GDT: Game 15 VGK @ AVS Lake Tahoe Special | Also now the ducks GDT

[HanSolo]

I can condense this for you....


DeBoer Hockey

Yeah, I credit him for getting the team out of its funk it fell into under Gallant and at least got them looking like they were in shape and could competently counterattack. But the offense has gotten too predictable. It was a small handful of teams that really utilized that predictability in the past but the more things stay the same, the more teams can neutralize us by doing very little. It doesn't even take a good collapse to stifle us. Just a well positioned one. You could throw a fourth line with a third pairing out against our top line, as long as they're properly spaced with sticks on the ice it will frustrate all our attempts to score. Not saying necessarily our top line talent wouldn't be able to overcome the bottom of a team's roster on talent alone, but it they'd be able to make it more difficult than it should be.

DeBoer hasn't adapted and doesn't seem to think there's a need to.

 

[willy702]

1, 2, and 2 goals in the games against Colorado. Are we playing Dallas again? Or Vancouver?

Well the Avs do lead the league in goals allowed at 2.08 per game. The facts are quite clear, they can't beat a good team in the playoffs with a grind fourth line. They got somewhere with it when the Avs are playing two AHLers on the fourth, but getting healthy they can roll out a more equal match and that edge is gone. They need to transform the fourth line into a young aggressive group that can finish on occasion and isn't satisfied with just keeping the puck out of their own end of the ice. We know that's the hockey some fans like and was a good idea when you didn't think the team had enough talent yet out of expansion, but it's not necessary any longer. Use the skill guys and force the other team to respect them, not just grit out getting hit a few times but knowing there won't be too many real scoring chances. That's the only way they are going to get closer to the Avs this year and next.

 

[HanSolo]

Hah. Gallantesque coach delusion creeping back in under a new coach. No we didn't play a hard two periods. We had short flashes of our execution not looking incompetent but that was as good as it got. The best hockey they played the whole game was arguably the 3 minutes before the first period 5 on 3 Colorado had. Wasn't like momentum tipped to us but at least we matched Colorado's pace then.

We were never in the game in the second and third by any account other than Fleury keeping the score close.

 

[Vegan Knight]

Hah. Gallantesque coach delusion creeping back in under a new coach. No we didn't play a hard two periods. We had short flashes of our execution not looking incompetent but that was as good as it got. The best hockey they played the whole game was arguably the 3 minutes before the first period 5 on 3 Colorado had. Wasn't like momentum tipped to us but at least we matched Colorado's pace then.

We were never in the game in the second and third by any account other than Fleury keeping the score close.

You can tell we haven't had a lot of bad times by our overreaction to losses as a fan base. The score was pretty accurate, we were the second best team for sure but they weren't beating us off the mountain there. Our forwards had disappointing games for the most part but it isn't as bad as all this.

 

[hangman005]

Looks like a good thing I slept through this one.... sounds like most the team did too.

 

[HanSolo]

You can tell we haven't had a lot of bad times by our overreaction to losses as a fan base. The score was pretty accurate, we were the second best team for sure but they weren't beating us off the mountain there. Our forwards had disappointing games for the most part but it isn't as bad as all this.

I don't think it's an overreaction. It wasn't an all time worst performance by any means, so in a way you're right in a comparative sense that we haven't had a lot of bad times but we also haven't had that many games this season either and most of the ones we have have been against bad teams.

But it's also not an overreaction because I haven't been worked up in a panic about our chances either. To the contrary, I'm venting frustration that this team absolutely can be better but just weren't today. That doesn't mean the team's cup chances are doomed and it doesn't mean we're f***ed if we face Colorado in the playoffs or anything like that. But the effort wasn't there, the execution wasn't there, and the focus wasn't there. They played sloppy and uninterested hockey which is bizarre considering how they played in the first game against Colorado, and to a lesser extent, the second. I would've thought the way the previous game ended (and the unique nature of playing an outdoor game for what could be the last time in any of their careers) would inspire them to play more like they did in the 1-0 victory, matching the Avs' intensity shift for shift. But they didn't.

