HF Habs: From Mediocrity to Being Less Mediocre - The Rebuild Thread Part II

[Gravity]

Yay 5.1%

 

[A Loyal Dog]

Yay 5.1%

Bergevin right now:

 

[ECWHSWI]

imagine finishing bottom 5, in any year, then being lucky enough to drop and draft 1st or 2nd and get a 18 years old version of Kovalchuck...

 

[Archijerej]

The current reality is that Bergevin is not trading players like Tatar, Petry etc, because it is in HIS best interest and not the teams.

Trading Petry means immediately joining the Ottawa/LA tier of teams, because there's virtually no one in the system who could fill his role.

Trading Tatar makes much more sense, but shouldn't be done at all costs. He's our best scoring forward and a key part to the best line we've had in years. If all Bergevin can get for him is close to a rental price, he might as well hold onto Tatar and move him at some point next year. Or re-sign him and trade one of Domi/Drouin.

The argument for him to not trade valuable assets is that HE wants this team to compete for a playoff spot next year. It compete for a Cup, but rather a playoff spot. This team that missed the playoffs last year while several players had career years and almost no injuries. This is because he hopes by making the playoffs, he’ll keep treading water and keep his job.

Do you really think that kind of objectives are set independently by Bergevin?

If there was a new GM with a mandate to improve the team, we’d already have Petry, Tatar Kovy etc. in the block if not more core players. The assets you’d get from selling these players at a high would set this franchise up for YEARS. But, it would also be more difficult in theory to make the playoffs next year.

Theoretically? Move all of those guys simultaneously and we're going to be down there with Detroit.

 

[Archijerej]

But there should be around 10 teams at the deadline battling for a playoffs spot and the teams that will be secured to make them wanting to add to their team. Petry and Tatar retained at 50% means you get a RHD at 2.75mil producing at a 45+ points a season, and a forward at 2.165mil producing at a 70+ rate this season and 58 points last season for another 2 playoffs shot. The return should be at least 2 1st round picks and 2 A level prospect.

If this was indeed the return, I'd move Tatar, no question. And so would Bergevin imo. Regrettably, I'm not so sure he'll be offered that.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Trading Petry means immediately joining the Ottawa/LA tier of teams, because there's virtually no one in the system who could fill his role.

Trading Tatar makes much more sense, but shouldn't be done at all costs. He's our best scoring forward and a key part to the best line we've had in years. If all Bergevin can get for him is close to a rental price, he might as well hold onto Tatar and move him at some point next year. Or re-sign him and trade one of Domi/Drouin.



Do you really think that kind of objectives are set independently by Bergevin?



Theoretically? Move all of those guys simultaneously and we're going to be down there with Detroit.

He’s the GM and he apparently makes all the calls. It’s not like Molson does anything hockey related.

As for becoming a 2nd tier team, I completely disagree. We still have Weber as our no. 1 and anchor. Price and a deep core of young players on our top 3 lines as well as tens of millions in cap space and a top 5 prospect pool with multiple picks in the next draft which will only increase in all those categories with selling Petry and Tatar at their highs. We can draft more, trade and sign to fill their roles as well as internally.

Trading Tatar and Petry might set us back a year or two (which I don’t even think it will) but it will more certainly carry us forward for a decade plus to come.

 

[CauZuki]

imagine finishing bottom 5, in any year, then being lucky enough to drop and draft 1st or 2nd and get a 18 years old version of Kovalchuck...

Modern day Habs fans can only imagine about such a thing , we only get awesome players when they are passed their prime and looking for a fun city to hangout. Should be fun watching other teams have elite talent while we have the hardest working smurfs in all the land. I really like Nick Suzuki but he's no Mackinnon and I desperately want a legit star perhaps my expectations are too high...After all, we are only a recent expansion team with no history or culture of winning and expectations.

 

[Kimota]

Maybe years from now we'll look back at MB getting Scandella and Kovy and think this was the dumbest aquisition ever. Stopping the next french star coming to Montreal and preventing the Habs to do a proper rebuild to start from scratch and getting genuinely better. This regime will be looked at the same as the Houle regime, A. Savard regime, Gainey regime, Gauthier regime as lost years with the franchise staying in perpetual limbo, like in a ghost state floating with no direction.

