers, porous d, and aneurisms for all Wings fans, well probably everyone except Babcock because he clearly has the blinders on.

Kindl I thought looked pretty darn good last night. Smith too. Lashoff was surprisingly non-bad for most of the night; unfortunately his failure to be able to play competent NHL hockey for any significant length of time cost the Wings the game.

Realistic scenario: with Abdelkader back in, he'll probably be back on the top line. Which means Emmerton stays in, and Samuelsson goes somewhere else. Likely to the second line, moving Cleary down to the fourth. And Eaves is out of the lineup.

Alternatively; Abdelkader comes back in directly for Samuelsson, and White comes in for Lashoff to provide that oh-so-important RH shot that scored us 0 goals on a 5 minute major last night.

I'm thinking of submitting my resume as special teams coach. It couldn't get any worse, right? The current level of success on the PP is basically because of the player talent level alone. And the PK...

 

[RedMenace]

Blowing coverage in overtime in game 5 of a 2-2 series isnt looking for a scapegoat, its reciting historical fact.

The same as Lilja forever being remember for gifting Selanne with that turnover. With Buckner, Lott, etc.

So Andersson and Nyquist get passes, but Lashoff gets all the blame?

Hokay, then.

 

[Winger98]

For those questioning Lashoff playing:

Plus/minus: 0 (tied for 1st)
Hits: 6 (tied for 4th)
Blocked Shots: 6 (3rd)
Turnovers: 2 (tied for 2nd fewest)

In 3 games he's gotten as many or more hits than Quicey and Smith, and he's blocked more shots than Quincey, Ericsson, and Smith (who've all played 5 games). That's what they want him out there for.

As for those of us who defend him?mod; pay attention to other parts of his game. Is he out of position more than he should be? Sure. Does he make some questionable plays? Absolutely.

Is he a rookie with 31 games of regular season and 3 games of playoff experience?

Yep.

But hey, don't let little things like "facts" get in the way of finding a scapegoat.

I think that what you mention regarding Lashoff making questionable decisions and having iffy positioning is a pretty solid reason for people not wanting him in the lineup right now. We have a bunch of young, inexperienced guys out there already, we don't need to compound that by putting another one out there who is even shakier making decisions and getting into the right spot. At least, we don't have to when we have two vets sitting on the bench, waiting to get in.

 

[pdd]

Blowing coverage in overtime in game 5 of a 2-2 series isnt looking for a scapegoat, its reciting historical fact.

The same as Lilja forever being remember for gifting Selanne with that turnover. With Buckner, Lott, etc.

It's not Buckner's fault he never learned to properly field a ground ball.

Seriously... get your body in front of it, and turn your shoulders inward. If you still have problems, have a few practices at catcher until you *get it*.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

For those questioning Lashoff playing:

Plus/minus: 0 (tied for 1st)
Hits: 6 (tied for 4th)
Blocked Shots: 6 (3rd)
Turnovers: 2 (tied for 2nd fewest)

In 3 games he's gotten as many or more hits than Quicey and Smith, and he's blocked more shots than Quincey, Ericsson, and Smith (who've all played 5 games). That's what they want him out there for.

As for those of us who defend him? mod; pay attention to other parts of his game. Is he out of position more than he should be? Sure. Does he make some questionable plays? Absolutely.

Is he a rookie with 31 games of regular season and 3 games of playoff experience?

Yep.

But hey, don't let little things like "facts" get in the way of finding a scapegoat.

Facts? He's terrible. Plain and simple. He can't cover his man to save his life.

 

[Heaton]

For those questioning Lashoff playing:

Plus/minus: 0 (tied for 1st)
Hits: 6 (tied for 4th)
Blocked Shots: 6 (3rd)
Turnovers: 2 (tied for 2nd fewest)

In 3 games he's gotten as many or more hits than Quicey and Smith, and he's blocked more shots than Quincey, Ericsson, and Smith (who've all played 5 games). That's what they want him out there for.

As for those of us who defend him?mod; pay attention to other parts of his game. Is he out of position more than he should be? Sure. Does he make some questionable plays? Absolutely.

Is he a rookie with 31 games of regular season and 3 games of playoff experience?

Yep.

But hey, don't let little things like "facts" get in the way of finding a scapegoat.

