Frolik Vs Versteeg

[member 151739]

Last year could have easily been an anomaly in many ways. Last season was essentially perfect, guys.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I really don't think our PK problems stem from the fact that Frolik isn't here. It's a part of it, but even if he was here, it would still be ugly. Just look at our G's SV% on the PK. Your best PKer is your goalie, and that hasn't been the case.

I'll take Versteeg over Frolik all day, every day.

Hard to blame the goaltenders when we let the other team park right in front for a screen and walk right in for shots from the point at will.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Then he goes to WPG and finds his shot...figure that one out.

2011-12 he was really snakebiten to start the year and I think it really killed his confidence. Kudos to him for bouncing back the next year to settle into a different sort of role than what he was early on. But now on a new team I think it's helped him get that scoring confidence back again.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Hard to blame the goaltenders when we let the other team park right in front for a screen and walk right in for shots from the point at will.

Players have been parked in front of our net for a few years now. You're right about the players being able to get shots through from the point though, which brings me back to the shot blocking problem we are having. At the same time, Crawford keeps letting out rebounds galore on point shots, which isn't helping either.

 

[here come the]

Ya, and the year before last we had the same players, coaches (minus Kompon whos runs PP), same Dmen, same Kruger, and it was terrible that year with Frolik.

Maybe last year was an anomaly?

Like I said, Frolik is a small reason, but not the main reason. It has more to do with not blocking shots or getting in the shooting lanes, more than it has to do with Froliks aggressiveness.

Yes. Unreal goaltending on the PK last year. Had to be close to some record breaking numbers. And a lot is luck I think too. Doesn't it seem like every tip or deflection goes in this year? They're allowing the same shots per 60, I honestly don't think they're that much more passive, they did the rotating sagging box thing last year. The difference in the PK is actually the units besides the Kruger unit getting scored on.

 

[BobbyJet]

Ya, and the year before last we had the same players, coaches (minus Kompon whos runs PP), same Dmen, same Kruger, and it was terrible that year with Frolik.

Maybe last year was an anomaly?

Like I said, Frolik is a small reason, but not the main reason. It has more to do with not blocking shots or getting in the shooting lanes, more than it has to do with Froliks aggressiveness.

Anomalies don't last for a full season. I know many here hate to think or admit that Frolik was that valuable but as someone mentioned, he grew into the PK role, it didn't just happen overnight. He was very good at not allowing the ops to set up in our end and disrupting play at the right moment. That disruption would lead to quick line changes that were, and are, key to a good PK.

 

[Kurtosis]

I think it is quite incredible that a contingent around here believes that one player is the difference between a top 3 penalty kill and a bottom of the barrel one. The execution this year is abominable and that has nothing to do with Frolik. This team has the talent to be able to kill penalties at a much better clip and Frolik is a terrible excuse as to why they are not.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Seriously. What are we 15% lower this year. Bobby Orr in his prime might make half the difference up. Frolik? Unless he's a pk demigod his loss isn't the issue.

 

[zytz]

Frolik isn't the main difference maker on the PK this year... it's defense and goaltending. we're back to 2011-2012 where our defense is letting one or more opposing forward in between them and the goaltender for easy easy goals from screens deflections and rebounds. as with all our special teams woes, it seems to be more about the coaching than anything else. If the defense remembers what they did last year our PK goes back up to top 10 IMO

 

[BobbyJet]

The PK is SO passive compared to last season. When the ops set-up in our zone it often looks more like a 5 on 3. So all you wise folks out there: which Hawk player last season was the aggressor on our PK (hint, it wasn't Kruger)?

So back on topic, I hope a player like Versteeg or Ben Smith can grow into that role (Zus can't do it, nor could Nordstrom at this stage). Shoot, Q has even put 52 out there, and that shows some desperation. Until we get this thing sorted, Q should play more of 19 and 81 in the PK role. The good news is we tend to take fewer minors than most teams.

 

[CertainAffinity*]

The PK is SO passive compared to last season. When the ops set-up in our zone it often looks more like a 5 on 3. So all you wise folks out there: which Hawk player last season was the aggressor on our PK (hint, it wasn't Kruger)?

So back on topic, I hope a player like Versteeg or Ben Smith can grow into that role (Zus can't do it, nor could Nordstrom at this stage). Shoot, Q has even put 52 out there, and that shows some desperation. Until we get this thing sorted, Q should play more of 19 and 81 in the PK role. The good news is we tend to take fewer minors than most teams.

