Post-Game Talk: Game 4: Wait.... There's Hockey tonight too? Flyers v Blackhawks

[JaegerDice]

21st in shots against in 2015. 2nd in Goals against and a Jennings for Crawford.

The D wasn't good in 2015.

This is true, but when you look at the last 25 games of the season (post Kane injury, post TDL) the entire team tightened up a ton.

And through the playoffs, the top 4 was pretty damn stellar.

Granted, for Seabrook, that stretch stands as the anomaly since 2013. But early indications this season are encouraging.

 

[JaegerDice]

Technically yes, but it was Stan's "speculation" that came up with those inflated salary numbers. He was the one who broke the rules of good business practice.

Obviously every dollar matters in the cap era, but let's take a look at some of the highest contracts in the NHL...

Anze Kopitar: 10mil

Are Kane and Toews worth roughly the same as Kopitar? Yes

Jamie Benn: 9.5

Are Kane and Toews worth a million more than Benn? No, they should be about the same.

Ovechkin: 9.5

Are Kane and Toews worth a million more than Ovechkin? No, they should be about the same.


Malkin: 9.5

Are Kane and Toews worth a million more than Malkin? IMO yes, they're more complete players with more durability, many would argue no tho.

Crosby: 8.7

Are Kane and Toews worth two million more than Crosby? Hell no, this is a massive sweetheart deal from a superstitious kid.

Perry: 8.5

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Perry? Yes.

Stamkos: 8.5

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Stamkos? Yes.

Giroux: 8.2

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Giroux? Yes.

Voracek: 8.2

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Voracek? Yes.

Getzlaf: 8.2

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Getzlaf? Yes.

Kessel: 8.0

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Kessel? Yes.

Nash: 7.8

Are Kane and Toews worth 3 million more than Nash? Yes.

Tarasenko, Spezza, Oreilly, Parise: 7.5

Etc

With the exception of Crosby, Ovechkin and Benn, I'd argue Toews and Kane are fairly paid relative to their big-contract peers.

 

[BobbyJet]

This organization isn't going to nickel and dime its players, especially its two faces of the franchise. Either come to terms with that fact or ***** about it every chance you get on message boards, but after the history of this organization with Dollar Bill, the Blackhawks go out of their way to accommodate players wants and needs. Is there going to be instances were you could have saved some $ on these deals? Yeah, but the organization doesn't think those savings are worth playing hardball with its stars, and I don't blame them.

Reading between the lines, what you're really saying is that keeping certain players happy and team image seems to be more important than the product on the ice.

I'd much prefer a tough but fair negotiator who puts the team (and it's chances to succeed going forward) ahead of marketing and image.... but it's too late for that. Stan along with Toews/Kane and their agents have collectively dug a hole for this team that they may never climb out of. Even accepting $ 1 M or $ 1.5 M less each would have made a substantial difference going forward. Meanwhile the list of players, some core players lost grows each year and are replaced with ELC's (or close to it, dollar wise).

 

[Venthon]

Reading between the lines, what you're really saying is that keeping certain players happy and team image seems to be more important than the product on the ice.

I'd much prefer a tough but fair negotiator who puts the team (and it's chances to succeed going forward) ahead of marketing and image.... but it's too late for that. Stan along with Toews/Kane and their agents have collectively dug a hole for this team that they may never climb out of. Even accepting $ 1 M or $ 1.5 M less each would have made a substantial difference going forward. Meanwhile the list of players, some core players lost grows each year and are replaced with ELC's (or close to it, dollar wise).

Shades of old DBW coming on strong here.

 

[BobbyJet]

Shades of old DBW coming on strong here.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Stevie Y and Stamkos. It took months for the negotiations to be finalized but it was worth it for TB going forward. And Stamkos is still happy though I'm sure he wanted more money (and could have got it elsewhere).

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

Reading between the lines, what you're really saying is that keeping certain players happy and team image seems to be more important than the product on the ice.

I'd much prefer a tough but fair negotiator who puts the team (and it's chances to succeed going forward) ahead of marketing and image.... but it's too late for that. Stan along with Toews/Kane and their agents have collectively dug a hole for this team that they may never climb out of. Even accepting $ 1 M or $ 1.5 M less each would have made a substantial difference going forward. Meanwhile the list of players, some core players lost grows each year and are replaced with ELC's (or close to it, dollar wise).

Yeah, you're talking about 8-12 million dollars, that may very well make a substantial difference going forward for Toews and Kane.

Replacing players with guys on ELC's was always part of the plan anyway.

