Post-Game Talk: Game 1: Let's Get This Show on the Road | Blues at Hawks | 7:00 PM CT | NBCSN

[BobbyJet]

I don't care what anyone says, moving Schmaltz to the top line, and replacing Tootoo with whoever is not going to magically make this team so much better. Our team lives and dies on our top players playing like our best players. That's the reality of it when 2 of your players make 21mil.

If anyone wants to blame anybody, you can start with the 21mil poster boys for demanding so much money in a cap world.

And Stan gets off the hook? Of course he does in your world.

 

[BK]

Guess my rant isn't over.....

Read your words. Tootoo was not used in a “dzone start shutdown†role as you characterize it.

New Jersey was a non-playoff team, meaning they were not very good. Because they were not very good, they started from their defensive zone a lot. Moreso than any other NHL team:
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/teamstats.php?disp=1&db=201516&sit=5v5&sort=DZPCT&sortdir=DESC

There’s numerous teammates ahead of Tootoo in defensive zone starts both in raw numbers and on a per-game or per minute basis:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...0&teamid=18&type=corsi&sort=DZFO&sortdir=DESC

Percentage based in his time he was used in defensive situations. He ranked 3rd on the team in % of Dzone starts. Yes they they were bad but the fact remains he was 3rd on the team in defensive zone starts.

He was on a non-playoff team with 10 minutes of ice-time per game where his much fewer shifts had a slightly higher defensive zone start percentage-wise in the same range as Smith-Pelly and Tyler Kennedy. It's a statistical aberration. Tootoo is not a “dzone start shutdown role†player.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...&teamid=18&type=corsi&sort=DZPCT&sortdir=DESC

You can say it is an aberration but you have no proof that it is such. That is the problem with claiming that. He was give more defensive zone starts than he was offensive and that is a face. Again neutral zone starts are neutral and 100% should not be counted. I was wrong to assert that he was used in a shutdown role exclusively but unlike prior years he was used in the a defensive zone draws at a much higher rate.

No, they are real starting points of a shift where a player has no offensive or defensive advantage/disadvantage and the offensive advantage has to be earned by getting possession and transitioning to the offensive zone. This requires time and effort and half your shift could be done by the time you establish control in the offensive zone.

Patrick Kane started 36.9% of his faceoffs in the neutral zone. He had no offensive advantage. Advanced stats magically assign half of these starts to the offensive zone as if you were one face-off win away from a shot from the high-slot.

I hear the 60% number thrown around quite a bit with regards to a player's zone starts when the real number is significantly less than that, and the effects are further reduced by a faceoff lost. If you are in the offensive zone without the puck, you are not on offence.

Okay so if there is no advantage then they should not be counted in the calculation or assumed in any other calculations. Again it is neutral so it should hold no value so using it in the calculation is asinine.

Think about it. You'll either have possession of the puck with your d-man holding it in the d-zone waiting for the change or you've dumped it into the offensive zone and changed then. Often both teams are changing at this same time. Line changes are by and large neutral and they make up the majority of starts:

https://puckplusplus.com/2015/01/15...rts-matter-i-maybe-not-as-much-as-we-thought/

Again there are too many variables to make assumptions hence why they should not be counted (too many aberrations). I do think with increase in player tracking that we will be able to get actual numbers to track this but they are not available yet to my knowledge (along with puck locationp/possession by the second).

While I respect your train of thought on this I don't agree with it. Again this is something we can agree to disagree on. I could careless if you are "ranting".

 

[Hawkaholic]

And Stan gets off the hook? Of course he does in your world.

And what was he supposed to do, play hardball and potentially see them walk?

And we all know Stan does not work alone on these major contracts. A lot of the time, it's the PR staff (McDonaugh/Wirtz) that want to make a big splash/signing. I wouldn't be surprised if they pressed Stan to make them the highest paid athletes in the sport.

Funny though, I have seen you blame those 2 far more often than Stan.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

And what was he supposed to do, play hardball and potentially see them walk?

And we all know Stan does not work alone on these major contracts. A lot of the time, it's the PR staff (McDonaugh/Wirtz) that want to make a big splash/signing. I wouldn't be surprised if they pressed Stan to make them the highest paid athletes in the sport.

Funny though, I have seen you blame those 2 far more often than Stan.

And how do you know it wasn't all Stanley?

And he set up previous contracts to expire jointly meaning both would require big paydays.

