GDT: Game 18: Canucks @ Coyotes - 8PM - FSAZ
- Thread starter SniperHF
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kihekah19*
Registered User
I think they are under achieving too, the question is by how much? Also, it is still early in the season at the 18 game mark with a lot of very young players. Lets look at the standings in the West:
The bottom 5 teams are: Peg/Calgary/Colorado/Vancouver/AZ in that order. Peg has 20 points, we have 14, but they have played 22 games versus our 18 games. Does this bottom 5 surprise anyone? Maybe the order is a surprise or the Oilers playing well and not in the mix for once in 10 years. We win a few games here and we are in the middle of the non-playoff team hunt with a very young team.
That is exactly where I thought we would be this year and a realistic expectation. I don't think Jack Adams/Scotty Bowman/pick your favorite coach/ would make much of a difference. It doesn't matter anyway, because IA made a long term commitment starting this year. If the team is still bad by the end of next year, I could see IA making a change. We have a young team with flashes of brilliance but no consistency, just have to be patient.
kihekah19*
Registered User
I think the coaching staff could take a shorter term approach and we'd look better than we do, but (despite my recent mocking of the idea) they are willing to develop players, long term.
_Del_
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2003
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You said before the draft that if we didn't add anyone, we'd be in the 80s. If we added a dman we could be at the low 90s in point totals.
We are in last place and on pace for 64 points. How can you say we're where you expected us to be?
I'm guessing that besides the 4 or 5 posters that have an irrational hate for Dave Tippett, some of the 55 others expected us not to be in last place. I bet even most of the no votes thought we would be better than last place.You guys spent the entire offseason pumping Tippett's tires over the "22 point improvement" ignoring that was only possible because of how terrible we were the year before and that we still finished two points out of 4th last. Told everyone loudly that we were on the upswing. LeBlanc with his "fastest rebuild in history, ... if you can even call it that", and you guys lapped it up.
Now you're telling me you thought we'd be this terrible? Give me a break.
BUX7PHX
Registered User
- Jul 7, 2011
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Are you in the dressing room or practices when any of the coaches figure out the gameplan?
The problem is that you and many others preach how bad dump and chase is (which I can agree with), but part of the reason we resort to dump and chase is b/c we have had players on the ice for 40-100 seconds who haven't been able to execute properly to get the puck out of our zone, through the neutral zone, etc. So, we have to dump and chase to even get a fresh set of legs on the ice and try again. A player on the Coyotes being even 3 feet out of position can mean the difference in 5-10 seconds of puck possession time. We chase the puck, get more tired, and by the 3rd period, we have little left in the tank.
I highly doubt that Tippett's gameplan is as follows:
1. If you do not have the advantage (1 v 2, 2 v 3) in numbers once you get past the blue line, dump and chase.
2. If you are equal strength in numbers (1 v 1, 2 v 2, 3 v 3) once you get past the blue line, fake like you are going to take the puck one on one, then dump and chase.
3. If you have the greater manpower advantage (2 v 0, 2 v 1, 3 v 2), be very aggressive in your dump and chase activity.
If you legitimately think that this is Tippett's message to players, then you are right, he would need to go. But I don't envision that coaching message from him or any other coaches on the team.
Bonsai Tree
Turning a new leaf
- Feb 2, 2014
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When the Bulls took years to acquire the roster which could put them over the top. Once they had the roster they realized that Dough Collins wasn't the coach that could win the title, so they fired him and hired Phil Jackson.
I would leave Tippett as head coach while we acquire talent. If at that point he disappoints I would have no problem should he be fired.
I would leave Tippett as head coach while we acquire talent. If at that point he disappoints I would have no problem should he be fired.
The team is primarily going to acquire talent through drafting and development, something Tippett isn't great at.
If your standard is "Tippett needs to fail with one of the best rosters the league has seen in the last 30 years" ala the Bulls, then I can see why nothing is ever remotely his fault.