 

[Backyard Hockey]

Why? He had a fight. So he's got 2 minors in 4 games. That's in line with his career numbers.

Because I don't want to see one of the best players on the team - a penalty killer, a PP guy, one of the only centers who can win FO - in the box. Especially when the PK sucks so badly.

 

[Venthon]

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Stevie Y and Stamkos. It took months for the negotiations to be finalized but it was worth it for TB going forward. And Stamkos is still happy though I'm sure he wanted more money (and could have got it elsewhere).

Fair point, but I also understand the decision Stan made as well.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Obviously every dollar matters in the cap era, but let's take a look at some of the highest contracts in the NHL...

Anze Kopitar: 10mil

Are Kane and Toews worth roughly the same as Kopitar? Yes

Jamie Benn: 9.5

Are Kane and Toews worth a million more than Benn? No, they should be about the same.

Ovechkin: 9.5

Are Kane and Toews worth a million more than Ovechkin? No, they should be about the same.


Malkin: 9.5

Are Kane and Toews worth a million more than Malkin? IMO yes, they're more complete players with more durability, many would argue no tho.

Crosby: 8.7

Are Kane and Toews worth two million more than Crosby? Hell no, this is a massive sweetheart deal from a superstitious kid.

Perry: 8.5

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Perry? Yes.

Stamkos: 8.5

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Stamkos? Yes.

Giroux: 8.2

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Giroux? Yes.

Voracek: 8.2

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Voracek? Yes.

Getzlaf: 8.2

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Getzlaf? Yes.

Kessel: 8.0

Are Kane and Toews worth 2 million more than Kessel? Yes.

Nash: 7.8

Are Kane and Toews worth 3 million more than Nash? Yes.

Tarasenko, Spezza, Oreilly, Parise: 7.5

Etc

With the exception of Crosby, Ovechkin and Benn, I'd argue Toews and Kane are fairly paid relative to their big-contract peers.

So you wouldn't trade 10.5M Toews for 7.5M Tarasenko?

 

[rick hawk]

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Stevie Y and Stamkos. It took months for the negotiations to be finalized but it was worth it for TB going forward. And Stamkos is still happy though I'm sure he wanted more money (and could have got it elsewhere).

I could never understand something as simple as an even ten million apiece. Would that have been unacceptable?? They would still have been the top paid players at the time and I million extra per year could mean the difference between keeping a valued player or not. I don't understand why they wrenched out every dollar possible from the team. There was not even a hint of a hometown discount for a team and its fanbase that by all accounts has been nothing but good to them.

 

[JaegerDice]

So you wouldn't trade 10.5M Toews for 7.5M Tarasenko?

If you can tell me what top 10 C we could afford with the remaining 3 million, then maybe I'd consider it.

I wouldn't feel particularly confident with Anisimov, schmaltz, Ras and Kruger down the middle.

Kane vs Tarasenko with contracts considered is a more interesting discussion.

 

[Stu Cazzo]

So you wouldn't trade 10.5M Toews for 7.5M Tarasenko?

Based on what we've seen so far....nope.

Vlad is just a goal scorer and when he was on his biggest stage last year he was one of the Blues worst players (vs. San Jose).

Toews is a leader who put tenacious defense first and is one of the most clutch players ever when it comes to big games.

 

[Stu Cazzo]

I could never understand something as simple as an even ten million apiece. Would that have been unacceptable?? They would still have been the top paid players at the time and I million extra per year could mean the difference between keeping a valued player or not. I don't understand why they wrenched out every dollar possible from the team. There was not even a hint of a hometown discount for a team and its fanbase that by all accounts has been nothing but good to them.

The players union combined with the agents will never leave money on the table.

 

[rick hawk]

The players union combined with the agents will never leave money on the table.

Others have done it, Mr. Cazzo.

 

[JaegerDice]

Others have done it, Mr. Cazzo.

The only guy with a comparable resume to Toews and Kane at the time of signing was Kopitar, and he got 10 million.

Stamkos has one Richard, no cups. Benn has one Art Ross, no cups. Crosby and Ovechkin were signed pre-CBA so they have cheap years tacked on to bring the cap hit down. Getzlaf and Perry have one Hart between them and a cup they won as part of a 3rd line.

Who are these elite franchise players with similar resumes getting great deals? The fact Stamkos could have got 12+ on the market doesn't make him worth that any more than the fact Toews and Kane could have got same makes them worth 12+

 

[Stu Cazzo]

Correct me if I'm wrong...Stamkos doesn't have to pay state income tax.

JT and Kane are probably getting bent over from Chicago taxes...

