GDT: Game #3 | Detroit Red Wings @ Boston Bruins | 7:00 PM EST | FS-D

[ArGarBarGar]

“Normally, I don’t change a winning lineup,’’ Babcock said.” I was just looking for more. I didn’t get it.’’

What are you getting from Cleary that you aren't getting from Tatar?

 

[InjuredChoker]

What's the status with my boy Tootoo? Is he injured or just a healthy scratch.

Has minor shoulder injury, has been skating. Should be healthy soon.

 

[crashman]

I have no idea what to say except it seems he is setting Tatar up to fail.

In Babcocks mind:

Cleary and Tatar are both good wingers but Cleary has more experience so ill play him.
Wait... maybe Tatar is better? Well I'll just play him agains the Best team in the East. And when the whole team gets outplayed... well back to Cleary.


I think it is time for us HFBoard to realize a simple truth here:

They Believe Bertuzzi/Sammy/Cleary are good players. 2nd-3rd line players probably. While Nyquist and Tatar are unproven guys. Holland will not lose Nyq or Tatar for free. But I do not think Holland is going to Babcock and saying... "hey man, Tatar needs ice time, he is better than everyone in the bottom 6".

We have to suck up the fact that the CURRENT belief is B/S/Cleary all are looked at as being effective players.

Hopefully our 3rd line continues to crap bricks while the 1st and 2nd line do well enough to win us games.

Eventually Nyq and Tatar will be put there. But its totally possible that it wont be for any long stretch this season

I think they are effective players, just not in their given roles ATM. All three are good top 6 plugs, and all three players can be used in almost any situation between the 3 of them, but only on a scoring line with good play-makers like Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Filppula. Having Cleary, Bert and Sammy filling out the 3rd and 4th lines is just bad IMO. You need speed and fore-checking in your bottom 6, Bert really doesn't provide that at this stage of his career, and Sammy/Cleary's legs just don't allow them to be the good 2-way forwards that they once were.

The problem is compounded because we have a few kids that are absolutely NHL ready and there's just not enough ice-time (or roster/salary room) to go around. Ken Holland wants to please his coach, the players, and the fans but his loyalty and complacency is getting in the way. At some point they just need to decide what's right for the team going forward.

I supported them bringing Cleary back on the contract that he signed (even though I did lose respect for him because of how he handled the situation), but I'm more than willing to admit that I may be wrong. He really might be done like a lot of you guys have suggested because he hasn't shown ANYTHING though the preseason and first 3 games.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

I think they are effective players, just not in their given roles ATM. All three are good top 6 plugs, and all three players can be used in almost any situation between the 3 of them, but only on a scoring line with good play-makers like Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Filppula. Having Cleary, Bert and Sammy filling out the 3rd and 4th lines is just bad IMO. You need speed and fore-checking in your bottom 6, Bert really doesn't provide that at this stage of his career, and Sammy/Cleary's legs just don't allow them to be the good 2-way forwards that they once were.

The problem is compounded because we have a few kids that are absolutely NHL ready and there's just not enough ice-time (or roster/salary room) to go around. Ken Holland wants to please his coach, the players, and the fans but his loyalty and complacency is getting in the way. At some point they just need to decide what's right for the team going forward.

I supported them bringing Cleary back on the contract that he signed (even though I did lose respect for him because of how he handled the situation), but I'm more than willing to admit that I may be wrong. He really might be done like a lot of you guys have suggested because he hasn't shown ANYTHING though the preseason and first 3 games.

I agree with Bert being a good top-six plug if needed but unfortunately I think the days of Cleary and Sammy being the same is over.

Bert still has great hands, a very big body, and a solid shot (wicked backhand). Though he isn't a great skater either, he's still agile and has great balance. Bert is still a plus when it comes to puck possession because of his ability to hold on to the puck. He's also smarter than both Cleary and Sammy which is what you need when playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Bert can also contribute in the shootout.

Cleary is just way too worn out. His speed, agility and balance are straight up awful and make him effectively useless when not the net presence. He doesn't have the smarts like Bert since his calling card has always been his hard-work, so he's rarely in the right place at the right time. His awful skating, stone hands and bad board-play ruin puck possession for whatever line he's on, which effectively ruins the line (unless, of course, Datsyuk is out there).

Sammy is a wildcard. Some people may think he's a decent top-six plug but I just don't see it. He's OK in a lot of areas but nothing stands out when you watch him - negatively or positively. He'd be an alright third-line winger for a bubble team.

