GDT: Game 30: Coyotes @ Maple Leafs - Toronto Sports Apperication Thread

[kihekah19*]

Not as simple as Babs=good and Tip=bad.

So much simpler though!

 

[_Del_]

Toronto has 29 points in 29 games. Board posters praise their youth and their "turn around"/potential playoff season.

Coyotes have 27 points in 30 games and posters here have constant Tip criticism and believe our youth are fu**ed, all the while coyotes are now 5 points out of a playoff spot.

Not as simple as Babs=good and Tip=bad.

Well, yet again, Toronto looked like a better club last night, and I'm really less concerned about our record than I am the handling of what should be our core going forward.
I also think comparing the treatment of two waiver pick ups in Corrado and Holland (essentially a waiver guy at this point) to some of the top prospects in the NHL is a bit disingenuous.

 

[kihekah19*]

A constant PR parade gets insulting. Funny enough, the away broadcasters often demonstrate more knowledge of the Coyotes goings-on and are more specific in their praise than the home crew. Interviewers often ask tough but still fair questions to players and coaches.

FSAZ is like a distortion bubble, more people need to get out of it.

While the PR parade can be insulting, you've got to remember there is no large loyal following. Totally agree regarding away broadcasts, but that's just not the market we're in. The decision has obviously been made to harp on positive talking points.

 

[kihekah19*]

Nash is repetitive and not the most insightful.

Yep, dumbing it down for the audience.

 

[BigJCaRoach]

Toronto looked like a better club last night

At times, sure. I don't think that's fact. That's the ebb and flow of the game. Because they had more shots? Because Matthews and Marner? Because we won, we weren't necessarily better either. We got 2 points, they got 1. (Thanks smitty)

I just don't think you can say, definitively, we would be in a better situation with a different coach other than Tippet.

I don't believe, definitively, that our youth would be better off with somebody other than tippet at the helm. I don't think it is as negative a situation as you believe it to be. Dvorak isn't another Gilbert Brule until he shows he is. He isn't a Peter Mueller or Kyle Turris until he shows he is.

Just looking around the league, (Babs in Toronto with Holland and Corrado, Yakupov in Edm and now St. Louis) every team has their dramas and criticisms and players being "mistreated." Coaching criticisms, etc.

Can't we enjoy a win? Give credit and compliment when due?

Do you believe the Detroit and Toronto versions of this Coyotes team was the same that showed up (or didn't) in Pittsburgh? The east coast trip to start the year? They've played 30 of 82. Dvo's career isnt torpedoed yet.

 

[_Del_]

My main reason for lack of enthusiasm for our wins and loser points is that, yes, the same team typically plays the same game with the exception of the quality of our goaltending as they do in the losses. We spend the entire game in our zone, can't establish any sustained pressure in the offensive zone, and routinely hand away possession of the puck because it's better to "make them go 200 feet" than it is to risk a turnover by trying to generate offense using the middle of the ice. It hasn't worked for the past five years, and it isn't working now. We've changed every ingredient in the pie except for coaching staff, and it still comes out the same.
And amusingly, the same people saying "Tippett will adapt with more skill. He only coached that way because he had to. You'll see next year" have now switched to saying that the problem now is we need to dump the puck even more to get the transition game going and allow zone entries.
Play the kids. Take our lumps. Let them adjust to the game without the mind-f### of wondering if each shift might be their last so that we can get them some experience at this level. Ironically enough, I'd like so see that same "Be positive" and "Be patient" advice given to the people behind the bench.

 

[strizzy16]

Yep, dumbing it down for the audience.

I mean I agree, they are trying to keep it simple for the more casual fans (aka, not HF Board posters) that tune in from the valley. But -- do you really think, that if 1. Coyotes had more knowledgeable fans in AZ or 2. McConnell and Nash did a broadcast on more of a national stage, that they'd "take it to the next level" and not give a dumbed-down call? I'd say no. They're one-trick ponies.

Interesting enough.... There was an article from mynhlrumors.com blog that came across my Twitter feed this morning about another player on the Leafs who is in the same boat as Holland was and commented about Babcock not playing people he doesn't like.

Ah..... Found it.

http://mynhltraderumors.com/toronto-maple-leafs-news-frank-corrado-comments-on-situation-mike-babcock-responds/2016/12/16/

Interesting indeed. While probably a better team right now, Leafs have more dysfunction purely due to the market... and, although clearly I think we'd all prefer Babcock to Tipp, but there are still downsides to Babcock as coach. It's easy to compare Tipp vs Babs handling of player development, but both have faults

If you ever get the chance to watch away broadcasts, you'll see the far more professional atmosphere that surrounds most every team that isn't the Coyotes. It's not a problem unique to the Coyotes, but the valley in general lacks any sort of accountability. Broadcasts are usually filled with lapdogs rather than independent personalities.

