Semenko wasn't a 2nd line center so I'm not sure what you mean by that, but someone else mentioned Lucic and he'd be a nice player to have on RNH's wing.Gretzky had teammates who had his back and made sure he was protected. We have our Gretz in RNH and need Gagner to be a Semenko. Your Gretz analogy would be valid if Gagner was the go to forward on this team.
Semenko wasn't a 2nd line center so I'm not sure what you mean by that, but someone else mentioned Lucic and he'd be a nice player to have on RNH's wing.
We'd still need a #2C tho.
Kesler got 23 points on a team that had Sedin, Morrison and Linden also playing at center for the full 82 game season. Are you sure that Kesler just played "a top checking role with scrubs" or are you just talking out of your ass again? Everyone else in the hockey world knows that once again you're flat out wrong, you'd be best off to just avoid answering this.
You acted as though I sad Gagner > Kesler and to you it was some kind of a joke. Truth is, Gagner was better at 21 & 22 than Kesler was so your joke wasn't funny.
Our failure to communicate is coming from the fact that you just don't understand the limitations of direct comparisons.
When people are citing Gagner's lack of size as evidence that he can't be a good #2 center and the names of Gretzky et al are brought up, it's not an example of me saying "Gagner is better than Gretzky because he's bigger", it just means that centers don't have to top 6'2 and 210 lbs to be effective. IE, Gagner can still be an effective #2 center at 5'10 191 lbs. That's where the comparison ends for a rational, intelligent human. The point made about Gagner's size was moot.
People tried to mitigate the damage done to the size argument by acting as though the other small centers made up for their size with speed that Gagner doesn't possess.
You think that Gretzky's lack of size was overcome by his above average speed, wrong again. Gretzky had an uncanny level of anticipation, he was very deceptive and agile, he was a great passer forehand and backhand, he had great decision making skills with the puck, a knack for seeing and getting the puck to people in the open, and he was a master of making the very most of what time and space he had with the puck... and he had average speed. With a pedestrian understanding of the game you might want to just attribute his success to him being fast, go ahead and have your opinion. I watched him play from the time he came into the nhl and I think my scouting report >>>>>>>> yours.
"The total package" - you need to get the idea of "big center" out of your head and concentrate on "good center".Gretzky was 6'0" and 185lbs which would have made him about average in size relative to his peers. In fact he was about the same size as Dave Lumley. He was also much faster than you suggest. Gagner is more physical, but Gretzky seldom lost a puck battle. But in the end this is neither here nor there because Gretzky had absolutely incredible skill, far more so than Gagner.
The point is not that because of his size and skating Gagner cannot be an effective #2C. It is that many of us feel that the total package is not what it should be to be the #2C on this team, given the others in the top six who would seem to be more destined to be part of the core. Clearly some disagree, but using Gretzky as a comparative does nothing to help your argument.
"The total package" - you need to get the idea of "big center" out of your head and concentrate on "good center".
Gretzky as a comp is helping my argument quite a bit - he's the greatest player in the history of the game and he was too small to fit your idea of what a perfect 2nd line center should be. FYI Gretzky wasn't even 180 lbs and you're overestimating his speed.
Here's another comp for you, Adam Oates was 24 when he got 47 points in 76 games. That was in the highest scoring period of the modern nhl and Oates wasn't a speedster either. He was also almost exactly the same size as Gagner.
As far as what the Oilers need is concerned, they need a good 2nd line center more than they need 3 rw's (Yak, Eberle, Hemsky) for the top two lines. When you're thinking about who's destined to be part of the core you might want to focus more on whose skillset is req'd here and whose is in overabundance.
he's the greatest player in the history of the game and he was too small to fit your idea of what a perfect 2nd line center should beHow is comparing Gretzky to Gagner helping your argument when the only "qualities" you have presented that they have in common are a lack of physicality and and in your mind a lack of speed.
I've heard play by play announcers say that Gretzky was fast, it's a common mistake.(By the way, I am not the guy ho claimed that Gretzky regularly got caught from behind by average skating defensemen. I think you would have a tough time finding many here to back you up on this one.)
