GDT: Game 47: Avs @ Jets | Monday January 18th, 6pm MTN | Holiday Special

[dahrougem2]

Polak? Ew. The guy drags down everyone he plays with. I'd rather play Redmond.

Easy now

Though Polak does suck.

One player I wish the Avs targeted for the 3rd pairing in the summer was Eric Gryba, but we already had Stuart/Holden/Guenin/Redmond (at the time) all penciled for 5/6/7/8 roles and didn't need another 3rd pairing guy, nor do we need one today.

 

[henchman21]

Not necessarily this season, but between now and the 2017 trade deadline the Avs need an upgrade on the bottom pairing RD. I'm not talking about a player on the level of a Guenin/Redmond/Gormley/Bodnarchuk... but somebody that is a legit 5 and can play up in a pinch (Polak isn't that, but is an upgrade on the crap we have). EJ is going to be hurt for ~10+ games a season. Right now, the Avs are pushing a LD over to have a passable top 4... and the player they are pushing over isn't going to be able to play 25+ minutes a night forever. An upgrade needs to be found there at some point and that player needs to be safe and mean enough to help a kid transition to the NHL.

Give me a Polak for Guenin/Bodnarchuk + 4th/5th sort of deal any day of the week.

Polak? Ew. The guy drags down everyone he plays with. I'd rather play Redmond.

Redmond is a terrible bottom pairing defensemen to pair a kid with. Redmond would be fine if he was just an extra D that got in from time to time with an everyday LD. Not with players like Bigras and Zadorov.

 

[dahrougem2]

If Stuart comes back and they actually play him I think our playoff chances are gonna take a big hit.

That's a very, very large conclusion to draw from one player. He's still better than Zach Redmond and Nate Guenin

 

[tigervixxxen]

Not necessarily this season, but between now and the 2017 trade deadline the Avs need an upgrade on the bottom pairing RD. I'm not talking about a player on the level of a Guenin/Redmond/Gormley/Bodnarchuk... but somebody that is a legit 5 and can play up in a pinch (Polak isn't that, but is an upgrade on the crap we have). EJ is going to be hurt for ~10+ games a season. Right now, the Avs are pushing a LD over to have a passable top 4... and the player they are pushing over isn't going to be able to playe 25+ minutes a night forever. An upgrade needs to be found there at some point and that player needs to be safe and mean enough to help a kid transition to the NHL.

Give me a Polak for Guinen/Bodnarchuk + 4th/5th sort of deal any day of the week.



Redmond is a terrible bottom pairing defensemen to pair a kid with. Redmond would be fine if he was just an extra D that got in from time to time with an everyday LD. Not with players like Bigras and Zadorov.

That makes the most sense I've heard of this Avs need more defensemen business. However that takes a spot away from either Zadorov or Bigras next year. But it's probably wishful thinking to assume they'll both be in the starting 6 anyway.

 

[AvsRobin]

That's a very, very large conclusion to draw from one player. He's still better than Zach Redmond and Nate Guenin

I don't know how bad he would be after a break like this. But he was amongst the five worst d-man in the league last season, I don't think this time off has done him any good. Guenin or him? I dunno. I'd probably go Stuart (If every D on our AHL team is injured too)

 

[agentblack]

Not necessarily this season, but between now and the 2017 trade deadline the Avs need an upgrade on the bottom pairing RD. I'm not talking about a player on the level of a Guenin/Redmond/Gormley/Bodnarchuk... but somebody that is a? 5 and can play up in a pinch (Polak isn't that, but is an upgrade on the crap we have). EJ is going to be hurt for ~10+ games a season. Right now, the Avs are pushing a LD over to have a passable top 4... and the player they are pushing over isn't going to be able to playe 25+ minutes a night forever. An upgrade needs to be found there at some point and that player needs to be safe and mean enough to help a kid transition to the NHL.

Give me a Polak for Guinen/Bodnarchuk + 4th/5th sort of deal any day of the week.

Yeah exactly. I don't mind Polak but I'm just using him as an example of the type of guy they want ..imo..on the 3rd rhd. Kind of like how Greene was used by the Kings their playoff runs

 

[CobraAcesS]

Not necessarily this season, but between now and the 2017 trade deadline the Avs need an upgrade on the bottom pairing RD. I'm not talking about a player on the level of a Guenin/Redmond/Gormley/Bodnarchuk... but somebody that is a legit 5 and can play up in a pinch (Polak isn't that, but is an upgrade on the crap we have). EJ is going to be hurt for ~10+ games a season. Right now, the Avs are pushing a LD over to have a passable top 4... and the player they are pushing over isn't going to be able to playe 25+ minutes a night forever. An upgrade needs to be found there at some point and that player needs to be safe and mean enough to help a kid transition to the NHL.

