Salary Cap: Future Roster Building (2017-18 and beyond) Pt. 3 | Contract/FA charts in Post #1

[Ogrezilla]

C'mon people. Ixnay on the ane-Kay.

You're better than that. The Pens are better than that.

they might be enough better to fix him

He'd have to come dirt cheap, and the team would have to be confident that his issues are behind him. But on the ice, he'd be a great fit. With the emergence of so many young wings I personally wouldn't take the risk, but if it happens I won't be upset either.

 

[T1K]

He's the same kind of player. Guy who skates fast and has a nice shot, but he's has just an incredibly low hockey IQ. Now just add toughness and you basically have Kane.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike him on ice, and saying his only issue is his character is ignoring a lot. He's an often injured winger who makes a lot of money that doesn't help his teammates out, is a really poor playmaker and has a history of taking some really stupid penalties. He's fast, he hits, he's a good goal scorer and he can kill penalties. That's basically all of his positive attributes. He's a low hockey IQ player, he's a straight up bad playmaker, he's a bad defensive player (being good on the PK doesn't mean good defensively), he's constantly injured, he has a huge contract, he doesn't play well with his linemates and he constantly takes stupid penalties. He's an incredibly flawed player, I don't know how you can possibly argue otherwise.

Not many guys in the league can do the bolded... how many power forwards are also great playmakers?-- pretty much just the top tier power forwards.

I fundamentally don't understand your point about him being bad defensively. I watched a fair amount of Buffalo this past year and did not notice him being bad during 5v5. His contract is fair market value, you can argue he's slightly overpaid, but he also only has 1 yr left. Injuries happen, but it wouldn't deter me from signing/trading for a player unless there were some sort of career threatening ramifications (Nathan Horton, for example).

Anyways, let's save ourselves the back and forth arguing about a guy the Pens likely won't be looking to acquire. Agree to disagree, I guess.

 

[Mrs Crosby's Dryer]

GMJR's comments re finally adding some toughness are encouraging and I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Having said that, I think we need one one forward and one defenseman in that mold to fit the bill. As forwards go, Matt Martin would be ideal for our 4th line. Great forechecker, punishing hitter, and as tough as anyone in the league right now. For our 7th D I wouldn't mind seeing Dalton Prout on our blue line for the same reasons.

Both are good enough to be regular players and have manageable contracts, so I'd rather go that route versus having a less functional player being frequently in and out of the line up.

It's all about the culture and having the other teams in the league be on notice that running our stars will no longer be tolerated. Be it dropping the gloves when needed or incessantly pounding their stars on every shift, this abuse on Sid, Geno, Letang, et al. has to stop.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

they might be enough better to fix him

He'd have to come dirt cheap, and the team would have to be confident that his issues are behind him. But on the ice, he'd be a great fit. With the emergence of so many young wings I personally wouldn't take the risk, but if it happens I won't be upset either.

As long as there's a big, fast, physical, goal-scoring wing available, I know some will want to be in on him no matter what he's done or what his reputation is. Fortunately for us, I don't think the price tag will ever be cheap enough for us to bother.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

they might be enough better to fix him

He'd have to come dirt cheap, and the team would have to be confident that his issues are behind him. But on the ice, he'd be a great fit. With the emergence of so many young wings I personally wouldn't take the risk, but if it happens I won't be upset either.

Pretty much exactly how I feel. I have no faith in the kid ever maturing or straightening up his act off the ice, but his on-ice athleticism, talent and build speak for themselves.

He'd have to come at a cost we'd be okay with paying, and JR and Sully would have to be absolutely sure they could fix the guy's head. If those two conditions are met, I can't really argue one way or the other.

I know I'd rather have someone like Kane, with the ability to score, play effective hockey, AND protect our guys on the ice rather than someone like Godard who is going to get 4 minutes a game, do nothing to deter/prevent cheap shots, and won't ever touch the ice in important situations.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pretty much exactly how I feel. I have no faith in the kid ever maturing or straightening up his act off the ice, but his on-ice athleticism, talent and build speak for themselves.

He'd have to come at a cost we'd be okay with paying, and JR and Sully would have to be absolutely sure they could fix the guy's head. If those two conditions are met, I can't really argue one way or the other.