The Oilers missed the boat on Richards. He would have been an upgrade on Gagner but we don't have him.I'm not fixated on size. Mike Richards is not that big a guy but he plays a style that I think would be great given the Oilers top 6. Adam Henrique is a young guy who may well never outscore Gagner consistently, but if the offer was a straight up deal I'd be 100% in favour.
How am I modifying the Oilers lineup to fit Gagner? He's the second best center we have, he scores at an above avg rate for a 2C, if he's not here the Oilers don't have a #2C in their lineup. He's young, he's cheap, he'll get better as our 1st overall picks approach the peaks of their careers. How does he "not fit".For what it is worth I doubt we will see Hemsky in the Oilers lineup much longer. But if he is it will be because he has been able to modify his game to fit the kids. Yuo seem to want to modify the elite group to suit Gagner. This in my mind is not the way to go.
Approaching ufa status? Are we trading 23 yr olds now because of their proximity to ufa status? When are we trading Eberle? He'll be mighty expensive.You aso seem to ignore the fact that the clock is ticking on Gagner given that he is approaching UFA status. So while it is possible that he will up his game, if he does not do it extremely soon the Oilers will be forced to decide on his fate based on what he has done so far. This goes a long way to negate the "he's only 23" argument.
Gagner has trade value because he has shown that he can produce in this league. When he played with Eberle and Hall he had a stretch where he got 20 points in 12 games. Even if you take the 8 point game out that's still 12 in 12.I think Gagner would have more value in a trade than many because despite the fasct that I don't see him as a long term fit here, he does possess tangible skills and has done a fair bit relative to his age.
Sam Gagner will be a very good #2 center in this league, count on it.
Gagner has trade value because he has shown that he can produce in this league. When he played with Eberle and Hall he had a stretch where he got 20 points in 12 games. Even if you take the 8 point game out that's still 12 in 12.
He needs consistency in his game and his defense needs to be a bit better but right now he's a 7/10 at the end of his 22 yr old season. His career numbers avg out to about 46 points per season, the avg age of his linemates is about 19, and the avg games played of his linemates is about 40. Adam Henrique's linemates avg 30 yrs, and 400 gp.
Sam Gagner will be a very good #2 center in this league, count on it.
He will be but just not with the Oilers..
Hall, RNH, Eberle, Hemsky is skill for next couple yrs. Last year each one had more hits than Gagner.. Add in Yakupov and need for a skilled C shifts into a big top 6 C.
Gagner with his skill would be a good top 6 C in the league but EDM needs someone like Hanzal instead to compliment the big 4 + Hemsky up front.
What Edmonton needs and what Edmonton can get are two different things. Gagner will have to do for now.
What Edmonton needs and what Edmonton can get are two different things. Gagner will have to do for now.
Comparing Gagner to Gretzky because of their lack of size is like comparing a '91 Toyota Tercel to a top-end Ferrari because they both have cup holders.
But damn does that Toyota make a good cupholder!
Comparing Gagner to Gretzky because of their lack of size is like comparing a '91 Toyota Tercel to a top-end Ferrari because they both have cup holders.
Those damn early 90's Toyota's were way too small and underpowered. And most of them didnt even have cup holders, you either crammed the bottle between the e-brake handle and the seat or held it in your crotch.
So needless to say this team doesnt need a Toyota. This is Oil Country we need a pickup.
Insisting on grit in the top 6 no matter the skill level is like buying a car from the 40s because it gets the same gas mileage as a 2012 F-150.
Comparing Gagner to Gretzky because of their lack of size is like comparing a '91 Toyota Tercel to a top-end Ferrari because they both have cup holders.
here here. Not the perfect centre but a damn good one.
Or how about Marc Savard? He was doing OK but not spectacular in Calgary, so they punted his butt to Atlanta when he was 25 for Ruslan Zainullin (who? Yeah - exactly).
The Flames have spent the last 10 years trying to find a C to play with Iginla. Meanwhile, Savard has gone on to put up over 500 points in 488 games including seasons of 97, 96, and 88 points and has IMO been one of the league's most underrated players of the last decade.