Give me a Polak for Guinen/Bodnarchuk + 4th/5th sort of deal any day of the week.



Redmond is a terrible bottom pairing defensemen to pair a kid with. Redmond would be fine if he was just an extra D that got in from time to time with an everyday LD. Not with players like Bigras and Zadorov.

My hope would be that Holden takes that role with enough development from either of Bigras or Zadorov.

FB/Zadorov/Bigras - EJ

FB/Zadorov/Bigras - Barrie

Zadorov/Bigras - Holden

We know Holden can play the right side, but it's obviously up to one of the kids to kick him out of that spot. It's a healthy competition though.

Beauch will end up down there in the final year or two of his contract, 'ideally' anyways IMO.

 

[dahrougem2]

I don't know how bad he would be after a break like this. But he was amongst the five worst d-man in the league last season, I don't think this time off has done him any good. Guenin or him? I dunno. I'd probably go Stuart (If every D on our AHL team is injured too)

Again, I don't agree. We had two defensemen last year worse than him, Guenin and Redmond. I wouldn't say he was a bottom-5 defensemen in the league at all.

Hell right now I can tell you that Zach Redmond, Nate Guenin, Chris Phillips, Derek Engyllend, and Ladislav Smid were all worse than him and I wouldn't want any of those players touching the ice above Stuart. Throw Rob Scuderi in there, too. Throw Kimmo Timonen in his limited time in there. Throw Andrew Ference in there.

 

[henchman21]

We know Holden can play the right side, but it's obviously up to one of the kids to kick him out of that spot. It's a healthy competition though.

Holden could fill that spot, but he needs to show that he can play the right side at his current level of play still.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Holden could fill that spot, but he needs to show that he can play the right side at his current level of play still.

If Holden is with Bigras, then I'd have him on the right side. If hes with Zadorov, I'd play him on the left and let Zadorov free-wheel more offensively.

Kind of a lesser version of the Holden-Barrie pairing obviously.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Not necessarily this season, but between now and the 2017 trade deadline the Avs need an upgrade on the bottom pairing RD. I'm not talking about a player on the level of a Guenin/Redmond/Gormley/Bodnarchuk... but somebody that is a legit 5 and can play up in a pinch (Polak isn't that, but is an upgrade on the crap we have). EJ is going to be hurt for ~10+ games a season. Right now, the Avs are pushing a LD over to have a passable top 4... and the player they are pushing over isn't going to be able to play 25+ minutes a night forever. An upgrade needs to be found there at some point and that player needs to be safe and mean enough to help a kid transition to the NHL.

Give me a Polak for Guenin/Bodnarchuk + 4th/5th sort of deal any day of the week.



Redmond is a terrible bottom pairing defensemen to pair a kid with. Redmond would be fine if he was just an extra D that got in from time to time with an everyday LD. Not with players like Bigras and Zadorov.

If we have Zadorov and Bigras in the lineup why do we need another Dman next year?

Bigras - EJ
Beauch - Barrie
Zadorov - Holden

Both Holden and Zadorov (or Bigras if the two kids flipped) should be able to slot up. I don't think we will need another Dman until Beauchemin is done.

I honestly think Redmond has played his best with Bigras, Gormley and Zadorov the little they played together though I'm guessing that was just a fluke (Zadorov is a lot like Holden). He seems to be better with guys who can skate and move the puck as well. Holden - Redmond was a complete mess in the Dzone. No awareness between the two. Guenin - Redmond was bad because Redmond was asked to do everything in the Dzone (just like all of Guenin's partners), including getting the puck out of the zone by himself, while Guenin just stood in front of the net. Redmond is looking a lot better now that he has a partner he trusts to give the puck to and now that he isn't responsible for chasing the puck all over the ice and switching to various opponents based on who Guenin couldn't pick up (instead he can just focus on his man or his side while Bigras takes his man/side of the ice).

I wouldn't be opposed to upgrading Redmond, but I'm liking the idea of having good skaters and puck movers. As much as I like defensive guys, it just seems better to have guys who can move the puck and get the puck out of the DZ.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Holden could fill that spot, but he needs to show that he can play the right side at his current level of play still.

I wouldn't worry about the left/right thing. Bigras can play both sides as well. Sounds like Zadorov got a good amount of time in SA on the right too (not sure if that was something new or not, but sounds like he did good). Beauchemin can play either side as well, though he is probably with Barrie or EJ.

 

[henchman21]

Roy obviously wants Zadorov and Bigras on the left, he has made that a point in this brief call up. Eventually Beauch isn't going to be able to hold together in a top 4 role. That could come as soon as next season. Then when the annual EJ injury hits... the Avs lack a stabilizing presence on the right side and would be down to one capable right shot.

