Sportsnet: Friedman: "You can see he's unhappy, and you can see he and Dubas have different philosophies"

[ToneDog]

I side with Babcock on this. Not that you don't need skill, because of course you do, but you also need balance within the lineup and a couple of bodies who can play strong on the puck and raise everyones elses game, especially on the backend.

If nobody is hitting, everybody is backing down from puck battles, the guy beside you on the bench doesn't feel a need to do anything differently. If you have guys who find their balls and are willing to give it all to win, then everyone else plays 3 inches taller and decides "I'm not going to be the odd man out".

This is where the Boston series will be a great barometer. Some guys elevate their game and commitment come playoffs. Look at Bostons top line, gritty, fearless guys. This isn't about meatheads, this is about the will to win. I've seen Matthews bring it possibly more than any of the other skill guys, he is a big body and I'd love to see him keep playing with edge this post season. Kadri HAS to be that guy in the playoffs. I'm praying he is the same guy as he was in past post seasons (outside of the poorly timed suspension).

Anybody who has played sports knows that if you feel the other team or opponent in an individual sport is "game", you know you're going to be worn down and pay a price. You can get put off your game in a more defensive mode if your belief is the other guys are going through the wall for the win.

If the Leafs bring what they brought in the 3rd period last game against the Habs, this team has a legitimate shot at the Cup. The skill is there, I sometimes shake my head at how talented some of these guys are, but they need to have the commitment and will to win.

Team has to be willing to play outside their comfort level. MacLean believes they will in the playoffs. I tend to agree.

Bruins will come at them like the Blues did early. If we can weather the storm, we should be in good shape. Hopefully playing physically takes some starch out of them as the series goes on and we can take advantage with our speed and skill.

 

[Bomber0104]

It's fairly obvious he has problems with skilled players.

Every Team Canada had a whole team of skilled players.

Which did he have a problem with?

Again, I already he pointed out he's overplayed Brown/Marleau/Kadri all year.

So Babcock is a problem because he's giving too many minutes to bottom six players.

This is the crux of your argument...

He'd be playing Komarov and other "gritty vets" if they were here too.

Yep and that's precisely what this team is missing in case you haven't noticed.

It's why we lose games.

Not because of Connor Brown.

He needs to adapt to the new NHL, which is based on skill and not all grit.

It always has been a game of skill and grit.

This "New NHL" is a figment of your imagination.

Tampa Bay, the model franchise of the league, grinded the hell out of last game and absolutely destroyed us on the board as a result.

Not because of Marleau getting 2nd PP time lol

Also try to argue on facts and not ad hominem me plz.

Sorry. I'll stick to the ridiculous content your bloviating on about from now on.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Don't really buy this, they have differences but differences are good. I think the biggest sticking point they have is the playing the defense on their offside. Dubas wants the best player and Babock wants the best fit.

 

[Bomber0104]

No ****, he's been in the league for how long?

What was Babcock before he won his cup? Everybody's gotta start somewhere. Your vague reasoning adds nothing to the thread.

My reasoning is that Dubas should take a seat, peel his eyes away from the blogosphere and learn something from actual hockey people who have reached the pinnacles of success.

Other than Brock University and the internet, who actually mentored this guy about the game?

Do we even know?

All I know is that his family had ties with the Greyhounds and he started as a stick boy there.

 

[Daisy Jane]

My reasoning is that Dubas should take a seat, peel his eyes away from the blogosphere and learn something from actual hockey people who have reached the pinnacles of success.

Other than Brock University and the internet, who actually mentored this guy about the game?

Do we even know?

All I know is that his family had ties with the Greyhounds and he started as a stick boy there.

Lou Lamoriello for 3 years?

 

[unitedstars87]

I dont really buy this either. Dubas probably realizes the value of "grit", but he wants it in a useful player. Leafs have been linked to Anderson and Ferland, two players who have an edge to their game but actually bring value elsewhere. I mean, Dubas literally acquired Muzzin who's another guy that fits into that mold. I think the difference is Babcock wants a Komarov or Polak whereas Dubas doesnt.

This is spot on.

 

[93LEAFS]

They've been at each other's throats for awhile. It's pretty clear the media game is being played. Mirtle's article earlier this week typifies it. We'll promote Keefe and replicate a 2nd tier OHL franchise that couldn't make the memorial cup. Exactly what we did with our Ontario scouting staff.

 

[hockeynorth]

My reasoning is that Dubas should take a seat, peel his eyes away from the blogosphere and learn something from actual hockey people who have reached the pinnacles of success.

Other than Brock University and the internet, who actually mentored this guy about the game?

Do we even know?

All I know is that his family had ties with the Greyhounds and he started as a stick boy there.

This isn't right. Kyle Dubas was never a blogger type, he was deep into hockey with the greyhounds from a very young age and was mentored by many in that organization. One he turned into a model franchise in the O

 

[Bomber0104]

Lou Lamoriello for 3 years?

I've read here that Dubas was never really tight with Lou and that he was more or less assigned to run the Marlies.

Which would make sense.

 

[MyBudJT]

On the 31 thoughts podcast, Friedman talked further about the Dubas/Babcock stuff.