 

[Stu Cazzo]

As a Tampa Bay Times analysis in January showed, Stamkos could net nearly the same annually after taxes in Tampa Bay at $8.5 million as $10 million in New York (Rangers, Islanders), presuming he'd be a New York City resident; Stamkos would make more over the length of the deal in Tampa because of the extra year. Stamkos would net $500,000 less annually than a $10 million deal with Detroit, another strong suitor, but, again, more over the length of the deal.

And Stamkos' hometown Maple Leafs, due to a 53.53 percent combined federal/provincial tax rate, would have to offer him $12.37 million annually over seven years to net the same as he'd make over eight years at $8.5 million in Tampa, according to national sports tax guru Robert Raiola, the director of the Sports and Entertainment group at PKF O'Connor Davis, who has professional sports clients throughout the country.

 

[piteus]

As a Tampa Bay Times analysis in January showed, Stamkos could net nearly the same annually after taxes in Tampa Bay at $8.5 million as $10 million in New York (Rangers, Islanders), presuming he'd be a New York City resident; Stamkos would make more over the length of the deal in Tampa because of the extra year. Stamkos would net $500,000 less annually than a $10 million deal with Detroit, another strong suitor, but, again, more over the length of the deal.

And Stamkos' hometown Maple Leafs, due to a 53.53 percent combined federal/provincial tax rate, would have to offer him $12.37 million annually over seven years to net the same as he'd make over eight years at $8.5 million in Tampa, according to national sports tax guru Robert Raiola, the director of the Sports and Entertainment group at PKF O'Connor Davis, who has professional sports clients throughout the country.

If you work in NYC, you get taxed like you live in NYC. They changed the rule after my colleagues lived in Conn but worked at funds in NYC to get around taxes. That's why so many hedge funds have alternative offices in Connecticut.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

The only guy with a comparable resume to Toews and Kane at the time of signing was Kopitar, and he got 10 million.

Stamkos has one Richard, no cups. Benn has one Art Ross, no cups. Crosby and Ovechkin were signed pre-CBA so they have cheap years tacked on to bring the cap hit down. Getzlaf and Perry have one Hart between them and a cup they won as part of a 3rd line.

Who are these elite franchise players with similar resumes getting great deals? The fact Stamkos could have got 12+ on the market doesn't make him worth that any more than the fact Toews and Kane could have got same makes them worth 12+

Correct me if I'm wrong...Stamkos doesn't have to pay state income tax.

JT and Kane are probably getting bent over from Chicago taxes...

Eggsackly right.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I could be wrong but my understanding is that athletes have to pay taxes everywhere they play. Like 50% gets taxed at your home tax rate but you do pay Missouri taxes when you play the Blues for example.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I could be wrong but my understanding is that athletes have to pay taxes everywhere they play. Like 50% gets taxed at your home tax rate but you do pay Missouri taxes when you play the Blues for example.

I believe this is true. Pro athletes have seriously complicated tax situations.

The rates ARE insane, in general, though. This is interesting to look at.

http://gavingroup.ca/personal-income-tax-rates-in-nhl-cities/

So Toews and Kane pay roughly 4.6m to taxes. From my understanding of it. Unless I'm just an idiot and not comprehending what they're calculating.

It's also interesting to note, Chicago is actually one of the lower ones, from glancing through them. Most are in the mid-high 40's, percentage-wise.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I guess it makes sense that Chicago is actually on the lower end of taxes when you consider the other markets. You have the Canadian teams who pay a lot more. Then you have California and NY that are taxed at higher rates. That's more than half the league right there.

 

[piteus]

I could be wrong but my understanding is that athletes have to pay taxes everywhere they play. Like 50% gets taxed at your home tax rate but you do pay Missouri taxes when you play the Blues for example.

Yes ... you are right.

 

[rick hawk]

I makes you wonder why more free agents that are tied to entry level contracts like Vesey, Hayes and Panarin don't sign with Florida teams.

 

[Blue Liner]

I believe this is true. Pro athletes have seriously complicated tax situations.

The rates ARE insane, in general, though. This is interesting to look at.

http://gavingroup.ca/personal-income-tax-rates-in-nhl-cities/

So Toews and Kane pay roughly 4.6m to taxes. From my understanding of it. Unless I'm just an idiot and not comprehending what they're calculating.

It's also interesting to note, Chicago is actually one of the lower ones, from glancing through them. Most are in the mid-high 40's, percentage-wise.

You have to take into account not only taxes, but escrow percentage and around 5%-ish going to the agent, as well.