In the end, I think Bigras needs somebody to help stabilize things in the defensive zone and play a tough, hard nosed sort of game. It helps hide some of his weaknesses while his game matures. It would be extremely helpful if that player could also play a top 4 role when the EJ injury comes. Bigras isn't going to get a ton of minutes paired with somebody like Redmond because of the crappy plays Redmond makes consistently. Put Bigras next a Gudbranson type of #4/5 RD... then you have a pairing that can step up and play bigger minutes at a moments notice.

 

[Iceberg]

Roy obviously wants Zadorov and Bigras on the left, he has made that a point in this brief call up. Eventually Beauch isn't going to be able to hold together in a top 4 role. That could come as soon as next season. Then when the annual EJ injury hits... the Avs lack a stabilizing presence on the right side and would be down to one capable right shot.

In the end, I think Bigras needs somebody to help stabilize things in the defensive zone and play a tough, hard nosed sort of game. It helps hide some of his weaknesses while his game matures. It would be extremely helpful if that player could also play a top 4 role when the EJ injury comes. Bigras isn't going to get a ton of minutes paired with somebody like Redmond because of the crappy plays Redmond makes consistently. Put Bigras next a Gudbranson type of #4/5 RD... then you have a pairing that can step up and play bigger minutes at a moments notice.

If Zadorov and Bigras are in the starting lineup, that new defenseman will be the 7th dman, and ideally should be a RHD, like you said.

But who fits that description that is better than Guenin and Redmond, but at the same time would be OK will a reduced role?

Would guys like Lovejoy, Gryba, Holzer fit the description? Maybe guys like Potter, Kostka?

 

[henchman21]

If Zadorov and Bigras are in the starting lineup, that new defenseman will be the 7th dman, and ideally should be a RHD, like you said.

But who fits that description that is better than Guenin and Redmond, but at the same time would be OK will a reduced role?

I'd make a different argument... if you want both Zadorov and Bigras in the opening night lineup next year, Holden should be the 7th D. Not real likely IMO, but I think it would be the right move.

If we are looking at purely extra RD, Pateryn is a name I would target.

 

[Iceberg]

I'd make a different argument... if you want both Zadorov and Bigras in the opening night lineup next year, Holden should be the 7th D. Not real likely IMO, but I think it would be the right move.

If we are looking at purely extra RD, Pateryn is a name I would target.

Like you said, not real likely, and not really fair to him, after the season he is having.

At least he should be on the 3rd pairing, even if he has to move to the right side.

Edit: what about the guys i listed, would they be an improvement over Guenin and Redmond as the 7th dman?

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Roy obviously wants Zadorov and Bigras on the left, he has made that a point in this brief call up. Eventually Beauch isn't going to be able to hold together in a top 4 role. That could come as soon as next season. Then when the annual EJ injury hits... the Avs lack a stabilizing presence on the right side and would be down to one capable right shot.

In the end, I think Bigras needs somebody to help stabilize things in the defensive zone and play a tough, hard nosed sort of game. It helps hide some of his weaknesses while his game matures. It would be extremely helpful if that player could also play a top 4 role when the EJ injury comes. Bigras isn't going to get a ton of minutes paired with somebody like Redmond because of the crappy plays Redmond makes consistently. Put Bigras next a Gudbranson type of #4/5 RD... then you have a pairing that can step up and play bigger minutes at a moments notice.

I wouldn't say that's obvious just because that's how they have been used in their brief call up. It's still very early.

Let's say Beauchemin isn't able to play those minutes anymore.

Zadorov - EJ
Holden - Barrie
Bigras - Beauch

Beauchemin then becomes that 3RD you are describing. Maybe he won't be able to play top4 minutes every night, but he should be able to fill in when injuries hit.

Redmond isn't in the top6 in this scenario though. The only point I see in bringing in another Dman by next year's trade dead line is if Bigras or Zadorov is still in SA. I would be surprised if either were still down there by then. Basically, if we traded for or brought in another Dman of that caliber (#4,5) he would basically be replacing Bigras/Zadorov, who would be stuck in SA until 18-19 when Holden and Beauchemin come off the books. Redmond (or similar caliber player) is still going to be the #7, #8 and on the third pair when injuries hit.

 

[henchman21]

Edit: what about the guys i listed, would they be an improvement over Guenin and Redmond as the 7th dman?

Gryba I like... the others I am pretty meh on.

I wouldn't say that's obvious just because that's how they have been used in their brief call up. It's still very early.

Let's say Beauchemin isn't able to play those minutes anymore.

Zadorov - EJ
Holden - Barrie
Bigras - Beauch

Beauchemin then becomes that 3RD you are describing. Maybe he won't be able to play top4 minutes every night, but he should be able to fill in when injuries hit.

