Gagner at 2c

[Oi'll say!]

The difference is that you're comparing somebody who has an elite skillset to soembody who has fairly average skills.
So are you saying that you would move Yakupov before you would move Gagner?

I wouldn't move Gagner until the Oilers have a viable replacement lined up whoever that may be. But what i do know is that a RNH-Gagner combo will likely always struggle against tough, rugged teams which the west has several of and when you have Hall, Eberle and Yakupov on the wings, the need for a 2 way presence at center becomes even greater.
Just look at all the top teams, they all have a strong 2 way presence at center.
I think that Gagner is a better fit on a team like Anaheim or St. Louis where he can be sheltered by a big 2 way center and tough, rugged wingers. He is just not a fit here long term IMO.

Yes, I would move Yak, and I'd be **** scared to do it. But Yak also has more trade value.

One other thing to think about with yak, how well does he develop in a system where he's not the go-to guy, or the 2nd go-to guy, or even the 3rd go-to guy? If you're not the lead dog the view never changes and Yak should probably be developed somewhere that he gets the mins that a guy like him craves. Most 1st overall picks get the red carpet treatment and there might not be enough to go around here. He won't get 1st line mins and 1st unit pp and last minute of the game when the team is losing... He is not used to that and most 1st overalls don't face that.

 

[CupofOil]

Yes, I would move Yak, and I'd be **** scared to do it. But Yak also has more trade value.

One other thing to think about with yak, how well does he develop in a system where he's not the go-to guy, or the 2nd go-to guy, or even the 3rd go-to guy? If you're not the lead dog the view never changes and Yak should probably be developed somewhere that he gets the mins that a guy like him craves. Most 1st overall picks get the red carpet treatment and there might not be enough to go around here. He won't get 1st line mins and 1st unit pp and last minute of the game when the team is losing... He is not used to that and most 1st overalls don't face that.

I understand where you're coming from but i wouldn't be concerned about Yak. From many accounts, he has been the consumate team player, was named Team Russia captain etc. So i wouldn't worry about his ego taking a hit here.
I'm sure that Kruger will just roll the lines out equally so he'll get plenty of opportunities to shine.
It would be ridiculous to trade him because of the worry of how he will react to the idea of sharing the offensive load..

Anyway, as i said before, i don't see the combination of RNH, Hall, Yakupov, Eberle and Gagner being the group that takes this team to the promised land, just not enough diversity in that group in all ends of the ice so naturally, Gagner should be the odd man out eventually. Not now because there's no replacement lined up but eventually.

 

[I am the Liquor]

And don't expect others to buy your situational use of the idea that the final point tally of a player(irregardless of team changes, games played, and effectiveness) is the sole measure a player is judged by - especially when it comes to development and progress.

Sure. Its completely ridiculous to expect Gagner to surpass his rookie point totals, put up as an 18yr old with stars such as Cogliano and Nilsson. I mean, he has only had four tries to better it. We should probably just hush up until he has had ten.

 

[I am the Liquor]

OK, 49 points as a rookie in 82 games played almost exclusively with 2 other rookies on his line is "destroyed". You got me there IATL.

What is the point of this anyway?

Its not like it hasnt been gone over 1000 times already.

 

[Fourier]

What Schultz has done this season is stunning. Never said it wasn't. But put it into perspective - he is playing with some elite NHL'ers down in the AHL. He didn't do it with Arcobello et all last season.

He's got the #1 point position and he beat out whom? Jeff Petry and Ryan Whitney fresh off a 20 point season. Compelling stuff.

You made some good points about Schultz but you're still just guessing on the main point we're discussing here... you said that Schultz is better offensively and that's still just wrong at this point. Gagner has proven nhl offense, he got 33 points in 34 games at the end of his rookie season playing with two other rookies. That's more stunning than Schultz's 27 game run in the AHL with 3 elite nhl'ers.

