GDT: Game #3 | Detroit Red Wings @ Boston Bruins | 7:00 PM EST | FS-D

[Winger98]

I was convinced the deals would be grandfathered. When I was told they might not be I remember going "Meh, don't worry about!" And then when I saw the new CBA I had a nice plate of crow that evening. Wasn't bad, but ya know, kinda crowy.

I was worried about it when we signed the deals. I figured Bettman was pissed GMs were so blatantly working around the cap, and how he came down on the Devils solidified that for me. It doesn't surprise me a bit that he would find a way to punish teams for doing it.

Part of why I favor the Franzen deal is that at least their was less money involved.

I'm not sure I agree with that. With the way the game has been trending 25 goals has become a bit more of an achievement & there aren't very many players who get to it these days. In the last full season there were only 59 25+ goal scorers in the NHL, there were 9 24 goal scorers.

In the last full season we had 2 25+ goal scorers, Franzen & Hudler, if you use last season stats & pro-rate them we'd have only had 2 25+ goal scorers. So obviously it's a little bit harder to find the 25 goal scorers these days & it's really only the top line guys that are able to score that many.

The number of 25 goal scorers seems to have been going downhill every year since the last CBA, as more and more obstruction has been allowed to creep back into the game and fewer powerplays appear to be handed out. For an idea of how bad it can get, there's the last year before the 04/05 lockout there was just 42 twenty-five goal scorers.

I'm not a big fan of games that are 2/3 special teams, but I would love to see obstruction permanently cracked down on and eliminated. At the same time, the league doesn't want to see guys get destroyed in corners and behind the goalie by guys who just barrel in unimpeded. I'm hoping we see a total move to no-touch icing and then a hard (and permanent) crackdown on obstruction.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'm not sure I agree with that. With the way the game has been trending 25 goals has become a bit more of an achievement & there aren't very many players who get to it these days. In the last full season there were only 59 25+ goal scorers in the NHL, there were 9 24 goal scorers.

In the last full season we had 2 25+ goal scorers, Franzen & Hudler, if you use last season stats & pro-rate them we'd have only had 2 25+ goal scorers. So obviously it's a little bit harder to find the 25 goal scorers these days & it's really only the top line guys that are able to score that many.

Play with Datsyuk, score 20-30 goals
Abdelkader scored at a 34 goal pace in the second half last year

Brunner scored at a 22 goal pace last year.
Hudler and Flip both scored close to 25 goals on the first line for 2/3rds of the year without first line PP minutes.

Name the last guy on the Red Wings to play alongside Datsyuk or Zetterberg on line 1 for the majority of the year and faily to score close to 25 goals?

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I was worried about it when we signed the deals. I figured Bettman was pissed GMs were so blatantly working around the cap, and how he came down on the Devils solidified that for me. It doesn't surprise me a bit that he would find a way to punish teams for doing it.

Part of why I favor the Franzen deal is that at least their was less money involved.



The number of 25 goal scorers seems to have been going downhill every year since the last CBA, as more and more obstruction has been allowed to creep back into the game and fewer powerplays appear to be handed out. For an idea of how bad it can get, there's the last year before the 04/05 lockout there was just 42 twenty-five goal scorers.

I'm not a big fan of games that are 2/3 special teams, but I would love to see obstruction permanently cracked down on and eliminated. At the same time, the league doesn't want to see guys get destroyed in corners and behind the goalie by guys who just barrel in unimpeded. I'm hoping we see a total move to no-touch icing and then a hard (and permanent) crackdown on obstruction.

I get the impression that you love officiating.

 

[Brick Top]

I'm not a big fan of games that are 2/3 special teams, but I would love to see obstruction permanently cracked down on and eliminated. At the same time, the league doesn't want to see guys get destroyed in corners and behind the goalie by guys who just barrel in unimpeded. I'm hoping we see a total move to no-touch icing and then a hard (and permanent) crackdown on obstruction.

The obstruction/interference thing is tough b/c so many players are really good at making it look like incidental contact. I'd be on board with a crackdown on it as it would certainly open up the offense.

I do think that Detroit would be hit as hard any other team if they truly crack down on obstruction. They seem to have a rep around HF of being a team that interferes more than most, and I think they get away with a fair amount most games. Z in particular seems to often be draped all over his man away from the puck, but his rep as an elite defender typically gets him the benefit of the doubt from the refs.