And at end of day no one should feel anger at Kane for taking a contract he deserves and lives up to.. Toews on other hand should feel guilty for stealing Rocky's money and inflicting an awful cap mess on Hawks. Toews is not nor will he ever be worth 10.5M Per

Toews overpayment , Seabrook contract and Kruger contract are all crippling team going forward

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Yes, Toews is stealing money. Sweet Jesus.

 

[Blackhawks]

Like I have stated all summer, these rookies need time and are not ready. With Yakupov available its shame on Stan for not getting him. Steeger would perform much better than any rookie that we have. Only one game yes but non of them showed flashes of anything minus Forsling. This is gonna be a long frustrating season.

 

[BK]

Like I have stated all summer, these rookies need time and are not ready. With Yakupov available its shame on Stan for not getting him. Steeger would perform much better than any rookie that we have. Only one game yes but non of them showed flashes of anything minus Forsling. This is gonna be a long frustrating season.

Motte and Hartman performed better than Versteeg. Schmaltz will do the same shortly.

Hino is the big question mark.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

Like I have stated all summer, these rookies need time and are not ready. With Yakupov available its shame on Stan for not getting him. Steeger would perform much better than any rookie that we have. Only one game yes but non of them showed flashes of anything minus Forsling. This is gonna be a long frustrating season.

Zawaski said on yesterday's podcast, the Hawks offered a better package and the hang up was NOT salary retention. He also said, definitively, the deal falling apart was on Chiarelli, NOT Bowman.

Chiarelli could've had a better haul, but blew it.

 

[piteus]

And how do you know it wasn't all Stanley?

And he set up previous contracts to expire jointly meaning both would require big paydays.

And at end of day no one should feel anger at Kane for taking a contract he deserves and lives up to.. Toews on other hand should feel guilty for stealing Rocky's money and inflicting an awful cap mess on Hawks. Toews is not nor will he ever be worth 10.5M Per

Toews overpayment , Seabrook contract and Kruger contract are all crippling team going forward

Come on. Because of posts like this, we can't even have an intelligent debate about Toews. He's NOT stealing money. He had a bad season last year and needs to step up ... but he's certainly not stealing money. He didn't play to his contract last year.

If you put people on the defensive, the conversation is never rational. The Kruger's contract was fine if you calculate the discount he took for the team previously. The team did good by him. I get the Seabrook angst, but who else were we going to get when we are so short of the blue line already. It's not like we have an infinite window for championships.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Yes, Toews is stealing money. Sweet Jesus.

For 10.5M/year he should score 70+ points and be a permanent Selke candidate. Or score 90+ points. Or win Conn Smythe (along with Kane). Otherwise it's an obvious overpayment. And even then it's an overpayment, just not that obvious. 106 points season is what you should play like for this type of money.

 

[JaegerDice]

Are we back to the nonsense notion that Toews was paid for raw point production rather than impact on goal differential?

Theres a reason Kane disappears in best-on-best play when he's facing the top competition, compared to the offense juggernaut he can be playing behind an elite 1C that absorbs the top matchups while still putting up 25 goals every season.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Are we back to the nonsense notion that Toews was paid for raw point production rather than impact on goal differential?

Theres a reason Kane disappears in best-on-best play when he's facing the top competition, compared to the offense juggernaut he can be playing behind an elite 1C that absorbs the top matchups while still putting up 25 goals every season.

I'll never understand it JD. It's like... so many people think JT was paid to put up 100 point seasons, not prevent opposing team's best players from doing just that, and still put up 60-80 point seasons himself.

 

[Blackhawks]

For 10.5M/year he should score 70+ points and be a permanent Selke candidate. Or score 90+ points. Or win Conn Smythe (along with Kane). Otherwise it's an obvious overpayment. And even then it's an overpayment, just not that obvious. 106 points season is what you should play like for this type of money.

Exactly! Now we have 6 AHLers on the team and no depth on O because of it. Between Kruger and Toews there should be $4M in money that xoukd be spent somewhere else. This team playing 4 rookies is not enough for the emotional driven fans to realize that players on this team are overpaid and that is killing this team and it's showing on the ice. With TT and Shaw gone this team is gonna struggle to score goals unless the top two lines show up every game which won't happen and Toews is just a $7M player at best at the moment and that is fact.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Exactly! Now we have 6 AHLers on the team and no depth on O because of it. Between Kruger and Toews there should be $4M in money that xoukd be spent somewhere else. This team playing 4 rookies is not enough for the emotional driven fans to realize that players on this team are overpaid and that is killing this team and it's showing on the ice. With TT and Shaw gone this team is gonna struggle to score goals unless the top two lines show up every game which won't happen and Toews is just a $7M player at best at the moment and that is fact.

This just gets old. Who are the 6 AHLers on the team, huh?