I do believe that Schultz will be better offensively than Gagner, but in fact that is not what I said. i said that he sits behind Schultz on the pecking order as far as offense is concerned. The way I wrote this might not have been clear but to me this means that at this point the team would see Schultz as playing a more significant in generating offense than they would for Gagner. In part this is because of the amazing year he has had in the AHL but it also has to do with the lack of a gifted pp option.

Had the Oilers not drafted , Yakupov, Hall and Eberle, but rather had ended up with players more like Landeskog and ROR, Gagner might have a different future here. While I am not sure he would fit the system in St. Louis or Boston, I think that if you put him with their wingers he might really thrive. This is not to say that he would not put up points playing with guys like Hall and Eberle, but I think the Oilers will be looking for someone with a more rounded game to balance out the top 6.

 

[OilFury]

How was this overlooked? I want proof that Horcoff checks.

This should override the current conversation in this thread.

Horcoff = poop.

i thought it was funny ^^


Gagner is fine for 2nd line center and i expect playing with yak/hemsky all season he will put up his best numbers, but someone like Barkov would be a big step going forward and he is easily NHL ready

Yak can be an elite LW for us :p

 

[Tarus]

Sure. Its completely ridiculous to expect Gagner to surpass his rookie point totals, put up as an 18yr old with stars such as Cogliano and Nilsson. I mean, he has only had four tries to better it. We should probably just hush up until he has had ten.

Of course, those scrubs(as you put it) also put up career years they never repeated again, and in fact dramaticly regressed in performance since that shared 2 month hot streak.

Yet Gags is treading water and even showing signs of improvement.

Couldn't possibly be something about that year, that run, that team, and that line that possibly inflated all their stats? Possibly masking their real ability at that time?

Nah, couldn't be.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Of course, those scrubs(as you put it) also put up career years they never repeated again, and in fact dramaticly regressed in performance since that shared 2 month hot streak.

Yet Gags is treading water and even showing signs of improvement.

Couldn't possibly be something about that year, that run, that team, and that line that possibly inflated all their stats? Possibly masking their real ability at that time?

Nah, couldn't be.

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

Make up your mind.

 

[Ninety7]

arent you guys tired of talking about gagner..?

 

[lakai17]

What are you trying to say? That he hasn't had NHL-calibre linemates yet?

Yes Basil.

Edmonton have the potential to be running with two #1 lines in the future.

 

[harpoon]

He didnt, but the lunatic fans around here who insist he never got to play with any one with any skill, and that he will somehow magically become a 80 point player in his 6th or 7th season do.

Cheap shots aside, nobody suggested that "he never got to play with anyone with any skill". We all saw the few dozen games he got to play with Penner and Hemsky (in between games when Hemsky was injured and Penner was in the dog house). In fact he played fairly well with Penner and (less so maybe) Hemsky.

What actually happened was you came on and said that this player was deployed for "a lot of the time" on the "top line with highly skilled players". A simple glance at the Oilers roster for the first three years after his draft can tell you what a laugh that statement is. Pointing that out is not the same as saying "he never got to play with any talented players". Lets at least try to keep up the appearance of arguing in good faith shall we.

 

[Tarus]

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

Make up your mind.

Not really

I'm pointing out that the year you are using to establish a level of ability and show he hasn't improved as a player is flawed itself. He was underwhelming for the majority of the year(21p/50 games) before the 2 month hot streak inflated not only his personal stats, but that of his linemates, the team's place in the standings, it's chances at making the playoffs that year, management's estimation of everyone's ability, and everyone's expectations for going into the next year.

The entire arguement is not much different than other narrow, contextless statistical narratives such as "shooting percentage drives Eberle's results" and "Horcoff is a good player because corsi".

