Confirmed with Link: G Ilya Samsonov heads to arbitration (Awarded 1 year, $3.55M)

[mouser]

I think this is where it may get sticky. I read somewhere that if Murray is actually injured, he cannot be bought out. You can't buy out an injured player.. He could claim he is injured and buyout goes bye bye. I did find it a bit odd that for the last game against florida when sammy was hurt, woll started and Murray was the backup. So he was injured all through the playoffs, but he was cleared and healthy enough to be backup. If he was actually truly healthy was it even considered to start him? Does the fact he was cleared to be the backup that final game guarantee that he can't now claim to be injured, and therefore can actually be bought out? If he is injured and can't be bought out, it would also make trading him to a third party with a trinket so they can buy him out not work either.

Honest questions, I do not know how that all works.

The major CBA medical evaluation points:

a) The Leafs doctor(s) clearing Murray as fit to play on ~May 9th, after which he dressed as a backup in games.
b) The results of Murray‘s end of season exit physical. After each teams playing season is over teams conduct exit physicals on each player, including whether the player is medically fit or unfit to play.

We don’t know the results of (b), but Murray didn’t play in a game between (a) May 9th and (b) (unknown date) likely May 13th to 15th. It would be very unusual for Murray to by cleared in (a) but fail (b) less than a week later.

The next CBA mandated player physical is

c) At the opening of training camp in September, all players are given physicals by the team doctor(s).

Teams cannot require a player to submit themself for a physical between (b) and (c). My understanding is the player can voluntarily undergo a physical during this period. This would most commonly happen if a player was rehabbing an injury under the supervision of team doctors. Note: even if a player is rehabbing a injury during the off-season the player is not required to do so under the care of team physicians—the player can use their own selected medical personnel.


If Murray was cleared as fit to play in (b), but wants to claim he is currently injured and unable to play he would have to successfully pursue one of three routes:

1) Challenge the doctors evaluation of being fit to play in (b) was incorrect, seeking a second opinion.
2) Argue he has endured a setback related to a pre-existing injury after it was cleared in (b).
3) Argue he a new injury in the off-season after (b) which qualifies as an injury incurred in the course of his employment as a hockey player. For example in off-season training.


My personal takes:
- I’m skeptical on (2). Most players don’t do any serious ice time training in July. The only realistic claim I could see is if there’s a concussion related setback.
- (3) Is something of a grey area. Would need clear evidence of a covered injury. And keep in mind such an injury would be unlikely to keep Murray out for the 2023-24 season.
- (1) Would be the most likely route for a challenge.


- Lastly I want to emphasize even if Murray isn’t healthy today, that doesn’t automatically mean he would qualify for LTIR the entire 2023-24 season. Buying out Murray now is a much cleaner solution for Toronto vs dealing with how to dump Murray if he’s cleared to play during the 2023-24 season. Especially the earlier in the season he’s cleared.

 

[Antropovsky]

I'd rather keep Murray as 1A, 1B with Woll rather than buy him out and lose the valuable cap space. Maybe we can re-sign Murray to a reasonable deal early next season.

Let Samsonov walk, trade Jarnkrok and Liljegren (does this get us under?)

Bertuzzi Matthews Marner
Knies Tavares Nylander
Robertson Domi Holmberg
Lafferty Kampf Reaves

Reilly Mccabe
Klingberg Brodie
Timmins Gio

Woll/Murray

 

[keonsbitterness]

We can't just put people on LTIR if they aren't injured...

I thought we did just that with a few players during the teardown. If the player is okay with it and a team doctor signs off, does the league really get involved?

 

[Mess]

 

[FerrisRox]

I thought we did just that with a few players during the the teardown. If the player is okay with it and a team doctor signs off, does the league really get involved?

Yes, they do.

Any player being placed on LTIR will require at the very last two doctors to confirm the reported injury, the team doctor, and an independent doctor that the league selects.