Redmond isn't in the top6 in this scenario though. The only point I see in bringing in another Dman by next year's trade dead line is if Bigras or Zadorov is still in SA. I would be surprised if either were still down there by then. Basically, if we traded for or brought in another Dman of that caliber (#4,5) he would basically be replacing Bigras/Zadorov, who would be stuck in SA until 18-19 when Holden and Beauchemin come off the books. Redmond (or similar caliber player) is still going to be the #7, #8 and on the third pair when injuries hit.

EJ gets injured (like he will) and they are down to one legit right shot. It makes it easier to game plan and forecheck. I think even with Bigras and Zadorov in the lineup there is a need for a RD on this roster and not in the Guenin/Redmond mold. There is a numbers game here, but a manageable one.

I'm not saying spend to the moon, but getting somebody in here who can play an every night role for ~15-16 minutes and step up occasionally would be a very smart move to make if they intend to keep Bigras and Zadorov around.

 

[Iceberg]

Gryba I like... the others I am pretty meh on.

Yeah, but for the 7th D we can not expect much more than a "meh" player. As long as he is better than Guenin and Redmond i'm happy.

Before the season i suggested Franson for the 3rd pairing and i still believe he would have been a nice addition.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Gryba I like... the others I am pretty meh on.



EJ gets injured (like he will) and they are down to one legit right shot. It makes it easier to game plan and forecheck. I think even with Bigras and Zadorov in the lineup there is a need for a RD on this roster and not in the Guenin/Redmond mold. There is a numbers game here, but a manageable one.

I'm not saying spend to the moon, but getting somebody in here who can play an every night role for ~15-16 minutes and step up occasionally would be a very smart move to make if they intend to keep Bigras and Zadorov around.

I'm just not that big into left hand or right hand. If you can play the right side you can play the right side IMO. I could care less if someone walked on there hands and used there mouth to play with my toddlers hockey stick as long as they were good at it, lol.

I just don't like the idea of stalling Bigras/Zadorov's jump to the nhl that much longer. And I just can't see Holden being benched. Don't get me wrong, it would be awesome if we had a lineup talented enough to push Holden to #7, but that guy is probably going to cost a good amount in cap and assets (if traded for). I mean, Roy really likes Holden and he has been playing good for quite awhile now and he doesn't cost much, so the guy is going to need to be pretty good and probably fairly cheap. He will need to be better than just a 15-16 minute a night player to push Holden to the bench. And I'm just not sure what an 18-20 minute a night guy would cost. We will already be close to the cap.

 

[linusandvarlamov]

I just don't like the idea of stalling Bigras/Zadorov's jump to the nhl that much longer.

Yeah, same here. I also just really hope Sakic/Roy don't decide to trade one of these two defensemen before the trade deadline.

The future on D looks bright if we keep these two youngsters : Zads, Bigras, Barrie, Johnson and obviously some more up and coming prospects (Meloche as an example).

 

[henchman21]

I just don't like the idea of stalling Bigras/Zadorov's jump to the nhl that much longer.

This is the point you are missing in what I am saying here. The addition of a 4/5 RD would speed that process up. That player can help Bigras get accustomed to the NHL and get him bigger minutes, sooner than if he is saddled with Redmond or Guenin. Nor do I see anything in Holden's game that shows he can carry Bigras when Bigras is having some issues.

Holden may be the casualty of this, but the sooner that Bigras and Zadorov can get established, the sooner the defense can be a strength of this team and not a patchwork.

At VERY least, the Avs should upgrade the extra RD spot that Guenin and Redmond occupy. That way when injuries to happen, they can have a competent player consistently with Bigras. If I was the Avs, I'd be trying to package Siemens with a pick to land a RD in the 22-25 age range who is fairly established in the NHL.

I can say there is a side to side difference with a number of defensemen, many prefer one side or the other and mostly it goes by handedness. Having only one right shot defense would also limit the way this team can play in every phase of the game. Breakouts are different, PK pairings have to be different, the PP has to be setup differently (especially with the Avs two best PP defensemen being right shots). Holden has played the right side before... he has never played the right side at an acceptable level in the NHL.

 

[ArWKo]

MvsW had a great interview with Bill Peters of the Hurricanes (who coaches a SUPER young defense doing some really incredible stuff in Carolina) and he was asked how "married" he is to running with 3 LD on the left and 3 RD on the right and he said he was 100% married to it, and if it were up to him they'd have 4 RD and 4 LD so they could always have a D on their correct side.

Talked about how while guys CAN play on their opposite side, even the best of the best don't play as well on their off side as they would on their correct side, specifically talking about keeping plays alive in the o-zone along the wall and taking the rush through the NZ.

I tend to be on that side and would much rather pick up a serviceable RD to complete that side then try to shoehorn a young guy especially on his off side or put someone who will just have a liability added to their game by being there.