What bothers me about a coach coming out and saying a team looked great when they didn't is it's either 1. posturing for the sake of media positivity or 2. It's a lack of awareness of the issues that are his job to improve. Neither is good, but if it's a case of the latter it's especially grim as a tip off to his ability to adjust in the playoffs. Which he didn't do last postseason but I could give him a pass given the circumstances of the season being disrupted and being thrust into a weird bubble playoff format. This time around he knows what he's getting into and if he fails to adapt to where his team is deficient then it's a problem. And whether it's 1 or 2, it sends a message to his players endorsing whatever play they put out on the ice. Good or bad. If the players hear their coach say they played great when the passing was abysmal, the powerplay was functionally broken, zone entry attempts were poor, execution on transition play was largely being frustrated by the opponent's forecheck repeatedly, and puck decisions in general were poor, where's the urgency to fix these issues? Why fix what supposedly comprises strong play?

A lot of the team's issues, passing, predictable offensive set ups easily frustrated by simple collapse defenses, cement skate powerplays with too slow of a passing game have persisted for a long time. It's annoying enough that those issues haven't seen adaptive changes but to hear the coach say they played great for two periods when they really didn't is concerning if we want to see those adaptive changes made. Personally I don't think we're getting through a Tampa or a Colorado if at least some of these lingering issues aren't improved upon.

And just as an aside, yeah, a lot of the game we were being completely outclassed by Colorado and getting hemmed in for way too long and the only reason we weren't down by more was the defense and Fleury. Just because Colorado didn't bombard us with 45+ SOG doesn't mean the ice wasn't heavily tilted in their favor. Again, I know they can be better but having the coach act like we were for 2/3rds of that game is troubling.

 

[Vegan Knight]

I don't think it's an overreaction. It wasn't an all time worst performance by any means, so in a way you're right in a comparative sense that we haven't had a lot of bad times but we also haven't had that many games this season either and most of the ones we have have been against bad teams.

But it's also not an overreaction because I haven't been worked up in a panic about our chances either. To the contrary, I'm venting frustration that this team absolutely can be better but just weren't today. That doesn't mean the team's cup chances are doomed and it doesn't mean we're f***ed if we face Colorado in the playoffs or anything like that. But the effort wasn't there, the execution wasn't there, and the focus wasn't there. They played sloppy and uninterested hockey which is bizarre considering how they played in the first game against Colorado, and to a lesser extent, the second. I would've thought the way the previous game ended (and the unique nature of playing an outdoor game for what could be the last time in any of their careers) would inspire them to play more like they did in the 1-0 victory, matching the Avs' intensity shift for shift. But they didn't.

What bothers me about a coach coming out and saying a team looked great when they didn't is it's either 1. posturing for the sake of media positivity or 2. It's a lack of awareness of the issues that are his job to improve. Neither is good, but if it's a case of the latter it's especially grim as a tip off to his ability to adjust in the playoffs. Which he didn't do last postseason but I could give him a pass given the circumstances of the season being disrupted and being thrust into a weird bubble playoff format. This time around he knows what he's getting into and if he fails to adapt to where his team is deficient then it's a problem. And whether it's 1 or 2, it sends a message to his players endorsing whatever play they put out on the ice. Good or bad. If the players hear their coach say they played great when the passing was abysmal, the powerplay was functionally broken, zone entry attempts were poor, execution on transition play was largely being frustrated by the opponent's forecheck repeatedly, and puck decisions in general were poor, where's the urgency to fix these issues? Why fix what supposedly comprises strong play?

A lot of the team's issues, passing, predictable offensive set ups easily frustrated by simple collapse defenses, cement skate powerplays with too slow of a passing game have persisted for a long time. It's annoying enough that those issues haven't seen adaptive changes but to hear the coach say they played great for two periods when they really didn't is concerning if we want to see those adaptive changes made. Personally I don't think we're getting through a Tampa or a Colorado if at least some of these lingering issues aren't improved upon.

And just as an aside, yeah, a lot of the game we were being completely outclassed by Colorado and getting hemmed in for way too long and the only reason we weren't down by more was the defense and Fleury. Just because Colorado didn't bombard us with 45+ SOG doesn't mean the ice wasn't heavily tilted in their favor. Again, I know they can be better but having the coach act like we were for 2/3rds of that game is troubling.

The stats were remarkably even in the last two periods. I don't think he's far off saying we played pretty even in the last two periods. It wasn't our best but it wasn't theirs, either. We weren't miles apart in this game after the first.