Totally agree. That said, there are plenty of teams that are similar to the announcers in AZ. I notice this with the feeds that we get here in atlanta-- they broadcast Predators games and Hurricanes games here. Predators are pretty unprofessional. I hate when the announcers in your market root SO hard for the team that they cover. They are supposed to be journalists. In general the Canadian-team announcers are a pleasure to listen to. I think teams with more storied franchises are able to be a bit more objective. Sunbelt teams, in general, have announcers that root REALLY hard for the home team. Fox Sports is generally the most guilty. the Sharks announcers are CSN i think but they do the same thing-- they contrast to the Blackhawks (also CSN I believe) who are pretty balanced (probably because Olzyck is used to doing national broadcasts).

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Play the kids. Take our lumps.

Who do you think minutes should be reduced in order to play every young player at minutes that satisfy you?

Doan? That ones fair.

But other than that I don't really see how you can justify a huge change in ice time. A couple minutes less for one guy a couple more for another? Sure, but that isn't a drastic change.

 

[_Del_]

Doan would be a good start. We could give them PP time, even. *gasp*

 

[Matias Maccete]

Not negatives - just some actual insight and analysis of the team, rather than bloviating, fawning, barely-disguised franchise PR masquerading as news.

I'd be happy with just 1/10th of the kind of coverage that the Cardinals, Diamondbacks, and Suns get on Arizona Sports. About all there is, though, is Doan and Tippett calling Burns and Gambo and Gambo talking about the team in 2000 and how awesome it was when Roenick broke his jaw.

Bloviating, high quality word, had to Google that one.

 

[cobra427]

Hardly anyone goes out to the games in support of the club.... let's fill the heads of the few who watch/listen with negatives.

That'll help

Phoenix is a little bit different market as many people moves here for a positive change in their lives. Al McCoy has been the Suns announcer forever and he is pretty positive. Viewers would get tired of listening to announcers blast players or the coach on a broadcast. Fans want to see a team win and feel good about the product.

 

[cobra427]

Who do you think minutes should be reduced in order to play every young player at minutes that satisfy you?

Doan? That ones fair.

But other than that I don't really see how you can justify a huge change in ice time. A couple minutes less for one guy a couple more for another? Sure, but that isn't a drastic change.

Reading the TOI after the fact and thinking it should have been different, just because a player is young or has potential, is not how you coach an NHL team. It just doesn't work that way. It is situational, PK/PP/line combos/match up's, to name a few.

 

[hbk]

Peter Holland on powerplay today on NHL network radio,

Said some things regarding Tip and his system.

I have to find and share.

Edit: I can't locate, he basically said tippet lets players play their game and his system is NOT always in the their head all the time while on the ice. Players can play their game within his system.

Hilarious when juxtaposed to Babcock and how ppl speak of Babcock with reverence and Toronto's season and youth.

Can anyone find the audio or transcribed?

I caught it.

Patrick O'Sullivan also chimed in with extreme praise for Tippett. Praised him as a coach who takes time to explain to all players with examples on how to be better and how to get more playing time.

Said Tippett has been using his own analytics for over 20 years as well.

 

[Mosby]

I quite like Holland's game. Keeps it simple and he upgrades our center ice, ever so slightly. Obviously we still need a lot of work there (it's ridiculous to see Doan and Vrbata regularly taking faceoffs), but it's a decent start, particularly because it costs us zero.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Reading the TOI after the fact and thinking it should have been different, just because a player is young or has potential, is not how you coach an NHL team. It just doesn't work that way. It is situational, PK/PP/line combos/match up's, to name a few.

Oh yeah for sure. That's why when I look at TOI I mostly just look at avg's for the season. Cause in one game, one player could be having a good night, or a bad one. Or we might be trying to get a certain match up.

When I look at TOI for the season so far, the only drastic change I'd make is swapping Crouse with Doan. I think both play a similar style and that Crouse is better. I'd like him to start getting some of Doans minutes. But Doan is Mr. Coyote so it's not really that big of deal for me. And Doan did have a pretty good game last night so maybe he's gonna get better.

 

[Mosby]

Peter Holland on powerplay today on NHL network radio,

Said some things regarding Tip and his system.

I have to find and share.

Edit: I can't locate, he basically said tippet lets players play their game and his system is NOT always in the their head all the time while on the ice. Players can play their game within his system.

Hilarious when juxtaposed to Babcock and how ppl speak of Babcock with reverence and Toronto's season and youth.

Can anyone find the audio or transcribed?

https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmnhl/peterholland13-was-on-the-power-play-w-laughlinsxm-realposullivan

 

[kihekah19*]

I mean I agree, they are trying to keep it simple for the more casual fans (aka, not HF Board posters) that tune in from the valley. But -- do you really think, that if 1. Coyotes had more knowledgeable fans in AZ or 2. McConnell and Nash did a broadcast on more of a national stage, that they'd "take it to the next level" and not give a dumbed-down call?

I think with more support, hence dollars they would get a better crew.

We had Strades and Panger - personally they all drive me nuts if you listen more than say a dozen times.

 

[KG]

As one of the anti Tippet crew I hAve to say that's suprising. But not really supported by ice time...

 

[hbk]

As one of the anti Tippet crew I hAve to say that's suprising. But not really supported by ice time...

I'm curious if the ice time is broken down by offensive zone starts versus defensive zone.

