Post-Game Talk: Game 4: Wait.... There's Hockey tonight too? Flyers v Blackhawks

[Stu Cazzo]

It's not haters, it's people expecting the highest paid player in the league to perform as such - especially after a bad prior season.

What numbers do you demand from Toews?

His career numbers say he'll be around 65 to 70 points per year...he had 58 last year on a line that was constantly changing.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Regardless of whether or not they play Darling or Crawford, it's just going to mask the fact that we're paying a buttload of money to a defense that hasn't brought it since 2013.

2015 says hello

 

[mikee]

The Blackhawks defense is relatively cheap. Keith, Hjalmarsson, Campbell, Kempny all have cap hits significantly below what they would get on open market. They are not "not playing up to their pay grade". Maybe they are not living up to their reps at this point, but the hawks defense is actually cheaply put together for a top tier group.

This team is playing a bunch of rookies, many of the vets played in the WC and missd most of camp, and beyond the rooks there are a couple of other new faces. This team had barely played together as a group. Probably shouldn't panic that this isn't a well oiled machine yet. They are still 2-2 despite playing poor ST against a tough early schedule. Everyone needs to calm down.

Yes the d zone coverage has been rough, yes they are still a top 6 winger short. I have confidence the d zone coverage will gradually improve with more experience for the rooks and as the team gels. The winger likely has to come from outside the org though.

???-Toews-Panik
Panarin-AA-Kane
Motte-Schmaltz-Hossa
Desi/Ras-Kruger-Hartman
Tootoo

Just got to find a playmaker for Toews. TvR+ should be able to bring back a decent option. Would really help if that bum in LA would retire and open up some cap space to give Hawks more options down the road.

 

[hawksfan50]

But my point on Toews was that even if he is not scoring or has turned into merely a streak scorer like last year when we hot that 6 week period of "normal" production from him. .even if nit scoring..where is he winning puck battles as he did prior to most 9f last season? Whwre us he stripping g pucks off guys in the D-zone to bust up.plays and transition out?I have not seen those once lauded traits manifest. .Pk...only 4 games
..slow start.

But you think on other team.paying a player so highly would accept both non-productive
play and also not doing the things in board battles and defensively that he was known for with a 4 game mulligan? Come on...hard questions about his pkay SHOULD be asked just as any other team with a poor performing star nowhere near his own standards would be put to the mirror.

4 games only...yes
But we are getting impatient and to be frank...worried..that either he never again will be like we saw
in his first 6 years ...or that he has become ONLY a streak player who gives spurts of good play interpersonal between longer spurts of meh to poor play. His own play is neither leading or inspiring anymore
...physical or mental problem or merely succumbing to the fay-cat I have it made amd do not need to win puck battles or races to. loose pucks ...or check hard..or be hard on the puck like I was in my early years Syndrome.Has he gone fat-cat on us? THAT is my worry.Maybe in his own mind he does not believe he is worth his pay level...cause he sure has not played like he thinks he is worth it

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Hawks have given up 9 of their 16 goals on the PK. I think the defense has been ok, not great in general. Obviously, defense is related to the PK, but fix the PK and I think they are in good shape. Also, stay out of the box.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Haters? Why do people use that teenager word?

It's not haters, it's people expecting the highest paid player in the league to perform as such - especially after a bad prior season.

4 games in and he has 1 point (an assist), no goals and 9 PIM. That's average to poor. He's paid as the highest paid player in the league and is expected to perform as such.

Why worry about the word I use to describe those who are super critical of Toews? Would it have made you feel better if I said "Those who are super critical" instead of haters? Wasn't aware it was a "teenager word". I guess I should brush up on my vocabulary in my high school english class, huh?

For the bolded... hockey is a streaky sport. Players get hot and cold numerous times throughout a season, for the most part. He's 4 games into an 82 game season... That's 5% of a season, roughly. If he's got 10 or 15 points in his first 30 or 40 games, then I'd be concerned. But 4 games in, I wouldn't. Especially when he's working with two entirely new linemates trying to build chemistry. He played great in the WC, did he not? So what's the concern? So if he scores 75 points over the next 78 games, will he have had a terrible year because he had one point in his first 4? Sound logic there.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Darling also made at least three or four 10-bell saves, a few of them early, and then later with ops pressing. He wasn't perfect but in essence Darling stole the game. It seems pretty obvious that Hawks are going to need more of the same in this young season.