You said before the draft that if we didn't add anyone, we'd be in the 80s. If we added a dman we could be at the low 90s in point totals.
We are in last place and on pace for 64 points. How can you say we're where you expected us to be?
You guys spent the entire offseason pumping Tippett's tires over the "22 point improvement" ignoring that was only possible because of how terrible we were the year before and that we still finished two points out of 4th last. Told everyone loudly that we were on the upswing. LeBlanc with his "fastest rebuild in history, ... if you can even call it that", and you guys lapped it up.
Now you're telling me you thought we'd be this terrible? Give me a break.
As it sits right now, we are underachieving, no doubt, but I think we will end up close to last year's totals. I have said all along that this year is going to be a tough year with many ups and downs, and that is normal for a rebuilding squad. We are no different than other teams in that regard. Next year is when I hope we start to see more consistency which should result in more wins and points. IF, at that point we see no improvement then changes will have to be made, but I expect much better play in the second half of this year and all of next.
Bonsai Tree
Turning a new leaf
- Feb 2, 2014
- 9,252
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Without being a Tippett apologist, I just don't think that changing coaches at this point in time will significantly alter the trajectory of the team. (if he hasn't lost the room.)
A lot is his fault. He doinked the pooch with that overtime line of Domi, Doan and Strome, for one. He overplays his starting goalie, for another. Honestly, the book is out as to whether his system, designed for a grinding, low talent team (referencing an interview given by him after his first year, the year of tumult) will change as he gets faster, more talented players.
As a caveat, If the ownership thinks that he has lost the room, he should be out immediately. I say this because I see stupid mental errors on the ice by multiple players. I cannot account for those errors as due to a lousy system. I worry about whether Tippett has the room.
It's not about the trajectory. You can come in last but still have it be a positive season. They're losing because of effort and a terrible system, not because they are legitimately the worst team in the league on paper.
Every day that a coach that has lost the room stays, it poisons the well that much further.
Put Brown in charge for the remainder of the season and see how things go. Can't hurt at this point.
Matias Maccete
Chopping up defenses
- Sep 21, 2014
- 9,700
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[NHL][/NHL]
I think we need to burn away the whole NHL coaching staff. Keep the ahl group intact, keep the developmental coaches, but tip playfair brown and slaney should all go imo. Not sure how common firing an entire coaching staff is mid season, but I think that's what we need here.
I think we need to burn away the whole NHL coaching staff. Keep the ahl group intact, keep the developmental coaches, but tip playfair brown and slaney should all go imo. Not sure how common firing an entire coaching staff is mid season, but I think that's what we need here.
You said before the draft that if we didn't add anyone, we'd be in the 80s. If we added a dman we could be at the low 90s in point totals.
We are in last place and on pace for 64 points. How can you say we're where you expected us to be?
You guys spent the entire offseason pumping Tippett's tires over the "22 point improvement" ignoring that was only possible because of how terrible we were the year before and that we still finished two points out of 4th last. Told everyone loudly that we were on the upswing. LeBlanc with his "fastest rebuild in history, ... if you can even call it that", and you guys lapped it up.
Now you're telling me you thought we'd be this terrible? Give me a break.
Go read my coyote prediction thread post, the entire post, and the context around it, it's pretty accurate(the context part). Last sentence I predicted an improvement to 88 points, but no playoffs.The entertaining part was your 87 point prediction in the same thread
We both might be high on the point totalYes we are under achieving, yes it is still way early in the season,and yes I thought we would be in the non-playoff group of teams. The sky isn't falling, take a deep breath, we'll be fine
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_Del_
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2003
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Haha it was opening night. I caught the brief enthsiasm of the moment -- new page. Tried a spoonful of your koolaid! Even in that moment I joked we could just as likely end up with 50 something again, I think.
Regardless, it really isn't the point total I'm worried about as the fact the players don't seem to be playing cohesively, can't put together more than 15 minutes of good play at a time, and that we could be doing a better job putting young players in a position to succeed.