I'm not planning on reading any of the GDT but if people are blaming Lashoff more than anyone else for the loss I think that's wrong. I don't think Lashoff is very good, but I don't think he's as terrible as people think. Did he get dangled at the end? Yes. Did Andersson cover his man who scored? Nope. Did the Wings score on the 5 minute PP? Nope. There are so many other reasons why they lost the game, they were forechecked like crazy. Anaheim was the better team.

 

[pdd]

So Andersson and Nyquist get passes, but Lashoff gets all the blame?

Hokay, then.

Andersson gets almost as much blame as Lashoff; the big difference being that Andersson had to *react* to Lashoff screwing up and had less time, while Lashoff screwed up completely on his own.

Andersson failing to lift Bonino's stick was the final nail, but Lashoff went out and bought Anaheim the wood, nails, and the nail gun.

 

[Heaton]

Andersson gets almost as much blame as Lashoff; the big difference being that Andersson had to *react* to Lashoff screwing up and had less time, while Lashoff screwed up completely on his own.

Andersson failing to lift Bonino's stick was the final nail, but Lashoff went out and bought Anaheim the wood, nails, and the nail gun.

Andersson wasn't even looking at his guy though, any rebound and Bonino was wide open.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I'm not planning on reading any of the GDT but if people are blaming Lashoff more than anyone else for the loss I think that's wrong. I don't think Lashoff is very good, but I don't think he's as terrible as people think. Did he get dangled at the end? Yes. Did Andersson cover his man who scored? Nope. Did the Wings score on the 5 minute PP? Nope. There are so many other reasons why they lost the game, they were forechecked like crazy. Anaheim was the better team.

Anaheim IS a better team than us, and our only avenue of acquiring leverage is to capitalize on mistakes and not make our own.

Lashoff makes a lot of mistakes, and doesn't create mistakes for the other team. That blown play at the end of the game is a grand summation of his play during those 60+ minutes.

Nyquist created MANY chances tonight. On the other side of the coin, Quincey, who is widely regarded as awful as well, had a stable and relatively worry-free performance tonight (there might've been a screw up, I can't remember clearly) without making much happen offensively.

 

[pdd]

I'm not planning on reading any of the GDT but if people are blaming Lashoff more than anyone else for the loss I think that's wrong. I don't think Lashoff is very good, but I don't think he's as terrible as people think. Did he get dangled at the end?

No. He didn't. He ****ed up defensively because he left his position to pressure a guy, the turned AWAY from the puck when it became clear he wasn't going to get it. If he turns TOWARDS the puck, he might tip it away or block the passing lane.

A lot of the hate is directed at Babcock for playing him, and rightfully so; Lashoff is an AHL defenseman and that play is a microcosm displaying exactly why. A solely defensive defenseman who makes that kind of error is NOT an NHL caliber defenseman. I started at center, played center and wing in my teens, played forward and D in college, and NEVER made that kind of error except when I was first learning to play.

Yes. Did Andersson cover his man who scored? Nope. Did the Wings score on the 5 minute PP? Nope. There are so many other reasons why they lost the game, they were forechecked like crazy. Anaheim was the better team.

Anaheim was not the better team most of the game; just for small spurts. Detroit controlled play most of the game. Unfortunately, the small spurts Anaheim was better in was when Detroit made key mistakes and got scored on, whereas Detroit had something like 6 posts or "almost goals" such as Nyquist (IIRC) completely beating Hiller and tagging the inside of the left post behind him. A tenth of an inch one way and that's a goal.

 

[TheOtherOne]

For those questioning Lashoff playing:

Plus/minus: 0 (tied for 1st)
Hits: 6 (tied for 4th)
Blocked Shots: 6 (3rd)
Turnovers: 2 (tied for 2nd fewest)

Those stats don't really impress me.
Plus/minus: Okay, moderately useful, but doesn't say much on its own
Hits: Who cares, it's an unofficial stat, you can call any contact a hit and just because a guy throws a hit doesn't mean it was a good idea or had a positive result.
Blocked Shots: Decent, but a small sample size
Turnovers: Hard to turn the puck over when you never touch it to begin with.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

So Andersson and Nyquist get passes, but Lashoff gets all the blame?

Hokay, then.

Andersson appeared to just stand at the side of the net like a pylon when he could have poked the puck past the goalscorer into the boards. It looked like his stick may have been lifted beforehand, but it didn't appear it was the eventual goalscorer who did it...