Additionally, there is usually a third medical opinion as well that the company insuring the contract will bring in to validate the two other independent findings of the first two doctors.

The idea that teams are "faking" LTIR has always been an HFBoards pipe dream. The idea that Marian Hoses didn't really have an allergic issue, etc, is all utter nonsense. The level of fraud required for that to be the case is deep into conspiracy land and, best of all, it would require the doctor hired by the insurance company to defraud ... the insurance company.

 

[Squiffy]

Well, result is right where expected, if we could see it the Leafs could too, right, no surprises here. So, what is the rest of the plan, we wait and see.

Buyout Murray? That or a trade has to be imminent right? That’s the safe guessing, the obvious next shoe to drop.

But.. still, it appears, not enough for compliance on an opening day roster. So what else, is the big question. They need to clear a couple million off the forwards salaries from the looks of it. In what manner?

 

[therealkoho]

Leafs might be smart to offer Ilya 3x3.35 and buyout "ol dirty Murr!"

 

[BigBlu]

I hate to say it. But the right answer really is to package the necessary draft picks with Matt Murray to clear the space completely. If it means re-signing Matthews and Marner to medium/long-term deals, the loss of draft capital really doesn’t compare. It sucks. But it is what it is. What is stupid acquisition by Dubas .

 

[Fogelhund]

I hate to say it. But the right answer really is to package the necessary draft picks with Matt Murray to clear the space completely. If it means re-signing Matthews and Marner to medium/long-term deals, the loss of draft capital really doesn’t compare. It sucks. But it is what it is. What is stupid acquisition by Dubas .

It’s been alleged he can’t be bought out due to injury issues, which leads one to conclude he’ll be on LTIR… which would be the best outcome.

 

[weems]

May have been posted already. Anyway, I can’t believe we all watched the same playoffs and there’s a sizeable chunk of people here who think Sammy can’t be the guy for us in net.

He was definitely really good in alot of big moments in that first series but at other times looked extremely shaky.

His regular season play + parts of the postseason + first round pick pedigree give me hope that we're now seeing a goalie finally starting to live up to his high projected potential.

 

[thusk]

The major CBA medical evaluation points:

a) The Leafs doctor(s) clearing Murray as fit to play on ~May 9th, after which he dressed as a backup in games.
b) The results of Murray‘s end of season exit physical. After each teams playing season is over teams conduct exit physicals on each player, including whether the player is medically fit or unfit to play.

We don’t know the results of (b), but Murray didn’t play in a game between (a) May 9th and (b) (unknown date) likely May 13th to 15th. It would be very unusual for Murray to by cleared in (a) but fail (b) less than a week later.

The next CBA mandated player physical is

c) At the opening of training camp in September, all players are given physicals by the team doctor(s).

Teams cannot require a player to submit themself for a physical between (b) and (c). My understanding is the player can voluntarily undergo a physical during this period. This would most commonly happen if a player was rehabbing an injury under the supervision of team doctors. Note: even if a player is rehabbing a injury during the off-season the player is not required to do so under the care of team physicians—the player can use their own selected medical personnel.


If Murray was cleared as fit to play in (b), but wants to claim he is currently injured and unable to play he would have to successfully pursue one of three routes:

1) Challenge the doctors evaluation of being fit to play in (b) was incorrect, seeking a second opinion.
2) Argue he has endured a setback related to a pre-existing injury after it was cleared in (b).
3) Argue he a new injury in the off-season after (b) which qualifies as an injury incurred in the course of his employment as a hockey player. For example in off-season training.


My personal takes:
- I’m skeptical on (2). Most players don’t do any serious ice time training in July. The only realistic claim I could see is if there’s a concussion related setback.
- (3) Is something of a grey area. Would need clear evidence of a covered injury. And keep in mind such an injury would be unlikely to keep Murray out for the 2023-24 season.
- (1) Would be the most likely route for a challenge.