 

[drw02]

Should split up Pav and Z. Both are natural centers and much more effective with the whole ice sheet at their disposal. The chemistry just really isn't there with them. Babcock's lines are brutal. And he loves giving his young players the least possible chance to succeed. What is Tatar supposed to do playing with Miller and Emmerton? Get Nyquist up here and go with something like:


Franzen-Datsyuk-Tatar
Nyquist-Zetterberg-Alfredsson
Abdelkader-Weiss-Samuelsson(misses the net 90% of time but at least he will shoot the puck!)
Miller-Andersson-Tootoo/Cleary/Bertuzzi

 

[Bench]

Obstruction certainly favors the current Wings roster. But that could change quite dramatically if guys like Tatar and Nyquist start getting actual ice time.

 

[Roy S]

Play with Datsyuk, score 20-30 goals
Abdelkader scored at a 34 goal pace in the second half last year

Brunner scored at a 22 goal pace last year.
Hudler and Flip both scored close to 25 goals on the first line for 2/3rds of the year without first line PP minutes.

Name the last guy on the Red Wings to play alongside Datsyuk or Zetterberg on line 1 for the majority of the year and faily to score close to 25 goals?

Bert never did.

Plus, it's not just potting 25+ goals one season; it's doing it every single season while going against the other team's top line and being a perennial + player on top of that.

 

[Heaton]

Bert never did.

Plus, it's not just potting 25+ goals one season; it's doing it every single season while going against the other team's top line and being a perennial + player on top of that.

Exactly, and people being on pace for something doesn't really matter if they never do it.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Bert never did.

Plus, it's not just potting 25+ goals one season; it's doing it every single season while going against the other team's top line and being a perennial + player on top of that.

Bert never played 2/3rds of the season with Datsyuk.
The \year Bert played with Datsyu most was 2012 -- Bert didn't start playing with Datsyuk until late November and then Datsyuk was hurt by February.

And - it needs to be said -- Bert did not get first line PP time.

Franzen scoring 28 goals a year on Datsyuk's wing and first unit PP isn't a big deal. Brett Hull did it from 37 to 39.
Shanny scored 40 with Datsyuk at 36.
Homer scored at the 20 to 30+ goal pace on Datsyuk's wing.
Z was a 40-goal pace kind of guy on Datsyuk's wing.
Hossa scored 40 goals on Datsyuk's wing.

 

[Winger98]

I get the impression that you love officiating.

Not really, but I don't care for obstruction.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Exactly, and people being on pace for something doesn't really matter if they never do it.

In terms of Datsyuk's regular linemates over the years, Franzen;s production is pretty flimsy.

He's a lot closer to Holmstrom and old Bertuzzi than he is to Hossa, or old versions of Shanny and Hull.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Not really, but I don't care for obstruction.

Or icing races.
Or high hits.
Or fighting.

In general, it seems you want more regulation -- all I'm saying.

I'm obviously from a different perspective.

 

[Heaton]

In terms of Datsyuk's regular linemates over the years, Franzen;s production is pretty flimsy.

He's a lot closer to Holmstrom and old Bertuzzi than he is to Hossa, or old versions of Shanny and Hull.

Holmstrom, I'll give you, but Bert? Not really. And even old, you're comparing Franzen to two of the best goal scorers in NHL history. Franzen is what he is and if it were so easy to find 25 goal scorers teams wouldn't have such a hard time scoring goals.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Holmstrom, I'll give you, but Bert? Not really. And even old, you're comparing Franzen to two of the best goal scorers in NHL history. Franzen is what he is and if it were so easy to find 25 goal scorers teams wouldn't have such a hard time scoring goals.

Whatever. Bert's even strength production with Datsyuk is about the same as Franzen's.
It doesn't matter if you give it to me or not.

You're also comparing Shanhanan at 36 -- coming off 30 and 25 goals and then a lockout. He skates with Datsyuk and despite not even having great chemistry, he scored 43. 26 at even strength.

Hull was 37-38 and 39. Great goal scorer or not. He was at the end of his rope.

Hossa hasn't been back north of 40 goals. Zetterberg hasn't been back north of 31 goals since Z-D were separated.