The thing I notice with the contenders around the league is they all have an identity in their bottom-six. They have players that bring a certain skill set to the bottom six and excel at it. They're put in a position to succeed. I mean look at some of the guys playing in the bottom-six for the top contenders:

Chicago: Andrew Shaw, Brandon Saad, Bryan Bickell
LA: Dustin Brown, Jarret Stoll, Kyle Clifford, Dan Carcillo
Boston: Chris Kelly, Gregory Campbell, Shawn Thornton, Daniel Paille

Detroit has nobody outside of maybe Bertuzzi (though I'd take Helm over most of these guys if he were healthy).

Imagine if we were to hypothetically assume Helm was healthy and were somehow were able to dump Cleary, Sammy AND Quincey, we could be SO MUCH BETTER its hard to even describe. We would have depth and variety and most importantly and identity.

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Franzen-Weiss-Alfredsson
Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar
Abdelkader-Helm-Tootoo

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Smith
Ouellet-Kindl

This lineup has a purpose. Every LINE has an identity. Every PLAYER has an identity. There's some present and potential chemistry.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Do you guys think Ouellett will be given a shot this season? Would be interested to see how he does in place of Quincey.

 

[SoupNazi]

Do you guys think Ouellett will be given a shot this season? Would be interested to see how he does in place of Quincey.

Honestly, with Jensen out, I'd expect both Ouellett and Almqvist to be given shots at the big club this year when injuries hit. Which one gets the shot first probably depends on who goes down.

For that matter, depending on how we do, maybe Kenny will trade Quincey at some point. I just don't see them bringing him back when the contract is up.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

You're a loser Babcock, seriously. He can't stand Tatar.

Losers don't win Stanley Cup championships and make 3 appearances in the Finals in their tenure.

 

[Bench]

For that matter, depending on how we do, maybe Kenny will trade Quincey at some point. I just don't see them bringing him back when the contract is up.

I don't, either. Unlike Cleary, I haven't heard management talking up Quincey in any particular area.

 

[SoupNazi]

I don't, either. Unlike Cleary, I haven't heard management talking up Quincey in any particular area.

Yeah, and with all of the d-men we have coming up, Quincey can be replaced easily. Although we say that about the forwards, I tend to believe management knows they've got an extremely deep blue line with guys like Ouellet coming up, and hopefully will start making room. That's why I think this is a HUGE year for Smith - if he doesn't perform, he probably won't be brought back after this contract.

 

[jaster]

Do you guys think Ouellett will be given a shot this season? Would be interested to see how he does in place of Quincey.

All depends on the extent of our injuries on the blueline throughout the year of course, but I do think the Wings feel Ouellet (and Almqvist) are ready for a taste, if needed.

 

[jaster]

Yeah, and with all of the d-men we have coming up, Quincey can be replaced easily. Although we say that about the forwards, I tend to believe management knows they've got an extremely deep blue line with guys like Ouellet coming up, and hopefully will start making room. That's why I think this is a HUGE year for Smith - if he doesn't perform, he probably won't be brought back after this contract.

Smith often frustrates me. Still. But I do think he has improved, and I believe he will continue to improve, so I hope the Wings give him a little more time.

Quincey can't leave town fast enough That's not entirely true, since he is currently useful, and had a nice playoff run, but his days are certainly numbered in Detroit.

I don't believe in Kindl as a PP QB. Really hoping Sproul develops quickly and ends up being able to man that point. With his shot, it would be great if he could run the 2nd PP unit in a year or two, and eventually be the #1 guy when Kronwall starts getting hip replacements.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Honestly, with Jensen out, I'd expect both Ouellett and Almqvist to be given shots at the big club this year when injuries hit. Which one gets the shot first probably depends on who goes down.

For that matter, depending on how we do, maybe Kenny will trade Quincey at some point. I just don't see them bringing him back when the contract is up.

Its too bad jensen got hurt, I think he would have been our first call up

 

[SoupNazi]

Its too bad jensen got hurt, I think he would have been our first call up

Agreed. I was excited to see him play this year, and almost expected him to have an outside shot at replacing Lashoff as our #7.

 

[SoupNazi]

Smith often frustrates me. Still. But I do think he has improved, and I believe he will continue to improve, so I hope the Wings give him a little more time.

Quincey can't leave town fast enough That's not entirely true, since he is currently useful, and had a nice playoff run, but his days are certainly numbered in Detroit.

Smith's problem, in my eyes, is that he shows flashes of brilliance and then on his next shift shows a flash of stupidity. It's extremely frustrating to me.

Quincey is the same way - he's often brilliant on one play and a complete bonehead on the next.

 

[Brick Top]

Smith often frustrates me. Still. But I do think he has improved, and I believe he will continue to improve, so I hope the Wings give him a little more time.