 

[RedMenace]

I think that what you mention regarding Lashoff making questionable decisions and having iffy positioning is a pretty solid reason for people not wanting him in the lineup right now. We have a bunch of young, inexperienced guys out there already, we don't need to compound that by putting another one out there who is even shakier making decisions and getting into the right spot. At least, we don't have to when we have two vets sitting on the bench, waiting to get in.

Smith and Ericsson have turned the puck over more than anyone else on the defense; Smith and Quincey are both -2; Smith effectively buckles under pressure, but I don't see people calling for his head.

Though, I do agree that White and/or Cocoa would be better choices than Lashoff, Quincey, and/or Smith, but when the coach seems hell-bent on not playing certain players, what do you expect out of two rookies who have 8 games of playoff experience between them?

Facts? He's terrible. Plain and simple. He can't cover his man to save his life.

Good argument.

I'm not planning on reading any of the GDT but if people are blaming Lashoff more than anyone else for the loss I think that's wrong. I don't think Lashoff is very good, but I don't think he's as terrible as people think. Did he get dangled at the end? Yes. Did Andersson cover his man who scored? Nope. Did the Wings score on the 5 minute PP? Nope. There are so many other reasons why they lost the game, they were forechecked like crazy. Anaheim was the better team.

Again, apparently facts like those are irrelevant when it comes to witch hunts.

Andersson gets almost as much blame as Lashoff; the big difference being that Andersson had to *react* to Lashoff screwing up and had less time, while Lashoff screwed up completely on his own.

Andersson failing to lift Bonino's stick was the final nail, but Lashoff went out and bought Anaheim the wood, nails, and the nail gun.

Yeah, Lashoff bit on the deke and let Lovejoy walk him; Nyquist also misplayed Lovejoy along the boards.

 

[JPE123]

"As for those of us who defend him? Pay attention to other parts of his game. Is he out of position more than he should be? Sure. Does he make some questionable plays? Absolutely.

Is he a rookie with 31 games of regular season and 3 games of playoff experience?"

I think your last sentence is my only problem. He's inexperienced and that's exactly why I am questioning using him when White and CC are sitting on the bench. I don't think he's terrible like a lot of posters, I just don't think playoffs in a tight series is the place to test him when we already have inexperienced guys like smith, nyquist, andersson playing and veteran players are available

 

[Heaton]

"As for those of us who defend him? Pay attention to other parts of his game. Is he out of position more than he should be? Sure. Does he make some questionable plays? Absolutely.

Is he a rookie with 31 games of regular season and 3 games of playoff experience?"

I think your last sentence is my only problem. He's inexperienced and that's exactly why I am questioning using him when White and CC are sitting on the bench. I don't think he's terrible like a lot of posters, I just don't think playoffs in a tight series is the place to test him when we already have inexperienced guys like smith, nyquist, andersson playing and veteran players are available

I don't disagree that Lashoff shouldn't have played last night, but I think it's a cop out to only single that single moment of the game as a 'turning point'. There were so many other situations just as important. Send Lashoff to Siberia for all I care, but score on a ****ing 5 minute PP. We only got ONE shot right?

 

[JBauerly97]

So what is going on with the PP? Renney had a good PP in Edmonton didn't he?

 

[Winger98]

Smith and Ericsson have turned the puck over more than anyone else on the defense; Smith and Quincey are both -2; Smith effectively buckles under pressure, but I don't see people calling for his head.

Though, I do agree that White and/or Cocoa would be better choices than Lashoff, Quincey, and/or Smith, but when the coach seems hell-bent on not playing certain players, what do you expect out of two rookies who have 8 games of playoff experience between them?

You're not going to move me with +/- in this series. Kronwall is a -3, but I think he's clearly been our best D, and Ericsson has just as clearly been our second best D. They still make me long for the days of Lidstrom and whatever partner comes up on the Wheel-o-Whoevers, but Kronwall and E have stepped up.

I don't expect any of the rookies (including Kindl) to be mistake free, and I don't blame Lashoff for being dressed over the vets. He's on the ice, though, and there are better options, so he's going to take flak for it. It might be unfair, but he is. And so will Babcock. I was against dressing Lashoff before this game, I'm against it now. It's not his fault, but he shouldn't be on the ice.