My belief is you could change your wingers every year -- and if they had a decent level of talent, they'd score about 20 goals without big PP time. 25-30 with.

 

[Winger98]

Or icing races.
Or high hits.
Or fighting.

In general, it seems you want more regulation -- all I'm saying.

I'm obviously from a different perspective.

Fair enough, though I don't have a problem with icing races. I think the league is looking to phase them out. If so, I hope it is tied to a serious clampdown on obstruction. If they don't plan on opening the game up, I'm not a huge fan of changing the icing rules. Just keep allowing them to obstruct each other and you won't have guys getting ran through the boards.

 

[Frk It]

Couple quotes from Babcock on last night's game/the team

“It’s not a skill competition. Their four guys are working as hard as they can. Your five guys got to work harder.’’

So if we want to be small and play on the outside and not get involved and be light on the puck it’s a long night and we’ll spend the whole night chasing. If we’re on the inside and playing hard and being heavy, it’ll be a lot more fun for us.’’

On Tatar

“Normally, I don’t change a winning lineup,’’ Babcock said.” I was just looking for more. I didn’t get it.’’

Looks like we're striving to be the Detroit Ducks this year.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/10/red_wings_looking_to_be_harder.html

 

[Vladdy84]

“Normally, I don’t change a winning lineup,’’ Babcock said.” I was just looking for more. I didn’t get it.’’

Hey Babcock, you played a real team. Not two of the worst teams in the league like in the first two games. Canes may not be a bad team, but their not the Bruins.

If you played that "winning lineup" against the Bruins, you still lose by 4 or 5 goals.

 

[Winger98]

Ugly quote about Tatar, but says a bit about Babcock's disappointment with the bottom6 in general.

 

[SoupNazi]

On Tatar
...

If Babcock is looking for more, break up the Bert - Andy - Cleary line. Seriously.

 

[Frk It]

If Babcock is looking for more, break up the Bert - Andy - Cleary line. Seriously.

You mean the only 3 forwards on the team without a point? And the group that is -3, -3, and -2 collectivley?

He would but it's not a skill competition, we got to be heavy on the puck.

I swear, he forgot he is the coach of the Detroit Red Wings. He's fully resorted to Ducks BS hockey.
Apparently also he forgot that our turn around last year had a lot to do with finding a 3rd scoring line that could capitalize on the easy match-ups when Dats and Z's lines were neutralized.

It's so frustrating.

 

[DatsDeking]

Its gonna take some serious cash and promises for lines and TOI to keep Tatar and Nyquist here in the future if things continue this way. Pretty upset with Babcock over that statement.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Red Wings 2-0 without Tatar
Red Wings 0-1 with Tatar.

Babcock needs to bench this loser!

 

[Filppula]

Hey Babcock, you played a real team. Not two of the worst teams in the league like in the first two games. Canes may not be a bad team, but their not the Bruins.

If you played that "winning lineup" against the Bruins, you still lose by 4 or 5 goals.

You're a loser Babcock, seriously. He can't stand Tatar.

 

[CookieCrumbs*]

What's the status with my boy Tootoo? Is he injured or just a healthy scratch.

 

[BinCookin]

Ugly quote about Tatar, but says a bit about Babcock's disappointment with the bottom6 in general.

I have no idea what to say except it seems he is setting Tatar up to fail.

In Babcocks mind:

Cleary and Tatar are both good wingers but Cleary has more experience so ill play him.
Wait... maybe Tatar is better? Well I'll just play him agains the Best team in the East. And when the whole team gets outplayed... well back to Cleary.


I think it is time for us HFBoard to realize a simple truth here:

They Believe Bertuzzi/Sammy/Cleary are good players. 2nd-3rd line players probably. While Nyquist and Tatar are unproven guys. Holland will not lose Nyq or Tatar for free. But I do not think Holland is going to Babcock and saying... "hey man, Tatar needs ice time, he is better than everyone in the bottom 6".

We have to suck up the fact that the CURRENT belief is B/S/Cleary all are looked at as being effective players.

Hopefully our 3rd line continues to crap bricks while the 1st and 2nd line do well enough to win us games.

Eventually Nyq and Tatar will be put there. But its totally possible that it wont be for any long stretch this season