Quincey can't leave town fast enough That's not entirely true, since he is currently useful, and had a nice playoff run, but his days are certainly numbered in Detroit.

I'm with you on Smith improving- he's been better so far this year and I think he'll trend upward as the season goes on. He seems a little more solid in the defensive zone which was much needed. His lack of offensive awareness and playmaking still puzzles me though- posted in the GDT against Boston that I thought Smith would be making similar offensive plays to what Krug is doing for the B's. Hasn't happened yet, and this Wings team could use an offensive jumpstart from the blueline.

I'd love to see Q sent packing in a trade, but I don't see that happening with it just being Lashoff and AHL call-ups behind him on the depth chart. Unless Kenny moves him as part of a deal to get a veteran d-man in return, I think Q rides out this season in spectacularly mediocre fashion.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

You're a loser Babcock, seriously. He can't stand Tatar.

or he could be trying to motivate Tatar. It's funny how we're not mentioning that Tatar didn't bring much extra to the lineup that night. I mean, we all love what Tatar can do, but Babcock is trying to hold him accountable for what he did do. and against Boston, that wasn't much.

The way it's going to work for Tatar in Detroit is like this: he's going to get in on the 4th line, and he's going to have to have a good game. If he does that, then he'll get more and more time and it'll all snowball. But it starts in these little showcases, and he didn't do himself a favor there.

We might say "but Tatar isn't a 4th liner! He can't play there!" I think that's a little misguided, though, because Babcock isn't really looking for Tatar's offensive game in that role. He really wants to see if Tatar can handle NHL-level defensive play and play with enough tempo and effort, which is exactly what he'll be showing on the 4th line. Until Tatar gets that picture like Nyquist did, he's going to be in and out of the lineup.

Nyquist is the example that they want Tatar to follow. Develop a skating game, engage in battles (even if you'll lose), forecheck like a madman, and do your best to get back on D. That's the stuff that won Nyquist the chance to show his skill game on a regular basis (GR stuff aside, which is more of a Holland move than a Babcock one IMO).

 

[sepster]

Smith is going to go either one of two ways: either mentally something "clicks" and the game slows down that one, half a step to where everything he is trying to do becomes smooth and controlled, or his brain doesn't catch up to his physical ability and he is just a player that is frustrating and continually leaves you wanting more. I really don't see an in-between for him.

 

[Brick Top]

or he could be trying to motivate Tatar. It's funny how we're not mentioning that Tatar didn't bring much extra to the lineup that night. I mean, we all love what Tatar can do, but Babcock is trying to hold him accountable for what he did do. and against Boston, that wasn't much.

The way it's going to work for Tatar in Detroit is like this: he's going to get in on the 4th line, and he's going to have to have a good game. If he does that, then he'll get more and more time and it'll all snowball. But it starts in these little showcases, and he didn't do himself a favor there.

Holding players accountable is fine, and every pro athlete should expect that from a coach. It's Babcock's apparent selective accountability for guys on the team that is utterly maddening.

Totally agree that Tatar didn't show much in the Boston game, but then again very few other players did either.

This may be low-hanging fruit here, but if Babcock is all about accountability for what a guy did or did not do on the ice (and you see where this is headed, right?), then how the hell is Cleary not scratched for every game? The guy is bringing nothing positive out there, he drags down any line he's on, yet Babs rewards his lack of production with a lot of IT and even 2nd PP duty (which, in a related note, completely blows at this point in the season).

Seems to be a bit of hypocrisy on Babs' part if you're right. Tie goes to the vet; looks like he's grading some vets on one hell of a big curve.

 

[Flowah]

We all saw it coming a mile away. I find it hard to believe Babcock couldn't, for all his vaunted "genius" level coaching.

You ice an inferior lineup against 2 bad teams, barely win, take out one guy and insert Tatar in the 4th line with how much IT? Against the team unanimously seen as the best in the east? With a still dismal third line and terrible second unit PP?

Take Datsyuk off the first line and put him in a 4th line checking role with Emmerton and Miller and watch how much he does with 10 minutes a game. We saw how crippled Datsyuk was with Cleary+ Abby last year.

At this point, it's past stubborn and into delusional crazy man territory. So many of us saw it coming. Back to back game, good chance Tatar plays in one of them, didn't play against the Canes, will be in against the Bruins. We knew what would happen. He's a young kid playing in the wrong role with extremely limited minutes against a superior team. Yeah Tatar, why didn't you score a hattrick you bum?

So what, is Babcock just ****ing nuts or what? How can he not see that?

