Post-Game Talk: Game 4 Capitals vs Islanders 7:30 PM (continued...)

[mrwarden]

That rule, as written, literally includes every single contact between two players.

 

[txpd]

here's the video from the NHL on charging. see the example of Girardi running over mike green. they also use ovechkin jumping into a hit.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=995&id=464949

 

[artilector]

NHL is utterly confused on these hits.

To what extent is it a hit to the head if the arms are down, player is taller, and target is hunched?
Is it ok to jump on the follow-through?
Is it ok to hit after targeting a player at high speed when .X seconds have passed after the player got rid of the puck?
How much effect a player getting hurt has on determining the legality of the hit?

I don't think the NHL has a clear policy, they just end up following the Supreme Court motto "I know it when I see it". The rest of us can discuss it 'till we are blue in the face.

All I can say is that I would want these types of hits to be legal. I think hitting with the shoulder should always be legal (except for hits to the back or leaving feet prior to the hit, of course). Otherwise, the gray areas cause constant back-n-forth whining..

 

[OVs Gold Chain*]

Purely hypothetical but what would happen if Wilson laid a huge clean check on Tavares next game? Does either team make it to r2 with enough players to field a roster? Does a herd of NYI fans show up and key the sides of the metro? Good lord would the fallout be amazing to watch.

 

[Blades of Steel]

Key the sides of the metro

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

That rule, as written, literally includes every single contact between two players.

They've definitely written in a comprehensive CYA clause.

 

[g00n]

Jones and Milbury praising Wilson for a gamechanging penalty in contrast to the useless ones the Pens have been taking in the NYR series. Saying you take the big momentum swingers like Wilson's hit every time as long as they're 2min and not 5.

 

[Corby78]

Wilson violently checked an opponent as a result of distance traveled. Therefor it's a charge. How anyone can say otherwise is truly astounding.




I literally said that two minutes was the appropriate penalty.

You realize the rule describes checking in general. Guys skate all the way from the redline and check the defensman when they dump n chase. Wilson skated from the corner to behind the net.

 

[Hivemind]

You can try and blame the writing of the rule as much as you want, but what Wilson did clearly violated that rule. There's no grounds to say that the minor penalty wasn't warranted. Citing examples of why he didn't face further discipline (such as the video explaining the differences between minor penalty charges and charges that earn suspensions) doesn't mean that he's innocent of the minor penalty. This is indeed similar to Wilson's hit on Schenn last year. Not "dirty" or headhunting, but rather a hit that crossed the line into charging and warranted a penalty but not supplemental discipline.

 

[g00n]

If Wilson delivers that hit at that speed from that distance to Boychuk there is no penalty because 6'2" JB doesn't crumple like that. The penalty was because big strong guy leveled shorter smaller guy.

Is it going to be illegal to hit smaller players? How about a team full of Marty St.Louis size skaters that nobody's allowed to check?

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

You can try and blame the writing of the rule as much as you want, but what Wilson did clearly violated that rule. There's no grounds to say that the minor penalty wasn't warranted. Citing examples of why he didn't face further discipline (such as the video explaining the differences between minor penalty charges and charges that earn suspensions) doesn't mean that he's innocent of the minor penalty. This is indeed similar to Wilson's hit on Schenn last year. Not "dirty" or headhunting, but rather a hit that crossed the line into charging and warranted a penalty but not supplemental discipline.

So hard hits are against the rule is, in essence, what you're saying. Anything that looks bad will be called a penalty.

 

[Hivemind]

So hard hits are against the rule is, in essence, what you're saying. Anything that looks bad will be called a penalty.

Violent checks that are the result of distance traveled are, per the rule, charging. If the fact that checks that look particularly bad in real time are more likely to draw calls than other checks is surprising to you, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[g00n]

Violent checks that are the result of distance traveled are, per the rule, charging. If the fact that checks that look particularly bad in real time are more likely to draw calls than other checks is surprising to you, I don't know what to tell you.

The rule is very, very broad. Is the illegal distance traveled defined?

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Violent checks that are the result of distance traveled are, per the rule, charging. If the fact that checks that look particularly bad in real time are more likely to draw calls than other checks is surprising to you, I don't know what to tell you.

He was gliding. Literally, gliding. He took exactly 1 stride from the blueline. One. There is no argument for distance traveled.

A hit that looks bad does not mean it's a penalty. It's more likely to be called, just as it is in the NFL, but that doesn't mean it's the right call.