You guys are the ones with the "under performance" issue at odds with all your other defenses of the regime.
Regardless, it really isn't the point total I'm worried about as the fact the players don't seem to be playing cohesively, can't put together more than 15 minutes of good play at a time, and that we could be doing a better job putting young players in a position to succeed.
You guys are the ones with the "under performance" issue at odds with all your other defenses of the regime.
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BUX7PHX
Registered User
- Jul 7, 2011
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9 players under the age of 22. I don't even think there are enough veterans to lose a room over.
These are professional athletes who are essentially college kids. They still have to figure things out. I highly doubt that the room is lost, but instead that the room doesn't have a bigger picture view of what is working/not working. Just be prepared to give it time, maybe more than originally thought. The "quickest rebuild ever" was all hyperbole - technically we will have these same players for the next 3-8 years, so the roster rebuild could be considered as being done quickly in name only. The actual practice, preparedness, and all other pieces that come with were hardly mentioned and are simply a work in progress.
These are professional athletes who are essentially college kids. They still have to figure things out. I highly doubt that the room is lost, but instead that the room doesn't have a bigger picture view of what is working/not working. Just be prepared to give it time, maybe more than originally thought. The "quickest rebuild ever" was all hyperbole - technically we will have these same players for the next 3-8 years, so the roster rebuild could be considered as being done quickly in name only. The actual practice, preparedness, and all other pieces that come with were hardly mentioned and are simply a work in progress.
This is his 8th year. Was the roster 100% new every year? How about the last 4 where he missed the playoffs? There's carryover. If you look at how the team has regressed in terms of cohesive play, performance, and effort, it's pretty obvious that he is nowhere near as effective as his early years.
BUX7PHX
Registered User
- Jul 7, 2011
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No, the roster wasn't 100% new every year.
Who has carried over from then? Doan, Hanzal, OEL, Stone, Murphy, and Smith. Hanzal is only around 50% of the time anyhow. Doan, like coaches, has a shelf life. There can only go so much time when he can't be the leader that people expect, too. Stone and Murphy have ceilings.
Most all other players are caught in the development lifecycle. We even said it before regarding Murphy - he probably was too young to be brought up when he was. However, he was our most talented RHD in the minors.
You are basically making my exact point for me - if we had a group of drafted players that spent 2009-2014 playing in juniors, then the AHL, we would be in a position where those players understood the game-in/game-out preparation that is needed to play in the NHL at a much higher level. We haven't really had the opportunity to develop a lot of players. They were either in the NHL right away, or were simply not good enough to be on an NHL roster. I will unequivocally say that the last player that was truly developed was Stone. That's about it. We had to go veteran heavy in 09-10. We had to go young starting last year. In between has been a bevy of polarizing players - either too good for the AHL, or just not good enough to be a regular.
Give it time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and we have players trying to learn at an accelerated pace...
You're yanking the goalposts out of the ground faster than the holes can be turfed over. You don't have a point, other than Tippett cannot be faulted for [insert convenient criteria here].
We're not comparing him to no coach. We are comparing him to any other high qualified coach fortunate enough to find themselves in the NHL. It would be really, really hard to do worse than Dave Tippett if you set out to hire somebody and one of the first qualifiers was "Can this person develop talent?"
BUX7PHX
Registered User
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Any coach would struggle with the type of talent that we have not had to develop...
We have first round picks with flaws, even picking as high as #3. The Oilers have had four #1 OA picks. Eventually, that type of talent will have fewer struggles than ours.
That is my point - we haven't really been able to do much development at the necessary levels. The players who are developing now have to do so at the NHL level. Talent is there, but composure and poise aren't. Likewise, players whom we used to develop (the Brett MacLean, Jordan Szwarz, and those types) in the AHL learned composure and poise, but were/are not at the skill level to compete day in, day out in the NHL.
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kihekah19*
Registered User
Absolutely and the talent of those better picks the Oilers got is certainly shining as of late.
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