The PK has gotten markedly better since Zus was added to it. Granted, it's not a viable long-term solution when the team SHOULD be trying to keep him as fresh as possible for the playoffs (assuming they don't go wit Pirri at number 2, which I would bet good money Q is not going to do in the playoffs), but to say he can't is a little misleading.

 

[LandofLincoln*]

Frolik is having a very nice year in Winnipeg 8G 9A = 17 points in 32 games a little over .50PPG player and 3rd leading scorer. Looks like he will be a 20G player once again. Glad he is doing well. He was a player buried in the Hawks depth.

 

[ChiGuySez]

At half salary, Id want him back. Glad to see him doing well with the Jets.

 

[HjalmarFan]

Kris Versteeg replaces Viktor Stalberg, who was a complete waste during the NHL Playoffs, and not Michael Frolik.

Irrelevant. Getting rid of Frolik was a cap-based decision, yet Versteeg has essentially the same cap hit. Therefore the analogy is valid. If the Hawks didn't have room for Frolik, they wouldn't have room for Versteeg and vice versa. So the question is fair. Since they cost the same, which would you rather have? If you want to quibble over roles, we can expand the question to this: Which would you rather have Versteeg/Smith or Morin/Frolik?

The problem, however, is timing. It's easier and safer to spend up to the cap limit in November than in July. So it makes sense to dump a Frolik/Versteeg contract in the Summer and then pick one up in the Fall.

It's actually a really good question. I think I'd rather have Versteeg, who is still coming back from a serious injury and I expect will keep getting better. Also, Bolland was a very good penalty killer and Pirri has been a disappointment as his replacement. Losing Bolland has been costly for the penalty kill. It's not all Frolik.

Finally, while the Hawks PK is definitely inferior to last year because of those two losses, I think the Hawks have just have had a rough penalty kill stretch. I think they will finish the year in the middle of the pack. It would be a mistake to assume that Number 1 minus Frolik equals Number 29. Frolik's good, but not that good. No one is.

The most important consideration in comparing Frolik and Versteeg is not their 2013-14 cap hit. Frolik is on the last year of his deal and has a raise coming (especially with the year he's having: 8 G, 17 Pts). Versteeg has two more years after this one. So the real question is not Frolik vs. Versteeg, but one year of Frolik vs. three years of Versteeg. And that is where what first appears as a difficult question becomes really, really easy. Anyone who would rather have one year of Frolik versus three years of Versteeg has compromised his intelligence. Or in other words, you're a Panthers Fan.

 

[HjalmarFan]

Anomalies don't last for a full season.

Yes, they most certainly do. Example A: Bernie Nichols scored 70 goals in 1988-1989. Example B: Brady Anderson hit 50 home runs in 1996. Example C: The 2005 White Sox. Anomalies last for a full season all the time.

But to your point, I think the current malaise of the Blackhawks P.K. is more of an anomaly than last year's success. With their defensemen and with forwards like Toews, Kruger, and Hossa, there is no reason they shouldn't be a top 10 team. I doubt they will climb back that high, but I very much doubt they will finish the season in the bottom 10.

From my perspective, the penalty kill largely depends on which versions of Keith and Seabrook take the ice. Those two players are huge variables that can make the P.K. as good or as bad as any in hockey.

 

[HjalmarFan]

Seriously. What are we 15% lower this year. Bobby Orr in his prime might make half the difference up. Frolik? Unless he's a pk demigod his loss isn't the issue.

Frolik is a pk demigod (i.e. one of the best penalty killers in hockey), but his loss isn't everything. I think some of the issue is statistical noise, the Hawks percentage will go up even if they don't improve. Their penalty killers are better than their numbers at this point in the season. Limited sample size. Statistical noise. But the loss of Frolik and Bolland has been damaging. Smith and Pirri have been bad replacements until this point. Also, I think Keith and Seabrook have been victimized a lot. If somebody can show me numbers showing that Hjalmarsson and Oduya have been just as ineffective, I'll admit I'm wrong, but my perception is that Keith and Seabrook have been off on the penalty kill.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Frolik is a pk demigod (i.e. one of the best penalty killers in hockey), but his loss isn't everything. I think some of the issue is statistical noise, the Hawks percentage will go up even if they don't improve. Their penalty killers are better than their numbers at this point in the season. Limited sample size. Statistical noise. But the loss of Frolik and Bolland has been damaging. Smith and Pirri have been bad replacements until this point. Also, I think Keith and Seabrook have been victimized a lot. If somebody can show me numbers showing that Hjalmarsson and Oduya have been just as ineffective, I'll admit I'm wrong, but my perception is that Keith and Seabrook have been off on the penalty kill.

yet doesn't PK for the Jets?