And Crawford hasn't made any good saves in any of his starts?

 

[Backyard Hockey]

Tean struggles to score goals last year. Score 7 goals very early in the season with 6 rookies in the lineup. Log on to HF and the same people as always are *****ing. Classic.

Besides that terrible 5 minute stretch of hockey I saw a lot of good things last night. However, Hino needs to get sent down though imo. He's really the only Blackhawk I haven't seen contribute anything so far. Puck seems to just die on his stick.



Shhh. You're not allowed to talk about stans good moves on here. You can only keep harping on the couple bad moves he had to make for cap reasons. You should know this.

It's fair to criticize. They pissed away a 4 goal lead, which including pissing away a 3 goal 3rd period lead in about a 5 minute period.

Up 4-0 with 4 min left in the 2nd to tied 5 minutes into the 3rd? That should never happen. Ever.

 

[Backyard Hockey]

What numbers do you demand from Toews?

His career numbers say he'll be around 65 to 70 points per year...he had 58 last year on a line that was constantly changing.

I want 65-70.

Fair ask.

 

[JaegerDice]

 

[Backyard Hockey]

The Blackhawks defense is relatively cheap. Keith, Hjalmarsson, Campbell, Kempny all have cap hits significantly below what they would get on open market. They are not "not playing up to their pay grade". Maybe they are not living up to their reps at this point, but the hawks defense is actually cheaply put together for a top tier group.

This team is playing a bunch of rookies, many of the vets played in the WC and missd most of camp, and beyond the rooks there are a couple of other new faces. This team had barely played together as a group. Probably shouldn't panic that this isn't a well oiled machine yet. They are still 2-2 despite playing poor ST against a tough early schedule. Everyone needs to calm down.

Yes the d zone coverage has been rough, yes they are still a top 6 winger short. I have confidence the d zone coverage will gradually improve with more experience for the rooks and as the team gels. The winger likely has to come from outside the org though.

???-Toews-Panik
Panarin-AA-Kane
Motte-Schmaltz-Hossa
Desi/Ras-Kruger-Hartman
Tootoo

Just got to find a playmaker for Toews. TvR+ should be able to bring back a decent option. Would really help if that bum in LA would retire and open up some cap space to give Hawks more options down the road.

I would venture to say that Stan is actively working the phones to trade TVR. He played an abysmal first game and he just won't see the ice anymore. Perhaps him and Tootoo can bring back an Italian beef sandwich from Al's Beef?

TVR and Tootoo won't be on the Hawks roster in 8 weeks. Hinostroza will be back in Rockford by the end of next week.

 

[Backyard Hockey]

Even when the Hawks win these pages explode with negativity. Lots of positives from that game, like how Schmaltz and Motte played. They looked great because the Hawks desperately need these rookies to work out.

Cmon man. The Hawks crapped away a 4 goal lead in a 10 minute span. That's gonna get people's hackles up. As it should.

 

[JaegerDice]

Small sample sizes are a hell of a drug.

I'm not concerned about Toews at all thus far, based on what little we've seen. If the current pattern holds, production will come. The big issue for him last season was that he was getting his balls kicked in every night in possession. This season he's back to 57% CF through 4 games.

The Kane line was a dumpster fire through 3 games and went off on one night to boost their totals. Which is great, and we surely needed them given the team's defensive woes right now, but the sum total of all those points is still one W worth 2 points in the standings.

Far more concerned about the process than the point totals this early in the season.

The entire team needs to get better at suppression opposing SOG and scoring chances though. Given the talent on the back end it should come together as the kids learn to play better 200ft.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Watched the highlights from last night. Kane's face after he scored his first goal of the season was great. He wasn't even happy, it was more of a "about ****in time" face

 

[Backyard Hockey]

Why worry about the word I use to describe those who are super critical of Toews? Would it have made you feel better if I said "Those who are super critical" instead of haters? Wasn't aware it was a "teenager word". I guess I should brush up on my vocabulary in my high school english class, huh?