I know I'd rather have someone like Kane, with the ability to score, play effective hockey, AND protect our guys on the ice rather than someone like Godard who is going to get 4 minutes a game, do nothing to deter/prevent cheap shots, and won't ever touch the ice in important situations.

I'd rather have that too, but I'd also rather spend less on a bottom-6 guy that can still be effective in his role (someone like Foligno or Maroon) while keeping the top-6 essentially together. My desires basically go add a bottom-6/bottom pair tough guy, add a top-6/top-4 tough guy and then add a tough guy who can't play in that order.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Looking at the Penguins roster, it's actually kinda weird because I feel like the Penguins would be lacking on talent on the wings if they would trade Sheary for a defensemen. I suggested Sheary for Petrovic, which I think is a pretty solid deal but I think the Penguins wing group would be weak in terms of skill beyond Guentzel and Kessel if they did that. The top-9 wingers would probably be Guentzel, Hornqvist, Hagelin, Kessel, Wilson and Rust. Maybe Wilson would fit in as a 3rd liner here, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about a Wilson-Bonino-Rust 3rd line if the Penguins re-sign Bonino.

Now, if they trade Sheary and plan on having Sprong on the 3rd line, that changes things. However, I like the look of 1 grinder/puck retriever and 1 skilled guy as the wing combos for the Penguins, and I'm not sure they can do that if they trade Sheary and don't promote Sprong.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'd rather have that too, but I'd also rather spend less on a bottom-6 guy that can still be effective in his role (someone like Foligno or Maroon) while keeping the top-6 essentially together. My desires basically go add a bottom-6/bottom pair tough guy, add a top-6/top-4 tough guy and then add a tough guy who can't play in that order.

I don't really want to add a tough guy, and I hope JR's comments were just a way to put the fire to the NHL a bit heading into the summer. Food for thought, basically.

If we have to go that route, and JR's serious about it, I don't want some 4th liner. I'd rather JR pay up and land someone who is going to be a significant player for this team.

My ideal pickup is Trouba, but he's going to cost a lot (if he's even available) and will likely mean Schultz is gone. I'd be fine with that, because I think Trouba's more apt to handling the extra minutes when Letang inevitably gets injured again.

Duchene's also really intriguing, though I think blueline is a more pressing issue. His versatility in being able to play all three forward positions, coupled with his speed and skill would be fantastic.

I just hope we don't do something stupid like sign Chris Neil in a knee-jerk reaction to the NHL failing to protect its players and the officiating being abhorrent league-wide. This team's too damn good, and has too specific an identity to go ****ing things up by signing useless guys who provide no real impact on games.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If we have to go that route, and JR's serious about it, I don't want some 4th liner. I'd rather JR pay up and land someone who is going to be a significant player for this team.

The issue is guys like that are going to be a lot more expensive just because they're tough, which is really dumb. I'd be perfectly content with a 3rd line guy who can play regularly and is also tough. Those guys, while more expensive than an average 3rd liner, shouldn't be too terribly expensive to acquire. Which would be more effective for the Penguins, trading Maatta for Evander Kane or Pouliot for Marcus Foligno? Both are overpayments in terms of what the other guy brings, but I feel like Foligno's price is a lot more easy to swallow, plus he wouldn't be a bad player in a 3rd or 4th line role.

I like the idea of Trouba, which is why I suggested Sheary for Petrovic instead. Petrovic is a watered down version of Trouba IMO, and he's a lot more likely to be moved than Trouba is (and would also be a lot cheaper).

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'd rather pay a significant amount for the right guy than to try to land someone on the cheap who ends up being a dud. That's what Shero did for years and years, and while I don't think JR is anything like Shero, I don't want to fall back into that spiral.

I really hate that the league and its officiating are so incompetent that we're genuinely talking about how we can **** with a roster that's gone to back to back Cup Finals because of it being built on speed and skill. Because of the ineptitude of the powers that be, our GM is seriously considering shifting away from a style and identity that's been wholly successful since he took over and put his mark on the team.

 

[Tender Rip]

With that JR physicality thing.... we can only make meaningful changes if we also make meaningful trades and signings, otherwise we are just adding useless snarl on the cheap a'la days past. Surely I'd be fine with getting Engelland back as a 6th-7th D if he would like to come back and take vet money to do so, but it doesn't really anything.

Example (forget about likelihood and NTC's and stuff):

Kessel for E.Kane plus something.
Maatta plus something for Trouba.