 

[BobbyJet]

The PK has gotten markedly better since Zus was added to it. Granted, it's not a viable long-term solution when the team SHOULD be trying to keep him as fresh as possible for the playoffs (assuming they don't go wit Pirri at number 2, which I would bet good money Q is not going to do in the playoffs), but to say he can't is a little misleading.

Granted, the PK has improved since the early season .... and Zus is quite skilled at playing within his limitations, and can be effective at the dot as well, but we need more speed to pressure ops. Sitting back, leaving the points open, then not tying up ops forwards around the blue paint has been our recipe for one of the worst PK's in the NHL.

Though always important, to try and blame it on our goaltending is a cop out. CC hasn't suddenly transformed into a reflex-type goalie. Stopping deflected pucks is not his strength unless the puck hits him.

 

[hisgirlfriday]

I just realized that this will be the third game in a row we play a former Versteeg team. That's kind of weird.

 

[BobbyJet]

yet doesn't PK for the Jets?

I have got to give Frolik credit. He was frustrating to watch in his early Hawk days, yet still did what he had to do to be a regular in the Hawks line-up. Now Jets are using him in a more offensive role similar to what he was in his early career, and he seems to have adapted well again. If his offense dries up playing for the Jets, I won't be surprised to see him in more of a checking role, including PK duties. Coaches love players like that.

 

[LandofLincoln*]

I'd take Versteeg over Frolik a million times playing in our lineup.

It is a fair comparison since the cap hit is 2.2m for each player.

I've always looked at Versteeg as an over achiever in part, because he was a 134th overall pick that at one point was traded for a 1st and 3rd rounder. Versteeg as a "Florida bust" was traded for a developed 1st rounder Olsen, and a developed 2nd rounder Hayes.

Michael Frolik was a 10th overall pick. What did we get for him from Winnepeg? We got a 74th and a 134th round pick.

Frolik will be a 20G player this year most likely. Versteeg probably will be too. Easy decision for me even if Versteeg was getting 3m I think I would want him over Frolik.

I would think out of 30 teams twenty would take Versteeg and 10 would take Frolik. Versteeg has to be in the right situation to succeed. Michael Frolik is going to succeed in a scoring or non scoring roll.

Differences between Frolik & Versteeg
I think Frolik is better with non elite players because he raises his game to be counted on. Versteeg needs to play with elite players, because he blends in. Versteeg playing with bust outs lowers his game. Frolik playing with bustouts raises his game.

 

[BobbyJet]

Versteeg has to be in the right situation to succeed. Michael Frolik is going to succeed in a scoring or non scoring roll..

This sums it up perfectly. Every team is different and has different needs. The question is: who would be more valuable to the Hawks right now? Who would be more valuable in the PO's? I'd choose Frolik in the RS, but KV could surprise in the PO's. It still looks like a good gamble by Stan.

 

[CPHawksFan]

This sums it up perfectly. Every team is different and has different needs. The question is: who would be more valuable to the Hawks right now? Who would be more valuable in the PO's? I'd choose Frolik in the RS, but KV could surprise in the PO's. It still looks like a good gamble by Stan.

I don't even think Versteeg at $2.2 M is a gamble...it's almost a no-brainer. His cap hit is lower now than it was in 2010.

 

[zac]

I'd rather have Frolik, just because I think Versteeg is a luxury that we really don't need. This team is going to score a ton of goals with or without Kris, but Frolik would be a welcome addition to the PK. I dont' think he'd fix it (our other forwards would have to get with the program), but he seems to be the player that was either smart enough not to listen to our idiotic braintrust, or the one who realized you have to apply constant pressure on his own. I think Frolik's effort is infectious, and although the line wouldn't be overtly physical I would LOVE a 4th line of Frolik, Kruger, and Smith (although with Frolik Smith sadly wouldn't be on the team).

If this team CAN somehow figure out the PK inefficiency (the answer is obvious, the braintrust just needs to harp on that change), then Versteeg is likely the better option to go with as our 4th line is still pretty good without him.

I miss watching Frolik though. He was the ONLY, and I mean the ONLY player who always looked like he was giving 110% regardless of the score or circumstance. Wish he was a Hawk forever, but I understand why Stan made that move. But if he hadn't erred and resigned Bickell he'd still be here.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

For discussion sake I'd take both over Bickell. Just saying.