For the bolded... hockey is a streaky sport. Players get hot and cold numerous times throughout a season, for the most part. He's 4 games into an 82 game season... That's 5% of a season, roughly. If he's got 10 or 15 points in his first 30 or 40 games, then I'd be concerned. But 4 games in, I wouldn't. Especially when he's working with two entirely new linemates trying to build chemistry. He played great in the WC, did he not? So what's the concern? So if he scores 75 points over the next 78 games, will he have had a terrible year because he had one point in his first 4? Sound logic there.

I don't have confidence that he'll score 78 points. I'm glad you do.

I'm particularly concerned about the 9 penalty minutes and the PK.

When it comes to Toews, there seem to be two camps.

- He's Toews. He'll be great. Just wait and see. Give it time.

- His play over the last year was bad. Is he dropping off? Is he losing focus?

Glass half full, I guess. At end of the day, it's very simple. He is the highest paid player in the NHL. With that comes expectations. New line mates or not. The highest paid player should make OTHER players better. Kane got Panarin a Calder. Kane turned a journeyman center into a legit 2C center. The 2nd line had 11 points last night. Kane helped his linemates get many of those points.

I expect Toews to make OTHERS better, not rely on others to make his numbers come.

If he was a $5-6M player, these comments wouldn't be prevalent. 58 points is not the production expected from the highest paid player in the league.

Remember, the fact the he is making $10.5M is a good part of the reason the Hawks in are cap hell. The fact that he (and Kane) are making $10.5M is the reason guys like Saad and Oduya and others aren't on this team. If you're going to mortgage the team with that cap hit from two players, you'd better get the production. 58 points last year isn't.

But you guys are right. It's only 4 games and we should be patient. It all comes down to which Toews you think we'll see. The guy who had 68 points in 76 games in 2013 or the guy who had 58 points through 80 in 2015. I realize it was 28 goals in both seasons, but let's not kid ourselves. The 28 goals last season were padded with, what 6-8 3:3 goals? I know those goals count just the same, but those goals are much easier to come by versus the 5:5 goals that we need/expect.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I don't have confidence that he'll score 78 points. I'm glad you do.

I'm particularly concerned about the 9 penalty minutes and the PK.

When it comes to Toews, there seem to be two camps.

- He's Toews. He'll be great. Just wait and see. Give it time.

- His play over the last year was bad. Is he dropping off? Is he losing focus?

Glass half full, I guess. At end of the day, it's very simple. He is the highest paid player in the NHL. With that comes expectations. New line mates or not. The highest paid player should make OTHER players better. Kane got Panarin a Calder. Kane turned a journeyman center into a legit 2C center. The 2nd line had 11 points last night. Kane helped his linemates get many of those points.

I expect Toews to make OTHERS better, not rely on others to make his numbers come.

If he was a $5-6M player, these comments wouldn't be prevalent. 58 points is not the production expected from the highest paid player in the league.

Remember, the fact the he is making $10.5M is a good part of the reason the Hawks in are cap hell. The fact that he (and Kane) are making $10.5M is the reason guys like Saad and Oduya and others aren't on this team. If you're going to mortgage the team with that cap hit from two players, you'd better get the production. 58 points last year isn't.

But you guys are right. It's only 4 games and we should be patient. It all comes down to which Toews you think we'll see. The guy who had 68 points in 76 games in 2013 or the guy who had 58 points through 80 in 2015. I realize it was 28 goals in both seasons, but let's not kid ourselves. The 28 goals last season were padded with, what 6-8 3:3 goals? I know those goals count just the same, but those goals are much easier to come by versus the 5:5 goals that we need/expect.

I'm not expecting 75 points, although that would be great. I don't have a clue. Was just a hypothetical. But I'm not going to pass judgement on him based upon a 4 game sample size. Thats all. Just doesn't make sense to me. I'll patiently wait, and watch for him to pick it up. Like I said, if he's sitting at 10 points 40 games in, then I'll be concerned. But for now, 4 games in, I'm not overly concerned about him, yet.