Let Bones go. Sign Hanzal.

Its a bigger, faster and more physical lineup. Are we better... I think so, but arguments could be made against it... especially by those more devoted to the Church of The Hotdog than I.

About Sheary.... to me even considering him depends entirely on his salary. With what he did this year, he should likely be an extremely cost effective player relative to production next season too... if he were to play with Sid. But we have Guentz for that spot who is just a lot better, and suddenly the picture is less rosy for Sheary. Depth is nice however.... injuries happen.
Another argument against trading Sheary would in any case be that most everyone would - fair or not - consider him largely a product of Sid and we are unlikely to get a lot for him.

If we keep Sheary and we have Guentzel.... and Wilson who seems like he has a certain faith from Sullivan and fits being physical.... maybe Hags is a trade candidate. Again - from the perspective that someone significant likely needs to leave if anyone significant is to be added.

On the back end.... outside of our own guys it is hard to find anything really meaningful in free agency I think. Alzner might be broken and could become the next Orpik contract. Shattenkirk is soff and not needed on a team with Tang and Schultz, and what is there really in the market beyond that? Stone, Kulikov, Brendan Smith? Its not guys who adds anything over what we have even if somewhat different, IMO, and with the dearth of quality UFA D, they are likely all getting overpaid.
We are only getting a D upgrade through trade and we'd likely have to overpay big.

 

[888 98 twins]

Yeah, I'd take Lowry from WPG all day to replace Bonino. Trade Fleury to LV for a 2nd and the agreement that they take Hagelin in expansion. Trade the 2nd for Lowry.

Sheary($4m)-Crosby-Hornqvist
Rust-Malkin-Kessel
Guentzel-Lowry-Sprong
Wilson-Rowney-Kuhnhackl
Sundqvist($.75m)-Archibald($.75m)

Dumoulin-Letang
Cole-Schultz(5.5)
Maatta-D?
Ruhwedel($1m)

Murray
Backup($2m)


That leaves about $6-6.5m in cap space to do what you want. Bringing in an impact guy in a Maatta trade, signing another C for depth, etc. Gonna be an interesting summer.

 

[Peat]

Speaking of getting some physical guys that can play, how ornery is ZAR? Is he a possible in house option?

I hope the idea of bringing in meanness doesn't obsess Rutherford at the draft again as well.

 

[Penske]

I know JR is talking the physical angle but you only make moves that make you better. We have a winning formula just needs some tweaks to keep us on top of our game.

Getting a tough guy won't stop anyone going after Crosby. Having Hornqvist on his line is good because when the whistle goes in our O zone he attracts the opposition like a magnet. Takes some attention away from Sid. He won't get into fights but if someone's on Sid, Hornqvist will be there.

 

[Tender Rip]

Yeah, I'd take Lowry from WPG all day to replace Bonino.

I'd like Lowry as well, but him being under contract for another year and then just RFA, being cheap and having room to grow probably means Winnipeg has little inclination for that - and certainly not for our 2nd.

Trade Fleury to LV for a 2nd and the agreement that they take Hagelin in expansion.

Are we on the train of thought that Vegas are not going to pick MAF, but instead needs an additional asset from us to do so?

Sheary($4m)

 

[Night Shift]

I agree with the notion that putting the pieces together to make us physical next year the 3rd line center position is an absolute must in that add. Hanzel seems most realistic. I do hate the idea of losing Bones, he's been so clutch when it matters

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I have a feeling there is already an agreement between MAF and the Pens that he waives to go to Vegas, and an agreement between JR and McPhee to take him.

 

[TimmyD]

1) Who else from Buffalo would make sense for us? I'm not necessarily against trading for Kane, as others have said Sullivan could be the guy to get him in line and I think he'd be killer in our system.

2) Haha well at this point if Duchene feels likes​ he's on the outs and the team blows maybe he pushes a trade to be made. He isn't good friends with Sid or Letang or anyone by chance is he? Haha

I think that him Nd Sid are actually pretty good friends off the ice. I think they train together sometimes

 

[Ogrezilla]

As long as there's a big, fast, physical, goal-scoring wing available, I know some will want to be in on him no matter what he's done or what his reputation is. Fortunately for us, I don't think the price tag will ever be cheap enough for us to bother.

pretty much. Though I am less opposed to him than you are.