With Smith/Kindl, I'm more okay living with their mistakes because they are better players. They are better now, they're likely to be better in the future, but part of that is just living with them screwing up once in awhile. And we have to dress somebody just to ice 6 D every night.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Had a dentist appointment this morning so I had to miss the game.

Man that is heartbreaking when you have a chance to go up 3-2 in the series. How did the team look as a whole? How was Howard?

Howard was great in the first.
but again...

I thought the team looked good -- especially in the second...

 

[Winger98]

I think we hit the post at least once, maybe twice on that 5min pp. We needed to score there, but it wasn't five whole minutes of utter futility.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

"As for those of us who defend him? Pay attention to other parts of his game. Is he out of position more than he should be? Sure. Does he make some questionable plays? Absolutely.

Is he a rookie with 31 games of regular season and 3 games of playoff experience?"

I think your last sentence is my only problem. He's inexperienced and that's exactly why I am questioning using him when White and CC are sitting on the bench. I don't think he's terrible like a lot of posters, I just don't think playoffs in a tight series is the place to test him when we already have inexperienced guys like smith, nyquist, andersson playing and veteran players are available

Lashoff wasn't even very good in Grand Rapids.

I don't mind sitting veterans for nearly-ready prospects.
But Lashoff has no future here.

 

[RedMenace]

Lashoff makes a lot of mistakes, and doesn't create mistakes for the other team. That blown play at the end of the game is a grand summation of his play during those 60+ minutes.

You must not be paying attention to the physical game he brings; I will agree that he had a rough night last night, but he's not nearly as bad as most here are claiming.

No. He didn't. He ****ed up defensively because he left his position to pressure a guy, the turned AWAY from the puck when it became clear he wasn't going to get it. If he turns TOWARDS the puck, he might tip it away or block the passing lane.

Lovejoy made a hard, quick cut toward the net when it looked like he was going behind; that's what Lashoff was playing, and that's why he was turned the wrong way.

A lot of the hate is directed at Babcock for playing him, and rightfully so; Lashoff is an AHL defenseman and that play is a microcosm displaying exactly why. A solely defensive defenseman who makes that kind of error is NOT an NHL caliber defenseman. I started at center, played center and wing in my teens, played forward and D in college, and NEVER made that kind of error except when I was first learning to play.

Alternatively, Lashoff is an NHL rookie with exactly 34 games of experience.

Also, that's cool that you played at the NHL level and can call someone out for making an error you never did there. Kudos to you.

Those stats don't really impress me.

I'm sorry those aren't good enough for you.

Games played: 31 (out of 48)
Hits: 44 (3rd)
Blocked Shots: 43 (3rd)
Giveaways: 11 (2nd fewest among those who played 20 games)

Yeah, his plus/minus was the worst on the team, but most of that came from Babcock inexplicably playing him on the top pairing with Kronwall.

You're not going to move me with +/- in this series. Kronwall is a -3, but I think he's clearly been our best D, and Ericsson has just as clearly been our second best D. They still make me long for the days of Lidstrom and whatever partner comes up on the Wheel-o-Whoevers, but Kronwall and E have stepped up.

Not trying to "move" anyone, just stating facts. I agree completely that Kronwall and E52 have stepped up their games, and am quite pleased with Ericsson's maturation as a player this season.

I don't expect any of the rookies (including Kindl) to be mistake free, and I don't blame Lashoff for being dressed over the vets. He's on the ice, though, and there are better options, so he's going to take flak for it. It might be unfair, but he is. And so will Babcock. I was against dressing Lashoff before this game, I'm against it now. It's not his fault, but he shouldn't be on the ice.

With Smith/Kindl, I'm more okay living with their mistakes because they are better players. They are better now, they're likely to be better in the future, but part of that is just living with them screwing up once in awhile. And we have to dress somebody just to ice 6 D every night.

Along with:

I think your last sentence is my only problem. He's inexperienced and that's exactly why I am questioning using him when White and CC are sitting on the bench. I don't think he's terrible like a lot of posters, I just don't think playoffs in a tight series is the place to test him when we already have inexperienced guys like smith, nyquist, andersson playing and veteran players are available

Well that's hardly Lashoff's fault, though. I mean, he's playing his hardest, and it's not like he doesn't also make good, solid plays with and without the puck (which most people seem to overlook); unfortunately, the mistakes he does make often turn into good scoring chances for the other team. That will hopefully change as he gets more experience.

I agree that Cocoa and/or White should be in, and should have been already.