- Lastly I want to emphasize even if Murray isn’t healthy today, that doesn’t automatically mean he would qualify for LTIR the entire 2023-24 season. Buying out Murray now is a much cleaner solution for Toronto vs dealing with how to dump Murray if he’s cleared to play during the 2023-24 season. Especially the earlier in the season he’s cleared.

Price was cleared to play in 2021 and never play again and will never play anymore because of injuries...

Be clear in playpff doesn't mean being healthy

 

[ULF_55]

The major CBA medical evaluation points:

a) The Leafs doctor(s) clearing Murray as fit to play on ~May 9th, after which he dressed as a backup in games.
b) The results of Murray‘s end of season exit physical. After each teams playing season is over teams conduct exit physicals on each player, including whether the player is medically fit or unfit to play.

We don’t know the results of (b), but Murray didn’t play in a game between (a) May 9th and (b) (unknown date) likely May 13th to 15th. It would be very unusual for Murray to by cleared in (a) but fail (b) less than a week later.

The next CBA mandated player physical is

c) At the opening of training camp in September, all players are given physicals by the team doctor(s).

Teams cannot require a player to submit themself for a physical between (b) and (c). My understanding is the player can voluntarily undergo a physical during this period. This would most commonly happen if a player was rehabbing an injury under the supervision of team doctors. Note: even if a player is rehabbing a injury during the off-season the player is not required to do so under the care of team physicians—the player can use their own selected medical personnel.


If Murray was cleared as fit to play in (b), but wants to claim he is currently injured and unable to play he would have to successfully pursue one of three routes:

1) Challenge the doctors evaluation of being fit to play in (b) was incorrect, seeking a second opinion.
2) Argue he has endured a setback related to a pre-existing injury after it was cleared in (b).
3) Argue he a new injury in the off-season after (b) which qualifies as an injury incurred in the course of his employment as a hockey player. For example in off-season training.


My personal takes:
- I’m skeptical on (2). Most players don’t do any serious ice time training in July. The only realistic claim I could see is if there’s a concussion related setback.
- (3) Is something of a grey area. Would need clear evidence of a covered injury. And keep in mind such an injury would be unlikely to keep Murray out for the 2023-24 season.
- (1) Would be the most likely route for a challenge.


- Lastly I want to emphasize even if Murray isn’t healthy today, that doesn’t automatically mean he would qualify for LTIR the entire 2023-24 season. Buying out Murray now is a much cleaner solution for Toronto vs dealing with how to dump Murray if he’s cleared to play during the 2023-24 season. Especially the earlier in the season he’s cleared.

Injuries happen during off-season training.

Sabres lost Jack Quinn for months during the off-season. They may or may not put him on LTIR, probably depends on their Cap Situation. They did put him on IR, IIRC he needed surgery.

How many times as Murray been on IR without surgery? And were any do to "self described" rather than "we see a tear" scenarios?

At any rate not a big deal part of the GM's job to have his team Cap Compliant.

 

[Peasy]

Mike Smith played every game in the Oilers playoff run and then was LTIR'd for the entire following year, and people act like its impossible for that to happen to Murray because he dressed as a back up lol?

 

[horner]

Injuries happen during off-season training.

Sabres lost Jack Quinn for months during the off-season. They may or may not put him on LTIR, probably depends on their Cap Situation. They did put him on IR, IIRC he needed surgery.

How many times as Murray been on IR without surgery? And were any due to "self described" rather than "we see a tear" scenarios?

At any rate not a big deal part of the GM's job to have his team Cap Compliant.

He wold be better to go on ltir for the yr get healthy

 

[ToDavid]

Yes, they do.

Any player being placed on LTIR will require at the very last two doctors to confirm the reported injury, the team doctor, and an independent doctor that the league selects.

Additionally, there is usually a third medical opinion as well that the company insuring the contract will bring in to validate the two other independent findings of the first two doctors.