 

[CauZuki]

Maybe years from now we'll look back at MB getting Scandella and Kovy and think this was the dumbest aquisition ever. Stopping the next french star coming to Montreal and preventing the Habs to do a proper rebuild to start from scratch and getting genuinely better. This regime will be looked at the same as the Houle regime, A. Savard regime, Gainey regime, Gauthier regime as lost years with the franchise staying in perpetual limbo, like in a ghost state floating with no direction.

Some will say you're exaggerating but those same people don't realize the impact of sacrificing short term gain for long term benefit. Odds matter, having a plan matters, being able to acquire a Tatar,Kovalchuk or Petry at the right time is great but not when the team needs an injection of youth like Suzuki/KK/Caufield types and even then it's not enough to matchup agaisnt teams that have offensive juggernauts. Certain teams squander their top picks but smart teams know when they require more pieces and position themself for long term success. We aren't that far off but the problem is the type of piece we are missing is the hardest to acquire...Bonafide elite point producing talent , barring a steal in the draft it just doesn't seem like it's going to happen in Montreal. We laugh about the Leafs but their talent is young and Matthews is on pace for 60 goals and 100 points.

Nobody wants a purposeful tank but don't make playoff contender moves when the team clearly needs more young elite talent (without sacrificing what it already has). Instead people always fall for the fake hype and claim they are more satisfied by seeing a team work hard and fall short than fail and get a top pick...Well that just means the cycle of mediocrity will keep on going forever. I would hope with nearly 3 decades of what can best be described as average results, this would qualify as enough evidence to describe the bad state of this organization...

 

[Roadhouse]

It's quite simple, really. Have no direction / plan such that your intentions about the team are extremely unclear - that way, both the Tankers and Believers can imagine Bergevin is working in their favor. No one has a ****ing clue for sure though, that's why he's telling Molson 'they may not all love it, but only a very small amount of fans will be unhappy constantly'. Playing not to lose, basically.

 

[scrubadam]

I think its perfectly possible that MB told Molson that he needs 3 or 4 years (from when we drafted KK) for the young guys to mature and this team to be really competitive. In the meanwhile he will reset and still try to make the playoffs (which is what Molson wants, MONEY) but its not his goal by sacrificing young players and 1st round picks.

Maybe you can argue he is trying to have his cake and eat it too, but this team is right where they should be at this point in the re-tool. Outside of super homers I don't think anyone really expected the team to be in the playoffs even if healthy, so forget about suffering the injuries that the team has.

MB works for Molson not the other way around and Molson doesn't want to tell his buyers that the team will stink. He isn't going to tell beer fans that he will make the Beer taste like shit so in a few years it will taste good, and he aint gonna tell fans that the team is going to stink.

The big decision was always going to be next TDL and the X draft. Petry/Tatar are up next year and the X draft gives the team a chance to move on from Weber and or Price.

 

[montreal]

Maybe years from now we'll look back at MB getting Scandella and Kovy and think this was the dumbest aquisition ever. Stopping the next french star coming to Montreal and preventing the Habs to do a proper rebuild to start from scratch and getting genuinely better. This regime will be looked at the same as the Houle regime, A. Savard regime, Gainey regime, Gauthier regime as lost years with the franchise staying in perpetual limbo, like in a ghost state floating with no direction.

the Kovy and Scandella moves won't matter much in that regard as even without them it's very unlikely the Habs were to get a top 6 or 7 pick pre lottery at least. The only way they could come close to that bottom 5 or 6 group is if Price was out of the season or struggling, or they say traded Petry last year and replaced him with Kulak, kept Kinkaid all year and played him a good bit more and put Suzuki in Laval with Kotka and the other rookies and kept them there all year.

 

[get25]

For now, Habs have been performing pretty well.
Latest 12 games have been really good.

Keeping Kovalchuck short of a top-50 pick is a no brainer.
There is space for him on the wings next year even if Caufield does 20-25 goals. Domi, Tatar, Gallagher, Kovalchuck, Armia, Caufield is enough to fill the wings.
Having Lekhonen and Byron on the fourth line is pretty good.