I fully expect Hartman to put up similar numbers to Shaw. I fully expect Motte to put up similar numbers to either Shaw or TT(these two weren't that far off from each other btw)
I fully expect Schmaltz to settle in and start scoring. These kids have talent. You talk about them like they're career AHL'ers just plugging into an injured lineup. Get a clue.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

And Stan gets off the hook? Of course he does in your world.

Just IMO, but Stan made the decision based on the information available at the time. Can't hold him responsible for not forecasting the collapse of the oil market and the impact on the Canadian dollar.

More of a case of epic bad luck, and I don't blame the players for cashing in. Do I wish they took less? Sure, but that doesn't mean that they are to blame for the current makeup of the team.

And it was one damn game against a really good team!!

 

[JaegerDice]

Exactly! Now we have 6 AHLers on the team and no depth on O because of it. Between Kruger and Toews there should be $4M in money that xoukd be spent somewhere else. This team playing 4 rookies is not enough for the emotional driven fans to realize that players on this team are overpaid and that is killing this team and it's showing on the ice. With TT and Shaw gone this team is gonna struggle to score goals unless the top two lines show up every game which won't happen and Toews is just a $7M player at best at the moment and that is fact.

'Fact'.

 

[BobbyJet]

Motte and Hartman performed better than Versteeg. Schmaltz will do the same shortly.

Hino is the big question mark.

Motte for sure. Hartman scored but the jury is still out. Agreed about Hino but both he and 8 need time to settle in. The question is: will Q give any of them that needed time?

That said: the Blues 4th line exposed the Hawks bottom 6. Ras needs to be in there against physical teams.

 

[ChiHawks10]

'Fact'.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Exactly! Now we have 6 AHLers on the team and no depth on O because of it. Between Kruger and Toews there should be $4M in money that xoukd be spent somewhere else. This team playing 4 rookies is not enough for the emotional driven fans to realize that players on this team are overpaid and that is killing this team and it's showing on the ice. With TT and Shaw gone this team is gonna struggle to score goals unless the top two lines show up every game which won't happen and Toews is just a $7M player at best at the moment and that is fact.

BTW, Shaw is likely about to get his 2nd suspension of the season only 1 game into it. While I'll miss his grit, and toughness, and his heart, I won't miss his random stupidity.

 

[BobbyJet]

BTW, Shaw is likely about to get his 2nd suspension of the season only 1 game into it. While I'll miss his grit, and toughness, and his heart, I won't miss his random stupidity.

He also scored but don't let that deter you.

 

[ChiHawks10]

He also scored but don't let that deter you.

I know he scored. I actually love Shaw. Wish we could have kept him. Was one of my favorite players. Just stating that he is about to serve a second suspension only 1 game into the season... and that his random bouts with stupidity are something I won't miss about him. Despite missing him on this roster.

 

[JaegerDice]

Whatever you think of Andrew Shaw, he is not worth 4 million x 6 years, especially not for a team as tight against the cap as the Blackhawks.

Anybody who says that Kane and Toews are overpaid while pining for Shaw at his current ticket should rethink their roster-building priorities.

I'd rather have two stars signed for slightly more than they're worth, than have all the cap space in the world and no stars to pay because they're never traded and/or the organization won't tank to draft (and that's if they're lucky to draft on the right year... it took Edmonton 4 tries to get a franchise-changing player).

 

[Hawkaholic]

And how do you know it wasn't all Stanley?

And he set up previous contracts to expire jointly meaning both would require big paydays.

And at end of day no one should feel anger at Kane for taking a contract he deserves and lives up to.. Toews on other hand should feel guilty for stealing Rocky's money and inflicting an awful cap mess on Hawks. Toews is not nor will he ever be worth 10.5M Per

Toews overpayment , Seabrook contract and Kruger contract are all crippling team going forward

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I said.

As for the third sentence here, Toews and Kane were fairly even in importance to this franchise when they signed those contracts. One guy has a bad year and suddendly he is stealing money, and the other guy is worth it.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

One guy has for years carried inferior linemates on his back while other was gifted star wingers

Once #19 was asked to carry his line like Kane has for years,, He faltered

At 10.5M Toews needs to carry his line and carry team

No excuses for captain

 

[Hawkaholic]

One guy has for years carried inferior linemates on his back while other was gifted star wingers

Once #19 was asked to carry his line like Kane has for years,, He faltered

At 10.5M Toews needs to carry his line and carry team

No excuses for captain

1 player played against the best the opps had to offer, the other had cupcake matchups all the time. Keep ignoring that.