HF Habs: From Mediocrity to Being Less Mediocre - The Rebuild Thread Part II

[JoelWarlord]

Because some teams don't want 1.5 years of a player at TDL due to cap.

I guess so but not for players of their calibre who aren't in their late 30s yet. The teams that would plausibly want Tatar (Penguins/Oilers/Flames for Tatar) would want him for the 1.5 years because they have players coming off their cap at the end of the season and Tatar is a long term fit for them. Eg. the Penguins want a guy to replace Guentzel this year, and replace Galchenyuk next year. At 4.8M Tatar perfectly does that, same for Oilers/Flames who want a longer term solution at wing. With Petry I don't know which teams are rumoured to be in on him, but at 5.5M with the cap probably going up 3M I can't imagine there's teams who would be put off by 1.5 years of him at a premium position.

Also those guys are getting better each year so they aren't falling off a cliff. And Finally I didn't say TDL. At the draft we have 31 teams who could be interested in these guys, and possibly a team in the top 15. Imagine TOR misses the playoffs I am sure they would have interest in trading the 14th pick for Petry.

If we get the 12th OVA, we could package that and Tatar and move up into the top 10. Its the same story with Max where we had to trade him or the sky was falling and in the end we waited it out and got Tatar and Suzuki.

It's not about the players falling off a cliff, it's about them being more valuable now than they would be at the draft or next season. If Toronto is at 14 they don't have their 1st either, they sent it to Carolina and the only way they get it back is if it's in the top 10. I also think Pacioretty is another calibre of player and we also only got that deal because he agreed to an extension with Vegas as part of the trade.

If Tatar or Petry don't want to commit to another team at the draft next year then we won't get the same kind of return for them for just one year. Whether it's a trade at the draft or next deadline it still doesn't change that 2 playoff runs are way more valuable than 1.

For example, the Blues got a 1st which would be 27th at best (because the Caps were running away with their division that year) and two depth plugs for Shattenkirk as a rental. The Kings got a 1st that could be in the high teens to low 20s (because the Leafs had no chance of winning their division), and two solid B prospects in Durzi and Grundstrom for Muzzin. That's a pretty significant difference in value between a rental and a 1.5 year trade.

 

[ArtPeur]

Can people please stop adding names to our roster who haven't played a professional game yet. Haven't we learned anything about rushing "The Next One" It hasn't served us at all.

Romanov will win the Calder next year and the Norris within 3 years

Poehling is a top6 player

Honestly surprised by Suzuki though. I was expecting him to "fail" somewhat

 

[JoelWarlord]

Can people please stop adding names to our roster who haven't played a professional game yet. Haven't we learned anything about rushing "The Next One" It hasn't served us at all.

Remember when Poehling was voted #1 prospect this summer ahead of Caufield and Suzuki because he was "as NHL ready as you could possibly be" lmao

 

[ZUKI]

We kinda had to trade those 2nd rounders because we couldn't draft and develop for years, had to find help elsewhere.

Even then, since 2007, which was a monster draft, we have nothing in 2008, 2009, Gallagher in 2010, nothing in 2011, 2012 yeah Galchenyuk, which was mishandled, then became a nutcase (I suspect his family is involved), Lehkonen in 2013, perhaps Evans in 2014, perhaps Vejdemo in 2015 (Juulsen is a highly damaged product), Sergachev/Mete in 2016, at least we still have the latter, though we could have used the former right now...

Poehling has struggled mightily this season, shouldn't have been called up, will ideally do like Kotkaniemi and start having fun again, Brook also is struggling mightily, learning how to play defense against men, Fleury had a good start but needs to regain confidence, Primeau is having a nice season overall, Kotkaniemi struggled mightily this season but is now having fun and producing in the AHL, which is great, Ylonen is having a nice season in the Liiga, Romanov is great against players of his age, pretty decent in the KHL where there is some kind of political game involved in his case, Olofsson is very average in the SHL, Caufield is producing but is streaky, didn't do anything in the WJC (I don't really mind that part, he wasn't alone on the struggling department), Struble is having his up and down...

No one is 'dominating' their leagues, perhaps other than Caufield, but I still wouldn't call that dominating, hope he'll still be in the NCAA next season to really dominate.

I do like those last 3 drafts, mostly because I always am a draft hopeful, since I started following the team in the 2001 draft. They indeed look better than the 9 former ones, we finally perhaps have a decent chance at some NHL depth coming through the system, instead of horrible drafts, and who knows, maybe they'll even play for us instead of getting shipped elsewhere.

this long post is... well ...very long , but in the end , you don't take in consideration several elements . One is being the time to mature their play . It isn't all the players that can go right away to the NHL and have an impact . They aren't struggling , they are learning and one of the most difficult things to learn is the constancy . Another is the injuries . Oloffson and Struble were both injured so they take more time to begin to produce . Juulsen was doing good before his injuries ; now will he be able to save his career ? same with Ikonen .Ylönen plays with a bad team and if his production isn't flashy, it's good compared to his teammates .

Brook was very dominant in juniors, and he just needs to adapt his game against men. Harris, Ellis are very good in their ligues . In fact most of the juniors players are doing great .

 

[L4br3cqu3]

this long post is... well ...very long , but in the end , you don't take in consideration several elements . One is being the time to mature their play . It isn't all the players that can go right away to the NHL and have an impact . They aren't struggling , they are learning and one of the most difficult things to learn is the constancy . Another is the injuries . Oloffson and Struble were both injured so they take more time to begin to produce . Juulsen was doing good before his injuries ; now will he be able to save his career ? same with Ikonen .Ylönen plays with a bad team and if his production isn't flashy, it's good compared to his teammates .