I just don't think it's accurate to say Fleury kept this from being a 7-2 blowout because the score actually pretty accurately reflected the play. I think Fleury played very good on the whole but the first two goals are ones he probably wants back. The first he saw and got beat five hole, the second was a terrific MacKinnon play but even he admitted he just put the shot on net, and a wide angle shot that could be seen the whole way, with a shot being the only option ever available, probably should be stopped more often than not.

Not throwing him under the bus or blaming him for the loss, he may have made a save or two that could have easily gone in and it balanced out to a very good performance but not one that was the only reason we were close, especially when Grubauer had the higher save pct. so you could make that argument the other way. Which I'm not, either. They both played very well.

We were not as fast as them and their skill shone through better but we weren't run out of there. We were a bit worse and pretty fairly got beat by a goal, only a portion of our own fan base seems to think it was worse than that. Everyone else I've heard talk about the game is excited to watch the teams play so many more times and hoping for a playoff series because they enjoyed it.

The forwards need to move their feet more, especially on the power play, but Granger already tweeted the coaching staff knows this and have worked on it in practice for the past week. That, and the lack of urgency at the end, did us in this game but they know the problem.

I'm okay if he feels good about their overall fight in the night portion against the co-best team in the league if they understand where they can be better.

 

[CupInSIX]

They're 1-2-1 now against the good teams. You need to find ways to win, regardless of effort.

 

[Vegas07]

I thought the team would do better with Theodore back. It surprises me that the only win was without him.

 

[HanSolo]

The stats were remarkably even in the last two periods. I don't think he's far off saying we played pretty even in the last two periods. It wasn't our best but it wasn't theirs, either. We weren't miles apart in this game after the first.

Agree to disagree. I think this is as good a game as any to evidence that face stats aren't always dispositive and the idea that Vegas often has a tendency to have more of a quantity over quality approach to shots on net. Yes, looking at the SOG data, it would look like the two teams played pretty evenly but that's because the only strong part of the team's game was the one thing I didn't give them enough credit for and that's that they played a pretty good shot suppression game. But the reality of the eye test is that Colorado, in spite of being outshot in the third had a lot more zone time throughout the game and forced Fleury to make better saves than Grubauer did. By my count, outside of the two he let in, Grubauer really only had to make about two good saves that would've been goals if not for him. Outside of that Vegas took a decent number of low danger shots that Grubauer had no problem with because Vegas couldn't get clean looks at them because passes to better areas were a huge struggle and the few shots taken from high danger areas were often cut down by Colorado stick checks or good positioning forcing the in close shots to be aimed right at Grubauer.

Colorado, conversely, didn't get as many high danger chances as a consequence of Vegas' defense having an admittedly pretty good night but they had far more zone time than us, their passing conversion rate was a lot better, and their shots tested Fleury a lot more. I mean ask yourself objectively, how many times do you think we hemmed them in their zone for longer than 10 seconds and how many times they did it to us. We did it maybe twice at 5 on 5. Colorado did it a lot more. I'd cite the advanced stats but in fairness they'd be naturally skewed by the first period. Best I can do is the shot chart here Vegas Golden Knights at Colorado Avalanche Box Score — February 20, 2021 | Hockey-Reference.com where it shows that Vegas had about only five shots taken inside the area below the OZ faceoff dots while Colorado had about ten. But again, even that can be skewed by their powerplays.

Either way, off my sight test, we were significantly outplayed. I wouldn't be saying that in a close loss if I didn't feel it were true just for the sake of an overdramatic reaction. The only thing that was "even" was defensive zone shot suppression by both teams. Colorado executed at a much higher level everywhere else and pinned us in our defensive zone a lot longer than we pinned them in theirs. Again, I don't think that means Vegas is screwed and they can't do better. But I don't agree with the coach's or your assessment. The stats on their face show a closer game than the play on the ice did, sure. But the play on the ice told me a different story.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Fun game to watch. Fleury keeps on doing his thing and being consistent. I haven't heard much about Lehner lately. Anyone know of a status update and potentially when he will be back? I mean no need to rush him with Fleury playing the way he has been.

 

[willy702]

Fun game to watch. Fleury keeps on doing his thing and being consistent. I haven't heard much about Lehner lately. Anyone know of a status update and potentially when he will be back? I mean no need to rush him with Fleury playing the way he has been.