 

[I am the Liquor]

Not really

I'm pointing out that the year you are using to establish a level of ability and show he hasn't improved as a player is flawed itself. He was underwhelming for the majority of the year(21p/50 games) before the 2 month hot streak inflated not only his personal stats, but that of his linemates, the team's place in the standings, it's chances at making the playoffs that year, management's estimation of everyone's ability, and everyone's expectations for going into the next year.

The entire arguement is not much different than other narrow, contextless statistical narratives such as "shooting percentage drives Eberle's results" and "Horcoff is a good player because corsi".

Those arguments use props to try and alter reality.

Which is what you are doing with the long line of excuses trotted out to prop up Gagner.

I dont care what his ppg is or if he missed ten games one year and was healthy the rookie year or whatever. Its all bs. If a player cannot improve in a measurable and clearly identifiable way in four full seasons after his rookie year, then there is something wrong with the player, not the observation.

This isnt rocket science and Im not fostering some terrible bias. Do you really think I dont want Gagner to improve and succeed? Of course I do, but there does come a point in time when you should be comfortable calling a spade a shovel.

 

[Tarus]

Those arguments use props to try and alter reality.

Which is what you are doing with the long line of excuses trotted out to prop up Gagner.

I dont care what his ppg is or if he missed ten games one year and was healthy the rookie year or whatever. Its all bs. If a player cannot improve in a measurable and clearly identifiable way in four full seasons after his rookie year, then there is something wrong with the player, not the observation.

This isnt rocket science and Im not fostering some terrible bias. Do you really think I dont want Gagner to improve and succeed? Of course I do, but there does come a point in time when you should be comfortable calling a spade a shovel.

Except I'm not propping Gagner up, making excuses, or making any "if he had played so many games he would have beaten 50 points".

He's a much better player than he was in 2008. Much like the saying you can't judge a player solely on stats, you can't judge Gagner's progress solely because "49 > 47". You might as well make the arguement that Gagner(47) > Richards(44).

 

[Bryanbryoil]

There are lots of players people would take over Gagner.

But the NHL is not a fantasy league, and the real disconnect in the arguement is that the Oilers somehow have the option of replacing Gagner with someone bigger/better when they spent the better part of a decade fruitlessly trying to obtain centers anywhere as good as Gagner in the first place. Endless fantasy trades for unavaliable players, citing teams with 2 first line centers as a realistic model, and ideas about drafting 18 year old players and slotting them in as effective 2nd line centers the very next year all amount to the same thing - wishful thinking.

What it amounts to is this, will Gagner be able to match up with the opposing teams 1st and 2nd line C's in the playoffs. If LA decides to play Richards against him or Kopitar, in a 7 game series will he hold his own or get his lunch handed to him? I realize that attaining a better C isn't easy and it may have to come from this years draft or trade, however we are getting to the point where we can afford to move some assets to get these types of players unlike in years past when there was nothing in the cupboard.

The premise of this thread isn't "Gagner is the best #2C in the world", it's "Gagner will cover the bet as a #2C".

Someone said that Gagner was an avg point producer at #2C, there's widespread belief that a good #2 c has to be putting up 65 points or something.

Fact is that Gagner has played almost exclusively with u-20 players his whole career and he's doing extremely well under the circumstances.

The offense isn't a problem sans the consistency, it's whether he can match up and succeed against other good teams 1C's and 2C's. Since we know the Wild well for example, will Gagner be able to outproduce or come out even against Koivu or Granlund? He has a role in the NHL in his current state, I just don't see him as the 2C on a championship caliber team now or anytime soon.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

How about we try something a little different here. Let's say that Gagner will be here for at least all of the next NHL season, who do you see as his linemates?

For me it would be:

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Hartikainen-Gagner-Yakupov
Smyth-ABH*-Hemsky

*Anybody But Horcoff

 

[tiger_80]

How about we try something a little different here. Let's say that Gagner will be here for at least all of the next NHL season, who do you see as his linemates?