The idea that teams are "faking" LTIR has always been an HFBoards pipe dream. The idea that Marian Hoses didn't really have an allergic issue, etc, is all utter nonsense. The level of fraud required for that to be the case is deep into conspiracy land and, best of all, it would require the doctor hired by the insurance company to defraud ... the insurance company.

I don’t think it’s so much faking as it is choosing to rehab/retire.

The reality is health isn’t an all or nothing game. It’s a massive grey area. Could Robidas have passed a physical and gotten out on the ice in 2015? Probably. I mean they let guys who are half corpses play in the playoffs. But his body was breaking down and he made a choice that was mutually beneficial to himself and the team.

Could Murray pass a physical and play next year? Seems likely yes, considering he did in the playoffs. But he’s suffered enough injuries that post-career quality of life is probably starting to become a factor. So he might be looking at a choice between taking a buyout and landing god knows where (potentially riding a bus in the AHL) or taking a year to rehab to 100% with some of the best medical personnel in the league while retaining his full salary. I would not call it faking, it’s just more of a long-term health issue vs a short-term issue tied to a specific injury.

Granted, this is all speculation.

 

[Kazparov]

For Murray it all comes down to if he wants to play.

If he does, he won't sit on LTIR and the Leafs will need to trade or buy him out.

If he doesn't then it's a non issue.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Thanks Dubas
We now have 2 over paid goalies, both who are often injured, neither you can count on. Ottawa are laughing their asses off.

 

[Nineteen67]

I hate to say it. But the right answer really is to package the necessary draft picks with Matt Murray to clear the space completely. If it means re-signing Matthews and Marner to medium/long-term deals, the loss of draft capital really doesn’t compare. It sucks. But it is what it is. What is stupid acquisition by Dubas .

They’ll need those assets in 2 or 3 yrs, do not waste them.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Yearly of all the players that file for Arbirtation only a very few low % ever make it through the process with an award.

Something like +90% of all players sign prior to a ruling.

It is a dumb situation when the arbitrator can insert his own number. Teams hate going because of the arbitrators take the middle ground anyway so they may as well.
It should only be one or the other. Keeps both sides more honest.

 

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Thanks Dubas
We now have 2 over paid goalies, both who are often injured, neither you can count on. Ottawa are laughing their asses off

Because they signed an often injured backup goalie to 4 mil/5 years? I am guessing it would have been better to have signed Campbell for his 5 for 5 deal then?

 

[Shooter2x]

Nice price, but a part of me wished they parted ways so we can see if Woll is the next breakout goalie in the NHL. Really don't see why he can't be. Who thought Ullmark would win a vezina? 0 people.

 

[4thline]

The idea that teams are "faking" LTIR has always been an HFBoards pipe dream. The idea that Marian Hoses didn't really have an allergic issue, etc, is all utter nonsense.

To me the controversial/ cap circumventing aspect of that wasn't whether or not Hossa had a legitimate issue- it was that it was something that he could clearly play through if/when he wanted to, and *purely coincidentally* that desire dropped off right when his contract tipping into the now illegal back diving years.

That has set precedent that LTIRetirement can be elective on the part of the player. As long as there is a legitimate underlying issue, said issue doesn't have to rise to the level of making them physically unable to play.

 

[ULF_55]

Thanks Dubas
We now have 2 over paid goalies, both who are often injured, neither you can count on. Ottawa are laughing their asses off.

I think you mean, Treliving, Dubas didn't just re-sign Samsonov.

 

[Go4soda]

not sure why people are upset with samsonov at 3.5 on a short term. HF, i guess.

 

[Niagara Bill]

I think you mean, Treliving, Dubas didn't just re-sign Samsonov.

No I meant Dubas who brought both guys here. Leafs do not have to accept contract from arbitration.

Because they signed an often injured backup goalie to 4 mil/5 years? I am guessing it would have been better to have signed Campbell for his 5 for 5 deal then?

No, Campbell was a bum, but Pittsburgh and Ottawa knew what Murray was. We knew what Campbell was and should have seen what Murray was.