MAF is going to be absolutely worn out if he can't get some nights off with the tight schedule to come. Lehner needs to get back out there soon. MAF has been incredible and maybe they don't want to get him out of the groove but there will inevitably be a bad game or two at some point and that will be the sign to let him take a few games off. He's a legendary goalie and certainly has some left in the tank, but its very wishful thinking to believe there won't be some regression from him before the end of the season. And that might be the worst thing, if he finally hits the wall and starts having bounces go against him come playoff time.

 

[IceNeophyte]

Fun game to watch. Fleury keeps on doing his thing and being consistent. I haven't heard much about Lehner lately. Anyone know of a status update and potentially when he will be back? I mean no need to rush him with Fleury playing the way he has been.

And Colorado was without Mackinnon, Makar, a couple others for the game we won....

 

[theslatcher]

And Colorado was without Mackinnon, Makar, a couple others for the game we won....

Just because Flower shut out the Avs doesn't mean MacK didn't play that game lol. They were without Landeskog, Makar, Girard, Jost, Calvert, Johnson, & Francouz. We were without Theo, McNabb, Nosek, & Lehner.

Now they'll be without Gilbert because Kolesar destroyed his face from their fisticuffs.

 

[IceNeophyte]

Just because Flower shut out the Avs doesn't mean MacK didn't play that game lol. They were without Landeskog, Makar, Girard, Jost, Calvert, Johnson, & Francouz. We were without Theo, McNabb, Nosek, & Lehner.

Now they'll be without Gilbert because Kolesar destroyed his face from their fisticuffs.

You're right. I was thinking of Landeskog.

So we were missing a star and an important role player in Theo and Nosek, and they were missing 3 stars if you combine Girard and Jost to make one whole star, and Calvert is an important role player.

Goalies wash.

 

[theslatcher]

You're right. I was thinking of Landeskog.

So we were missing a star and an important role player in Theo and Nosek, and they were missing 3 stars if you combine Girard and Jost to make one whole star, and Calvert is an important role player.

Goalies wash.

Fun fact: Jost has 1 point in 12 games this season. tbh idk what to make of him, so yeah if combining him with Girard would make a star, that'd be one dull star.

Francouz has 1 NHL season under his belt as a backup, it was a good season, no doubt, but, that's not good enough to be a wash with Lehner.

 

[Vegas07]

“Everyone else I've heard talk about the game is excited to watch the teams play so many more times and hoping for a playoff series because they enjoyed it.“

The team has developed a pattern of getting exposed after playing a good team a few times in a row. We saw it happen with Vancouver and Dallas. We saw it in the Finals. If we see a third loss in a row to the Avs, that would concern me.

 

[IceNeophyte]

Fun fact: Jost has 1 point in 12 games this season. tbh idk what to make of him, so yeah if combining him with Girard would make a star, that'd be one dull star.

Francouz has 1 NHL season under his belt as a backup, it was a good season, no doubt, but, that's not good enough to be a wash with Lehner.

A wash in the sense that (in my opinion) each team's best goalie was on the ice anyway.

 

[CupInSIX]

Just because Flower shut out the Avs doesn't mean MacK didn't play that game lol. They were without Landeskog, Makar, Girard, Jost, Calvert, Johnson, & Francouz. We were without Theo, McNabb, Nosek, & Lehner.

Now they'll be without Gilbert because Kolesar destroyed his face from their fisticuffs.

Generational beating.

I hate when players get hurt from fights. Especially meaningless ones.

 

[willy702]

Kolesar beat up a guy who's destiny is a long AHL career. Maybe that's a sign.

 

[Haguerbomb]

New lines for tonights game. Stephenson still @ 1c.



Interesting to see how this goes..

 

[theslatcher]

Bill-Roy was fantastic last time they played together, but yeah, blender!

 

[theslatcher]

Also, just noted Holden is out.

 

[The Duck Knight]

PDB noted my request for a shakeup.

Hopefully the 4th line gets like 3 shifts total. I don't think there is a worse 4th line in the entire league right now.

 

[Vegan Knight]

Stephenson fumbles a lot in the offensive zone. Puts in the effort but I really wish we could put him on the third line.