 

[CallMeShaft]

Toews is the highest paid player because at the time of his (and Kane's) new contract(s), the Canadian dollar was doing well and the salary cap seemed to be on a healthy trajectory.

Unfortunately, the value of the Canadian dollar started to drop considerably just after the signing.

If the contract was signed at a different time, he (and Kane) would likely not be making the type of money that they are. It's unfortunate, but at the same time, I'd rather have the two of them than only have one (or worse, neither of them).

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I'm particularly concerned about the 9 penalty minutes

Why? He had a fight. So he's got 2 minors in 4 games. That's in line with his career numbers.

 

[piteus]

Toews is the highest paid player because at the time of his (and Kane's) new contract(s), the Canadian dollar was doing well and the salary cap seemed to be on a healthy trajectory.

Unfortunately, the value of the Canadian dollar started to drop considerably just after the signing.

If the contract was signed at a different time, he (and Kane) would likely not be making the type of money that they are. It's unfortunate, but at the same time, I'd rather have the two of them than only have one (or worse, neither of them).

I have such a problem with how the NHL calculates the salary cap. They expect NHL teams to be currency speculators without any tools to hedge. On Wall Street, we destroy companies that play outside of their core competency. If an airline company speculates on jet oil prices, they are heavily criticized and discounted. It's just bad business.

So basically, the Hawks get screwed for the movement of the Canadian Dollar which has nothing to do with hockey. smh.

 

[JaegerDice]

I have such a problem with how the NHL calculates the salary cap. They expect NHL teams to be currency speculators without any tools to hedge. On Wall Street, we destroy any company plays outside their core competency. If an airline company speculates on oil prices, they are heavily criticized. It's just bad business.

So basically, the Hawks get screwed for the movement of the Canadian Dollar which has nothing to do with hockey.

The cap is calculated by revenue. How else would you prefer to calculate it?

There's nothing the NHL can do about the exchange rate. The only way to mitigate the impact of the CDN dollar is to generate more revenue south of the 49th parallel.

 

[BobbyJet]

I have such a problem with how the NHL calculates the salary cap. They expect NHL teams to be currency speculators without any tools to hedge. On Wall Street, we destroy companies that play outside of their core competency. If an airline company speculates on jet oil prices, they are heavily criticized and discounted. It's just bad business.

So basically, the Hawks get screwed for the movement of the Canadian Dollar which has nothing to do with hockey. smh.

Technically yes, but it was Stan's "speculation" that came up with those inflated salary numbers. He was the one who broke the rules of good business practice.

 

[Central PA Hawk Fan]

Cmon man. The Hawks crapped away a 4 goal lead in a 10 minute span. That's gonna get people's hackles up. As it should.

But they were able to ratchet it down and never lost the lead. In fact, they came back and won the actual game. Things happen, I don't think Crawford has been playing particularly well, but he'll turn it around. Its way to early to panic about anything.

 

[LordKOTL]

2015 says hello

21st in shots against in 2015. 2nd in Goals against and a Jennings for Crawford.

The D wasn't good in 2015.

 

[JaegerDice]

But they were able to ratchet it down and never lost the lead. In fact, they came back and won the actual game. Things happen, I don't think Crawford has been playing particularly well, but he'll turn it around. Its way to early to panic about anything.

Crawford allowed his first two 5v5 goals in 3 games last night. His difficulties are being overblown. A PK that made literally any effort to pressure the points OR clear out traffic (option A is better but you have to do at least one of those two), would make all the difference.

 

[Central PA Hawk Fan]

Technically yes, but it was Stan's "speculation" that came up with those inflated salary numbers. He was the one who broke the rules of good business practice.

This organization isn't going to nickel and dime its players, especially its two faces of the franchise. Either come to terms with that fact or ***** about it every chance you get on message boards, but after the history of this organization with Dollar Bill, the Blackhawks go out of their way to accommodate players wants and needs. Is there going to be instances were you could have saved some $ on these deals? Yeah, but the organization doesn't think those savings are worth playing hardball with its stars, and I don't blame them.