 

[Corby78]

Violent checks that are the result of distance traveled are, per the rule, charging. If the fact that checks that look particularly bad in real time are more likely to draw calls than other checks is surprising to you, I don't know what to tell you.

The rule is written with zero parameters so that it can be interpreted by the ref. Basically anything he deems over the line. The reason that hit was over the line was because it was a hard hit vs a smaller player not ready for it. He didn't travel that far compared to many hits that happen each game.

In fact many refs that I know (granted they aren't NHL level) use strides not distance to make their judgement. aka 5 hard strides without letting up or something of that nature.

 

[Maruk moustache]

NHL is utterly confused on these hits.

To what extent is it a hit to the head if the arms are down, player is taller, and target is hunched?
Is it ok to jump on the follow-through?
Is it ok to hit after targeting a player at high speed when .X seconds have passed after the player got rid of the puck?
How much effect a player getting hurt has on determining the legality of the hit?

I don't think the NHL has a clear policy, they just end up following the Supreme Court motto "I know it when I see it". The rest of us can discuss it 'till we are blue in the face.

All I can say is that I would want these types of hits to be legal. I think hitting with the shoulder should always be legal (except for hits to the back or leaving feet prior to the hit, of course). Otherwise, the gray areas cause constant back-n-forth whining..

I think I almost agree, and the charging rule is kind of difficult to grapple with unless you do limit it to leaving the feet, without like arming refs with speedometers or something crazy like that.

But a rule against a hit to the head with the shoulder, where the head is the principal point of contact, seems reasonable. What I really think is they could make the rule real clear by just tossing out the stuff about the player putting himself in a vulnerable position and all the other exceptions that the ref has to "consider" and just kind of make it like the high-sticking rule and say you're responsible for your own shoulder when it comes to hitting other players' heads.

I know that'd give shorter players an edge, and I'm OK with shorter players getting an edge. They tend to have the natural disadvantage of short stature anyway and I don't think a rule that protects them more is really going to make a huge difference. I don't think it's going to result in a league full of GMs valuing short stature very highly, or a league full of very short people flying around or anything.

Heads are important. Probably worth protecting, even from shoulders, even more than faces are from high sticks. If you could somehow devise a way to eliminate the concussion factor, you'd make for a better game overall. More parents would permit more kids to start in the first place. More players would have longer careers.

I guess along those lines you'd have to consider doing something about cutting down on fighting too, since a punch to the head, or getting knocked down by a punch, can certainly cause a concussion. I can't believe that one of the rationales for a more permissive attitude re fighting, i.e. to channel aggression of players who might otherwise be tempted to use their sticks as weapons, isn't substantially less powerful nowadays, y'know, with how brittle the sticks seem nowadays.

I probably wouldn't be a very popular rules writer, I guess, at least at first.

 

[Backstrom #19]

Three penalties already called in the first 11 minutes of the Rags-Pens game.

Edit - Wrong thread, whatever.

 

[RandyHolt]

Guys that are at risk for concussions, or otherwise need protection, should consider starting to get their stick up.

Raise your stick, and let the opponent skate into it. Like Dale would, the arm and glove extended, stick blade up. Glove right in the face. Stick just happens to scrape up against the face in the inevitable scrum. Maybe even leave a mark.Take a 2 for cross checking right in the crest. Old School.

I heard Espo or someone else on NHL Satelite radio mention it. I almost called into the show today to complain about buttercup and his little mule kicks and get it on the radar of the league.

Of course getting the stick up it is nothing original, but it is certainly absent in the modern NHL. I am sure its highly illegal.

It's not just frowned upon

 

[artilector]

I think I almost agree, and the charging rule is kind of difficult to grapple with unless you do limit it to leaving the feet, without like arming refs with speedometers or something crazy like that.

But a rule against a hit to the head with the shoulder, where the head is the principal point of contact, seems reasonable. What I really think is they could make the rule real clear by just tossing out the stuff about the player putting himself in a vulnerable position and all the other exceptions that the ref has to "consider" and just kind of make it like the high-sticking rule and say you're responsible for your own shoulder when it comes to hitting other players' heads.

I know that'd give shorter players an edge, and I'm OK with shorter players getting an edge. They tend to have the natural disadvantage of short stature anyway and I don't think a rule that protects them more is really going to make a huge difference. I don't think it's going to result in a league full of GMs valuing short stature very highly, or a league full of very short people flying around or anything.

Heads are important. Probably worth protecting, even from shoulders, even more than faces are from high sticks. If you could somehow devise a way to eliminate the concussion factor, you'd make for a better game overall. More parents would permit more kids to start in the first place. More players would have longer careers.