Pretty much exactly how I feel. I have no faith in the kid ever maturing or straightening up his act off the ice, but his on-ice athleticism, talent and build speak for themselves.

He'd have to come at a cost we'd be okay with paying, and JR and Sully would have to be absolutely sure they could fix the guy's head. If those two conditions are met, I can't really argue one way or the other.

I know I'd rather have someone like Kane, with the ability to score, play effective hockey, AND protect our guys on the ice rather than someone like Godard who is going to get 4 minutes a game, do nothing to deter/prevent cheap shots, and won't ever touch the ice in important situations.

Agreed.

I'd rather have that too, but I'd also rather spend less on a bottom-6 guy that can still be effective in his role (someone like Foligno or Maroon) while keeping the top-6 essentially together. My desires basically go add a bottom-6/bottom pair tough guy, add a top-6/top-4 tough guy and then add a tough guy who can't play in that order.

JR's issue is with guys taking shots and Sid and Geno. To deal with that, we would need to add someone that can play with Sid and Geno imo. You need them to be able to step in and deal with it right then, not come in and get revenge on their next shift. That not only leads to penalties, but likely starts a series of escalating BS. A D-man who can do this stuff may be the way to go honestly.

I know Lando plays big, but is this a role he could potentially fill? Horny plays big too, but not in this sense.

 

[BHD]

Landeskog plays with an edge, and has crossed it a few times. He would start WWIII if a player took any liberties with Crosby or Malkin.

 

[thecore]

Landeskog plays with an edge, and has crossed it a few times. He would start WWIII if a player took any liberties with Crosby or Malkin.

This. Lando makes the most sense to me as a trade target. He's a LW, which is our weaker side, we're buying low with his horrible year last year, and he's exactly the type of player who can help protect Crosby and/or Malkin. I think he's likely to be as good as a prime Kunitz, though Crosby and Malkin are slightly past their primes so maybe not quite as productive. IMO, Lando and Rust would be a good set of wings to play with either center.

I'm hearing rumblings that the Pens will look to resign Schultz quickly, and if not, they'll trade him and let another team meet his salary demands. Colorado could obviously really use a player like Schultz, as their PP was last in the league and Letang is going to be our PPQB, like it or not.

So, if Schultz turns down a 5 x 5 type of deal, how about Schultz + Gustavsson + Kuhn for Landeskog. That seems to work really well for both sides. The Pens then go 7-3 for the ED and make a deal with Vegas for Fleury. It could be to take Hagelin, Wilson or even a guy like Archibald if Vegas values Fleury highly enough.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Kessel for E.Kane plus something.

Why? I don't get this swap. It doesn't do anything but add a headache and some hits.

I know I'm a huge Kessel fan, but what does this do? Unless the "something" is someone like Ristolainen.

 

[Shady Machine]

Wonder how much we would have to add in a Edler for Määttä deal.
Edler a mobile, physical, hard shooting, 2 way pmd would fit pens perfectly.

We shouldn't have to add a damn thing or at least nothing of significance. Edler is 31 and has 2 years left on his deal at 5MM. Vancouver gets Maatta for 5 years at 4.1MM and is entering his prime. Edler is the better player today but I'm not convinced it's by all that much.

 

[Shady Machine]

I wonder if Dallas is open to moving Johns. I feel like that kid would really thrive being back home and in our defensive system/development. He's big, fast for his size, has a booming shot, but I think he's lost in the shuffle in Dallas.

I mean they have: Klingberg, Lindell, Oleksiak (finally blossomed), Hamhuis, Nemeth, Honka, Johns, Bystrom, Bayreuther...

I don't see why they'd move Johns. He was probably their best Dman last year. Hamuis is a UFA after this year and honestly, he might be someone they look to move if they need cap space or want to open up a roster spot for the kids.

 

[Shady Machine]

He's the same kind of player. Guy who skates fast and has a nice shot, but he's has just an incredibly low hockey IQ. Now just add toughness and you basically have Kane.

This is a pretty bad comparison.

Kane averages 26 goals per 82 and 50 points. Yak average 15 goals per 82 and 34 points.

They may both have lesser hockey IQ than their speed and other skills allow, but comparing the two players is like comparing Tom Wilson vs Milan Lucic. Yeah similar style of play, but one is much more accomplished (and honestly, that's even a better comparison than Kane and Yak).