 

[Jakey53]

I caught it.

Patrick O'Sullivan also chimed in with extreme praise for Tippett. Praised him as a coach who takes time to explain to all players with examples on how to be better and how to get more playing time.

Said Tippett has been using his own analytics for over 20 years as well.

Interesting, but not surprising.

I quite like Holland's game. Keeps it simple and he upgrades our center ice, ever so slightly. Obviously we still need a lot of work there (it's ridiculous to see Doan and Vrbata regularly taking faceoffs), but it's a decent start, particularly because it costs us zero.

I agree. We miss Richardson more than we thought. Our possession time would be much better if we could win a draw.

Oh yeah for sure. That's why when I look at TOI I mostly just look at avg's for the season. Cause in one game, one player could be having a good night, or a bad one. Or we might be trying to get a certain match up.

When I look at TOI for the season so far, the only drastic change I'd make is swapping Crouse with Doan. I think both play a similar style and that Crouse is better. I'd like him to start getting some of Doans minutes. But Doan is Mr. Coyote so it's not really that big of deal for me. And Doan did have a pretty good game last night so maybe he's gonna get better.

But don't forget they play opposite sides, and it also depends how their line is doing, not just the player. Probably be Doan's last year, and I don't think he is hurting the team with his play. Love to see Fischer get called up.

I think with more support, hence dollars they would get a better crew.

We had Strades and Panger - personally they all drive me nuts if you listen more than say a dozen times.

I agree. I really got tired of Panger, but I could listen to Strades all day long.

 

[ck26]

ck, when did you start wanting Tippett to get fired? I remember not too long ago you were one of the rational pro Tippett people who defended him logic and facts.

It's gotten even more toxic than the last few years. At the very least we all seem to agree Deangelo and Chychrun are awesome.

I don't like the implication that being pissed at Tipp and being rational and logical are mutually exclusive, but maybe I'm reading something in your tone that isn't there.

I started the day we put in two waiver claims and immediately gave the replacement level veterans more ice time than the kids who have been here for 4 months / two years.

It defies logic that Peter ****ing Holland and I already forgot Jooris's first name can get to town, practice with the team once and please Tipp more than Anthony Duclair and Chris Dvorak. It's simply impossible. The Leafs are awful and they gave away Peter Holland, so let's insert him ahead of Chris Dvorak. If Tipp is happier with Holland than Duclair, then he's either asking the wrong things of them or he's coaching drunk or something.

These last two wins were fun or whatever, but they're undermining the rebuild. Let's go re-sign Tim Kennedy and David Schlemko and really work hard on both crushing our future and getting that 12OA pick. Peter Holland is Tim Kennedy. Replacement level player. You sometimes need those guys because there are 18 skaters on a team, but there's no reason why 1 of last year's London Knights 1st liner is skating 20 mins/night and the other is skating 9.

 

[_Del_]

 

[RemoAZ]

Outstanding post CK. That's the difference in coaching to develop talent good enough to win a cup vs just wanting to win today. "The NHL is not a development league". This is woven into the fabric of his soul and our genius owners gave him the keys to the rebuild for another half decade.

 

[Matias Maccete]

I don't like the implication that being pissed at Tipp and being rational and logical are mutually exclusive, but maybe I'm reading something in your tone that isn't there.

I started the day we put in two waiver claims and immediately gave the replacement level veterans more ice time than the kids who have been here for 4 months / two years.

It defies logic that Peter ****ing Holland and I already forgot Jooris's first name can get to town, practice with the team once and please Tipp more than Anthony Duclair and Chris Dvorak. It's simply impossible. The Leafs are awful and they gave away Peter Holland, so let's insert him ahead of Chris Dvorak. If Tipp is happier with Holland than Duclair, then he's either asking the wrong things of them or he's coaching drunk or something.

These last two wins were fun or whatever, but they're undermining the rebuild. Let's go re-sign Tim Kennedy and David Schlemko and really work hard on both crushing our future and getting that 12OA pick. Peter Holland is Tim Kennedy. Replacement level player. You sometimes need those guys because there are 18 skaters on a team, but there's no reason why 1 of last year's London Knights 1st liner is skating 20 mins/night and the other is skating 9.

I wasn't trying to imply they're mutually exclusive, just saying you were one of the "pro Tippett" crowd that debated with facts and logic instead of bumper sticker slogans and ridiculous claims. There's not too many posters of that ilk who aren't on the fire Tippett bandwagon left now. Still a handful, but not nearly as many as this time last year.

You're still stating your case with logic and facts, and just for the record I've been on team fire Tippett for a while(I changed my handle this year after my man crush on Chychrun went nuclear, I was Mantis TobogganM.D.4), I wasn't trying to say being pissed at Tippett makes one lose rationality or logical thought. I also agree with everything in your post.

 

[TheLegend]

Just want to drop two cents into this lively discussion that had Brad Richardson not broken his leg we probably wouldn't have grabbed Holland and/or Jooris.

Sometimes moves are made because of a necessity we don't see.

That said.... I'd still like to see Martinook back on the wing. He's still playing a C despite Holland coming in.