Nyquist is the example that they want Tatar to follow. Develop a skating game, engage in battles (even if you'll lose), forecheck like a madman, and do your best to get back on D. That's the stuff that won Nyquist the chance to show his skill game on a regular basis (GR stuff aside, which is more of a Holland move than a Babcock one IMO).

I haven't seen Nyquist doing that better than Tatar to such a degree to warrant what Babcock is doing. Nyquist is a bit faster which allows him to forecheck better. But other than that, Tatar battles and is a pretty damn good skater, especially compared to Cleary, Bert, Sammy.

Seems to be a bit of hypocrisy on Babs' part if you're right. Tie goes to the vet; looks like he's grading some vets on one hell of a big curve

I been saying it. Babcock has "lists." One is his **** list. The other is his it list.

If you're on the **** list, one mistake and you're riding the pine and you're going to have to wait the rotation for the next guy on the **** list to mess up.

If you're on the it list, you can produce nothing, be a minus player every night, miss assignments, and you'll still get your ice time, a few promotions to the top6, and some PP looks.

It's ridiculous.

 

[AD1066]

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Franzen-Weiss-Alfredsson
Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar
Abdelkader-Helm-Tootoo

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Smith
Ouellet-Kindl

This lineup has a purpose. Every LINE has an identity. Every PLAYER has an identity. There's some present and potential chemistry.

I'm exciting just looking at that lineup.

 

[Vladdy84]

We all saw it coming a mile away. I find it hard to believe Babcock couldn't, for all his vaunted "genius" level coaching.

You ice an inferior lineup against 2 bad teams, barely win, take out one guy and insert Tatar in the 4th line with how much IT? Against the team unanimously seen as the best in the east? With a still dismal third line and terrible second unit PP?

Take Datsyuk off the first line and put him in a 4th line checking role with Emmerton and Miller and watch how much he does with 10 minutes a game. We saw how crippled Datsyuk was with Cleary+ Abby last year.

At this point, it's past stubborn and into delusional crazy man territory. So many of us saw it coming. Back to back game, good chance Tatar plays in one of them, didn't play against the Canes, will be in against the Bruins. We knew what would happen. He's a young kid playing in the wrong role with extremely limited minutes against a superior team. Yeah Tatar, why didn't you score a hattrick you bum?

So what, is Babcock just ****ing nuts or what? How can he not see that?


I haven't seen Nyquist doing that better than Tatar to such a degree to warrant what Babcock is doing. Nyquist is a bit faster which allows him to forecheck better. But other than that, Tatar battles and is a pretty damn good skater, especially compared to Cleary, Bert, Sammy.


I been saying it. Babcock has "lists." One is his **** list. The other is his it list.

If you're on the **** list, one mistake and you're riding the pine and you're going to have to wait the rotation for the next guy on the **** list to mess up.

If you're on the it list, you can produce nothing, be a minus player every night, miss assignments, and you'll still get your ice time, a few promotions to the top6, and some PP looks.

It's ridiculous.

Another great post. Glad y'all are posting my shared thoughts and feelings. Saves me time and you do it in a more reasonable, well thought-out and appropriate manner.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Honestly, with Jensen out, I'd expect both Ouellett and Almqvist to be given shots at the big club this year when injuries hit. Which one gets the shot first probably depends on who goes down.

For that matter, depending on how we do, maybe Kenny will trade Quincey at some point. I just don't see them bringing him back when the contract is up.

If Ouellett is playing well he'll get called up before Almquist.

 

[Flowah]

I'm exciting just looking at that lineup.

Why?

Like getting excited about seeing the Powerball jackpot number go up. You're never going to win it and that lineup is a fantasy so long as Babcock remains committed to his boy Cleary and veteran nonsense.

Another great post. Glad y'all are posting my shared thoughts and feelings. Saves me time and you do it in a more reasonable, well thought-out and appropriate manner.

I don't know if you can sense it, but I do. More and more people are coming to the conclusion that something is wrong in the organization. One day, maybe even the reporters will ask a tough question or two! WHAT A GLORIOUS DAY THAT WOULD BE.

 

[SoupNazi]

If Ouellett is playing well he'll get called up before Almquist.

I'm not sure about that. Almquist isn't waiver exempt after this year, right? I'm thinking the Wings will want to see what they have in him at some point.

 

[Frk It]

Another great post. Glad y'all are posting my shared thoughts and feelings. Saves me time and you do it in a more reasonable, well thought-out and appropriate manner.

Flowah literally has the exact same outlook as I on the way management is mishandling the team.

...

It is a big deal. I'm just tired of having the same conversation everyday. It's like ground hogs day.

Hopefully one day the Red Wings will wake up and pull their head out of their ass. I lose faith it will happen more and more every day though.