There is also the elephant in the room regarding our roster: 2021 expansion draft.
Seems to me that MB has organize his cards with this draft in mind.
His ability to resign players going UFA in our team is going to be crucial.
We will want to sign players after the expansion draft.

 

[Kimota]

the Kovy and Scandella moves won't matter much in that regard as even without them it's very unlikely the Habs were to get a top 6 or 7 pick pre lottery at least. The only way they could come close to that bottom 5 or 6 group is if Price was out of the season or struggling, or they say traded Petry last year and replaced him with Kulak, kept Kinkaid all year and played him a good bit more and put Suzuki in Laval with Kotka and the other rookies and kept them there all year.

They should have planned for this draft years before. When I realised Lafreniere existed, THAT very moment I thought alright put the things in motion, play your cards right, you cannot miss this one. But MB is much in his own shit and he has such a lack of ambitions and foresight that he never think in advance. ch'tun fighter. Yea fight against a ciment wall over and over, you cannot go anywhere.

 

[pepperMonkey]

imagine finishing bottom 5, in any year, then being lucky enough to drop and draft 1st or 2nd and get a 18 years old version of Kovalchuck...

Sorry, can't. At least not with this management.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Maybe years from now we'll look back at MB getting Scandella and Kovy and think this was the dumbest aquisition ever. Stopping the next french star coming to Montreal and preventing the Habs to do a proper rebuild to start from scratch and getting genuinely better. This regime will be looked at the same as the Houle regime, A. Savard regime, Gainey regime, Gauthier regime as lost years with the franchise staying in perpetual limbo, like in a ghost state floating with no direction.

Well, to be fair, Gainey did make an honest push to become a contender. Sure, it went south but he did try. Can't say the same about our current GM.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Absolutely infuriating. If we're getting down to the deadline and not even trading Nate f***ing Thompson then why were we not in on Hall two months ago or Kreider now or literally anyone good.

Sitting on Tatar and Petry is a massive opportunity cost, we need to be thinking about that as if we're trading 1st+ for each player because that's effectively what we're forgoing to keep them. If we're already in so deep that trading two veterans for 1st+ each is completely unpalatable then why on earth was Ben Chiarot the only player we added in the offseason.

it's just infuriating. If you want to compete and make the playoffs than actually do it and give yourself an honest chance instead of this half assed stuff that just burns through the value of veterans. So deeply frustrating.

 

[get25]

Maybe years from now we'll look back at MB getting Scandella and Kovy and think this was the dumbest aquisition ever. Stopping the next french star coming to Montreal and preventing the Habs to do a proper rebuild to start from scratch and getting genuinely better. This regime will be looked at the same as the Houle regime, A. Savard regime, Gainey regime, Gauthier regime as lost years with the franchise staying in perpetual limbo, like in a ghost state floating with no direction.

So you are basically saying that both Scandella and Kovalchuck improved the team.

What is wrong with improving the team when the top-3 are going to be lottery picks?
We can still pick a real good player if we don't make the PO.

I do not want this organization nor it's players to give up.

BTW, I want to keep Kovalchuck.

 

[get25]

Absolutely infuriating. If we're getting down to the deadline and not even trading Nate ****ing Thompson then why were we not in on Hall two months ago or Kreider now or literally anyone good.

Sitting on Tatar and Petry is a massive opportunity cost, we need to be thinking about that as if we're trading 1st+ for each player because that's effectively what we're forgoing to keep them. If we're already in so deep that trading two veterans for 1st+ each is completely unpalatable then why on earth was Ben Chiarot the only player we added in the offseason.

it's just infuriating. If you want to compete and make the playoffs than actually do it and give yourself an honest chance instead of this half assed stuff that just burns through the value of veterans. So deeply frustrating.

Forget about Petry, we would be so depleted on the left that we would not make the PO.
Probably same without Tatar who might I remind you is our best scorer...
If there is any major trade it will happen before the draft...

BTW the Hall trad went so well that Arizona may trade him...

 

[1909]

Absolutely infuriating. If we're getting down to the deadline and not even trading Nate ****ing Thompson then why were we not in on Hall two months ago or Kreider now or literally anyone good.