For me it would be:

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Hartikainen-Gagner-Yakupov
Smyth-ABH*-Hemsky

*Anybody But Horcoff

The team won't be the same a year from now. There will be another draft, Horcoff might get bought out and there will be trades.
I believe the line-up will look something like this

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Hartikainen-X-Yakupov
Smyth-Belanger-Hemsky
Eager-X-Jones

 

[Hynh]

How about we try something a little different here. Let's say that Gagner will be here for at least all of the next NHL season, who do you see as his linemates?

For me it would be:

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Hartikainen-Gagner-Yakupov
Smyth-ABH*-Hemsky

*Anybody But Horcoff

The miracle lineup would be

Hall-Barkov-Yakupov
Hartikainen-RNH-Eberle
???-Gagner-Hemsky
Smyth-Belanger-Jones

A realistic lineup would be

Hall-Gagner-Hemsky
Yakupov-RNH-Eberle
Hartikainen-Lander-PRV
Smyth-Belanger-Jones

 

[harpoon]

A realistic lineup would be

Hall-Gagner-Hemsky
Yakupov-RNH-Eberle
Hartikainen-Lander-PRV
Smyth-Belanger-Jones

Lineups that include MPS and Lander are in no way realistic.
I think tiger_80 is probably close .... and there's still room for Gagner in that lineup.

 

[fuswald]

First line with Gagner second with rnh.
Hall. Gagner. Eberle.
Hemsky. RNH. YaKupov.

Teams will be so busy defending hall and eberle no need for gagner to be 6'4"

Hall and eberle are still scoring in the ahl without rnh.

two top lines.

 

[OilFury]

RNH with Yak could really kill it, just have RNH with ebs and hall on the first PP as thats where they destroy the best 5on5 hall and ebs can do well enough with gags

 

[Hoogaar23]

Something else to keep in mind - I don't know if we will be able to afford a 2nd 1C with the elite talent on the wings. Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, and Hemsky. That looks to be what, $24-$25M on our top wingers, add in RNH, so you're at around $30M for 5/6 of our top 6. Which is not bad, but we really can't, in a cap world, have all of our top 6 guys making $5M-$6M can we?

Points wise, Gagner has been up there. Last year he was 33rd in ES points for centers, and 38th for total points amongst centers getting only 2nd unit PP time. His faceoffs have improved - inching towards 50% (47.6%). He led the team in +/- (not a huge fan of that stat, but better to be +5 than -5).

He's never going to win an Art Ross or a Selke, but how so many of you see him as the biggest obstacle, or even an obstacle at all, to us becoming contenders is beyond me. The kid is 23 and though he hasn't surpassed his rookie point totals, I do believe he has improved as a player, seems to have a great attitude, and likes it here. There are much bigger fish to fry IMO.

 

[Oi'll say!]

The offense isn't a problem sans the consistency, it's whether he can match up and succeed against other good teams 1C's and 2C's. Since we know the Wild well for example, will Gagner be able to outproduce or come out even against Koivu or Granlund? He has a role in the NHL in his current state, I just don't see him as the 2C on a championship caliber team now or anytime soon.

We've still never seen what Gagner can do with a full season when he's not mainly babysitting rookies who don't wind up becoming NHL'ers. Someone mentioned that Hemsky played on his wing for a while, I don't remember it but that's no help imo.

As it stands Gagner seems destined to play his next 82 games with linemates who are on avg far superior to what he has had in the past. It's a put up or shut year for him and I'm 100% sure that he'll sail thru it with flying colours.

 

[Oi'll say!]

How about we try something a little different here. Let's say that Gagner will be here for at least all of the next NHL season, who do you see as his linemates?

For me it would be:

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Hartikainen-Gagner-Yakupov
Smyth-ABH*-Hemsky

*Anybody But Horcoff

Funny how that 2nd line will be by far the best regular line that Gagner has played on and his linemates will start the season with 29 gp in total.

Seems like he's just destined to babysit.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Gagner= instant 5+ page thread