Brook was very dominant in juniors, and he just needs to adapt his game against men. Harris, Ellis are very good in their ligues . In fact most of the juniors players are doing great .

Agreed, it perhaps was too long, but you said that the kids drafted in the last 3 drafts were dominating or playing well vs men, which isn't necessarily the case.

Forgot about Ikonen, understandably, he only played 13 games last season, and none this season, in the Liiga, small and injury prone, 2 bad combos for NA hockey.

Now, are they learning ? That, I totally agree with, they are, Brook is a slow learner, but he learns, other kids will get along, but we sure have to stop rushing them if we want something viable, and not just fillers.

 

[scrubadam]

I guess so but not for players of their calibre who aren't in their late 30s yet. The teams that would plausibly want Tatar (Penguins/Oilers/Flames for Tatar) would want him for the 1.5 years because they have players coming off their cap at the end of the season and Tatar is a long term fit for them. Eg. the Penguins want a guy to replace Guentzel this year, and replace Galchenyuk next year. At 4.8M Tatar perfectly does that, same for Oilers/Flames who want a longer term solution at wing. With Petry I don't know which teams are rumoured to be in on him, but at 5.5M with the cap probably going up 3M I can't imagine there's teams who would be put off by 1.5 years of him at a premium position.


It's not about the players falling off a cliff, it's about them being more valuable now than they would be at the draft or next season. If Toronto is at 14 they don't have their 1st either, they sent it to Carolina and the only way they get it back is if it's in the top 10. I also think Pacioretty is another calibre of player and we also only got that deal because he agreed to an extension with Vegas as part of the trade.

If Tatar or Petry don't want to commit to another team at the draft next year then we won't get the same kind of return for them for just one year. Whether it's a trade at the draft or next deadline it still doesn't change that 2 playoff runs are way more valuable than 1.

For example, the Blues got a 1st which would be 27th at best (because the Caps were running away with their division that year) and two depth plugs for Shattenkirk as a rental. The Kings got a 1st that could be in the high teens to low 20s (because the Leafs had no chance of winning their division), and two solid B prospects in Durzi and Grundstrom for Muzzin. That's a pretty significant difference in value between a rental and a 1.5 year trade.

I just don't see the rush and must to trade both those guys. If habs are within a few point come the 23rd there is no need to move them. If they are completely out of it then you can entertain the idea but I don't think both can be moved.

With time left on their contracts MB can take his time and wait for the best offer he likes instead of being beholden to a small few teams that have cap space for the next 1.5 years and are in the playoffs.

I would rather 30 teams then 10 or less being options. MB held out on Max and got what he wanted. Let him to the same with Petry/Tatar.

 

[The Great Weal]

With Seth Jones injured, Columbus will likely fall big time. Habs could pass them in a couple weeks.

 

[ECWHSWI]

With Seth Jones injured, Columbus will likely fall big time. Habs could pass them in a couple weeks.

just like when they lost Panarin/Duchene/Bob this summer... or when they lost their goalie to injury a few weeks ago ?

 

[ECWHSWI]

I just don't see the rush and must to trade both those guys. If habs are within a few point come the 23rd there is no need to move them. If they are completely out of it then you can entertain the idea but I don't think both can be moved.

With time left on their contracts MB can take his time and wait for the best offer he likes instead of being beholden to a small few teams that have cap space for the next 1.5 years and are in the playoffs.

I would rather 30 teams then 10 or less being options. MB held out on Max and got what he wanted. Let him to the same with Petry/Tatar.

what MB wanted is, to deal Pacioretty to L.A...

 

[get25]

Here we go again with the" local politics at the expense of winning " concept . Like if it was THE reason to justify Habs haven't won a Cup lately . Does that means that the Leafs are too focused on pandering to local politics - because they never hire french, russian, sweden or wherever countries staffs- They only go with english speakers from Canada and USA . That's why they didn't win anything since 1967 , maybe ?

Bergevin/Julien speak French, but hey, they aren't alone and there are many English people around them in the staff ; Mellanby ,Carrière, Sedwick, Timmins, Muller, Richarson, Ramage

2010 ; at 22th ; Tinordi dman, no 2nd, no 3rd
2011 ; at 17th Beaulieu dman , no 2nd no 3rd choices
2012 ; at 3rd Galchenyuk , 2nd Collberg ( Galchenyuk still put a 30 goals season )
2013 ; at 25th MaCarron , 2nd De La Rose and Lehkonen
2014 ; at 26th Sherbak , no 2nd
2015 ; at 26th Juulsen , no 2nd ,
2016 ; at 9th Sergachev , no 2nd
2017 ; at 25th Poehling , 2nd Brook, Ikonen, 3rd Fleury, 7th Primeau
2018 ; at 3rd Kotkaniemi , 2nd ; Ylönen, Romanov, Olofsson,
2019 ; at 15th Caufield , 2nd Struble

I put the last 3 years in blue because it too soon to know the impact that those selection will have

Regarding this, you could see how far were a lot of selections that 5 2nd rounds were traded in 6 years, and that 4 out of 6 selections were dmen ( by the way, Sergachev could still become a first pair dman) .

the 2017/2018/2019 drafts look very strong until now, because a lot of the players are dominating their league or are doing well even if playing against men

Harris, Norlinder, Hillis, Fonstad, RHP. Struble are not interesting? Same as Dietz and Thrower?

 

[montreal]

might as well give this a rest as it's clearly pointless at this time.