I guess along those lines you'd have to consider doing something about cutting down on fighting too, since a punch to the head, or getting knocked down by a punch, can certainly cause a concussion. I can't believe that one of the rationales for a more permissive attitude re fighting, i.e. to channel aggression of players who might otherwise be tempted to use their sticks as weapons, isn't substantially less powerful nowadays, y'know, with how brittle the sticks seem nowadays.

I probably wouldn't be a very popular rules writer, I guess, at least at first.

It's certainly a valid opinion.

I guess I just can't reconcile myself with an NHL game in which all a guy has to do is hunch over to become "off-limits" to hitters, or where a bigger guy simply cant deliver any hits to a smaller guy from the front because his shoulder is at head level.

NHL has become too boring already. Without room for skilled plays, without leeway for big hits, with goalies posting .950 save percentage, who is going to watch general league play?

 

[Maruk moustache]

It's certainly a valid opinion.

I guess I just can't reconcile myself with an NHL game in which all a guy has to do is hunch over to become "off-limits" to hitters, or where a bigger guy simply cant deliver any hits to a smaller guy from the front because his shoulder is at head level.

NHL has become too boring already. Without room for skilled plays, without leeway for big hits, with goalies posting .950 save percentage, who is going to watch general league play?

I like big hits generally, and room for skilled plays, and dislike the high save percentages. The nets used to look so huge to me when I started watching in the 1970s.

Anyway, I'm not saying I know the way or anything. I'm still trying to work it all out in my head. I think the NHL is too. I think the NHL might well be heading towards what I was talking about re making the hit-to-the-head rule one that is like the high-sticking rule where the player is responsible for even his own shoulder when it comes to hits to the head, and, y'know, they could even be doing it kind of behind the scenes via "guidance" that they sort of secretly send to the refs. Because the hit-to-the-head rule as written does seem to allow for a lot of discretion re to what degree the ref really has to "consider" the vulnerable position the player puts himself in and all that jazz. If there's a lot of room for discretion, there's also a lot of room for the NHL to issue guidelines that they haven't (yet) formally stuck into the rulebook. That word "consider" in the hit-to-the-head rule is pretty interesting to me.

 

[Kukaruchku]

You can try and blame the writing of the rule as much as you want, but what Wilson did clearly violated that rule. There's no grounds to say that the minor penalty wasn't warranted. Citing examples of why he didn't face further discipline (such as the video explaining the differences between minor penalty charges and charges that earn suspensions) doesn't mean that he's innocent of the minor penalty. This is indeed similar to Wilson's hit on Schenn last year. Not "dirty" or headhunting, but rather a hit that crossed the line into charging and warranted a penalty but not supplemental discipline.

Growing up in small town Saskatchewan, we'd consider that an excellent hit. What are you talking about???? It's the only way that our pride and joy Kevin Kaminski knew how to hit. Visnovski(sic) with his head down. Better than a Christmas present.

 

[Bladerunner]

It's certainly a valid opinion.

I guess I just can't reconcile myself with an NHL game in which all a guy has to do is hunch over to become "off-limits" to hitters, or where a bigger guy simply cant deliver any hits to a smaller guy from the front because his shoulder is at head level.

NHL has become too boring already. Without room for skilled plays, without leeway for big hits, with goalies posting .950 save percentage, who is going to watch general league play?

^^^ This.

Scoring down... fighting/big hits discouraged and down.

What's left? Lots of neutral zone, clog the middle play

 

[RandyHolt]

Somebody got internet!

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

As was said before, if we use "letter of the rule" as a standard for charging penalties, almost every hit is charging, particular those by forecheckers.

That's why charging isn't called by the letter of the rule, and other factors are keyed on, particularly whether a player is striding into the hit, whether he launches into it, and whether he straight-lines across the ice targeting a guy.

Wilson was gliding, did not launch, and changed direction around the corner. So he ticked none of the boxes. Not a legitimate penalty, given usual standards

 

[marcel snapshot]

Guys that are at risk for concussions, or otherwise need protection, should consider starting to get their stick up.

Raise your stick, and let the opponent skate into it. Like Dale would, the arm and glove extended, stick blade up. Glove right in the face. Stick just happens to scrape up against the face in the inevitable scrum. Maybe even leave a mark.Take a 2 for cross checking right in the crest. Old School.

Eddie Olcyzk - that's what they tell you in the old days. Wanna protect yourself get your stick up. Somebody takes a run at ya, they're gonna have to eat it.