Sitting on Tatar and Petry is a massive opportunity cost, we need to be thinking about that as if we're trading 1st+ for each player because that's effectively what we're forgoing to keep them. If we're already in so deep that trading two veterans for 1st+ each is completely unpalatable then why on earth was Ben Chiarot the only player we added in the offseason.

it's just infuriating. If you want to compete and make the playoffs than actually do it and give yourself an honest chance instead of this half assed stuff that just burns through the value of veterans. So deeply frustrating.

Do the Habs need more 4th-5th and 6th round picks ? NO !

 

[scrubadam]

Absolutely infuriating. If we're getting down to the deadline and not even trading Nate ****ing Thompson then why were we not in on Hall two months ago or Kreider now or literally anyone good.

Sitting on Tatar and Petry is a massive opportunity cost, we need to be thinking about that as if we're trading 1st+ for each player because that's effectively what we're forgoing to keep them. If we're already in so deep that trading two veterans for 1st+ each is completely unpalatable then why on earth was Ben Chiarot the only player we added in the offseason.

it's just infuriating. If you want to compete and make the playoffs than actually do it and give yourself an honest chance instead of this half assed stuff that just burns through the value of veterans. So deeply frustrating.

We have till next TDL to trade Tatar and Petry. and these guys value is only going to go up. At the draft we could probably use them to get a pick in the 10 to 20 range or a prospect like Suzuki.

 

[DAChampion]

Do the Habs need more 4th-5th and 6th round picks ? NO !

Yes I don't know why people keep bringing up trading Thompson, etc.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Forget about Petry, we would be so depleted on the left that we would not make the PO.
Probably same without Tatar who might I remind you is our best scorer...

I'm confused because I don't disagree with this or see how it's rebutting what I said. Of course we don't make the playoffs if we trade Petry or Tatar, that's the point. If we're not going to make the playoffs with Petry and Tatar then we should get value for them because I don't think it's wise to extend them. If we want to make the playoffs with Petry and Tatar we should be adding more than just Chiarot in the offseason so we can have a good team around those veterans.

If there is any major trade it will happen before the draft...

OK but we were saying the exact same thing last year. Habs big deadline move last seaosn was bringing in a fourth liner and they missed by a hair. A year later the biggest move they've made is Kovalchuk. He's been great, but at some point I am sick and tired of waiting for the next draft, then free agency, then camp, then January, then the deadline, and then we're back to waiting for the draft again!

BTW the Hall trad went so well that Arizona may trade him...

Signing Kovalchuk worked out horribly for LA and great for Montreal. Trading for Tatar worked out horribly for Vegas and great for Montreal. Things happen and Arizona isn't that good. Montreal is uniquely terrible at the things Hall is uniquely good at. He would have been an excellent fit here. I don't even know that Hall was the perfect trade target or anything but if we're trying to make the playoffs now we should have been trying two months ago or in the offseason instead of going into the season with 8M in space. Or doing nothing during two 8 game losing streaks.

Do the Habs need more 4th-5th and 6th round picks ? NO !

Yes I don't know why people keep bringing up trading Thompson, etc.

I don't really care if they trade Thompson for a 5th or not. But if we're trying so hard to make the playoffs that it would take a 3rd or better to move Thompson then we should have been far more aggressive in the summer or earlier in the season instead of just tinkering and subtracting Shaw and adding Chiarot. Just tired of the constant fence sitting, and really wish they would pick a direction.

 

[JoelWarlord]

We have till next TDL to trade Tatar and Petry. and these guys value is only going to go up. At the draft we could probably use them to get a pick in the 10 to 20 range or a prospect like Suzuki.

Tatar and Petry will absolutely not be worth more next deadline than right now. Why would any team give up more for them as expiring free agents than they would now to get them for two playoff runs?

 

[Kimota]

Well, to be fair, Gainey did make an honest push to become a contender. Sure, it went south but he did try. Can't say the same about our current GM.

Contenders by hiring Gionta, Gomez, Camilleri?

That very year in the summer of 2009 should have been a true rebuild year. But what he did was the quitessential "buying time" short term move. Getting half-ass B-players thinking they would make you a contender. That was the perfect example of what I've been talking about.