Said for personal reasons, he finds it hard to criticize Babcock, but you can see he's unhappy and that he and Dubas have different philosophies. And while different philosophies can be a good thing, it's creating disagreements that is creating cracks.

Marek asked on a scale of 1-10, how serious is this getting, Friedman didn't really answer but says it is creeping up every day

Friedman says Dubas wants to win a certain way, and Babcock may not believe in it. Dubas believes the premium is skill, and no matter how minimal the improvement is, if there is an improvement on a skill basis, they are going to do it, even if it costs "grit" and "toughness" or a role player. (See, Petan for Lindholm)

Friedman said he asked Babcock about going to the Finals in 2003 with 6 LHD with the Ducks, and Babcock said it's too fast of a game now to expect players to play their offside.

Friedman said while Babcock doesn't believe in fighting necessarily, he still believes in grinding other players down, while Dubas thinks skill trumps everything.

Friedman says that Babcock, he says it a lot that you only have so many chances, and you can tell, that, for whatever reason, maybe it's the Sheldon Keefe extension coming, that even if there is 4 years left on his deal, that Babcock isn't sure how much shelf life he has left, which is why he's been calling out the composition of the team lately, trying to change the tone, essentially being political, so if things go south, it's a composition issue, not a coaching issue.

Friedman ended things by saying that since the Tavares-Islanders game, things have been very tense, and it's a question worth asking of whether a separation may happen.

There is a lot of inconsistencies in Friedman's statements...

1) How has Babcock looked unhappy?
2) The fact he wasn't willing to put a number on a scale on how large an issue this is tells me it's not an issue at all.
3) I don't believe Dubas just values skill in the context Friedman is claiming. Dubas has sought out Muzzin and guys like Marchment and Clune on the Marlies... He also shipped out Lievo when we had less skilled options on the roster.

4) in no way has Babcock tried to deflect blame nor publically call Dubas out on the composition of the team.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

If Babcock is wrong, so is the league. There's a reason nobody is grabbing all these offensive midgets. Although there could be a good case in saying these small skilled players are good value for the buck if nobody else wants them, which in a salary cap world could be important. All I know is everyone wanted Hyman off Matthews line, and now Matthews is doing more harm then good to the team without any grit on his line. Simply put, think every successful line I've ever seen has had a player with grit+, passing+, scoring+. Hyman, Marner, Tavares. +15 to +23. With Ennis as the average player on this team in hits per games played, this team is hopeless.

you say that like offensive midgets aren't dominating the league, but they are. Matthews is having a down year because he lost Nylander to play with Marleau and Kapanen, not because of Hyman. Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander has been the Leafs' best line since it was assembled

 

[Trapper]

Team has to be willing to play outside their comfort level. MacLean believes they will in the playoffs. I tend to agree.

Bruins will come at them like the Blues did early. If we can weather the storm, we should be in good shape. Hopefully playing physically takes some starch out of them as the series goes on and we can take advantage with our speed and skill.

Skill has to come with something though.
Nobody ever says we just have to outskill them to win.
It’s skill + speed,aggression,forecheck,backcheck,etc.

Which is why skill alone does not trump all.

 

[Bomber0104]

They've been at each other's throats for awhile. It's pretty clear the media game is being played. Mirtle's article earlier this week typifies it. We'll promote Keefe and replicate a 2nd tier OHL franchise that couldn't make the memorial cup. Exactly what we did with our Ontario scouting staff.

Seems odd that the "old boys club" of hockey is constantly vilified but here we have Dubas trying to carve out one of his own.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Team has to be willing to play outside their comfort level. MacLean believes they will in the playoffs. I tend to agree.

Bruins will come at them like the Blues did early. If we can weather the storm, we should be in good shape. Hopefully playing physically takes some starch out of them as the series goes on and we can take advantage with our speed and skill.

The last two heartbreak series losses the Leafs should have won. So I tend to agree with you. They seem to like succeeding for one another with a healthy dose of competitive spirit among them. This should translate to a great series against the Bruins.

 

[IPS]

I've read here that Dubas was never really tight with Lou and that he was more or less assigned to run the Marlies.

Which would make sense.

Where'd you read that? Lou Lam absolutely played a key role in showing Dubas how to run the show.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

They've been at each other's throats for awhile. It's pretty clear the media game is being played. Mirtle's article earlier this week typifies it. We'll promote Keefe and replicate a 2nd tier OHL franchise that couldn't make the memorial cup. Exactly what we did with our Ontario scouting staff.

are you trying to say Dubas is ruining the team? also, Dubas' scouting with Sandin and Hollowell looks better than anything Hunter has done

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I think if it comes down to it, Babcock is gone. He did not have any more success under Lou, and Lou did things Babcock's way. He is out of excuses, besides pointing fingers at Dubas or his players, and no matter what, Babcock is not going to be here in 5 years anyways.

Dubas has had more success, is smart and in-line with the way the NHL is going (and is easily willing to adapt his strategies accordingly), and has a long term future with this team. We have Keefe lined up and pretty much ready to take over an NHL job right now, while nobody on our team is really ready for a GM job, and there are not really any more attractive options out there (if we go based on the guys Edmonton is interviewing anyways). He still has some things to learn, especially when it comes to "promises", but he's been here for a year and the best fans and media can hold against him are a bunch of hot takes on some of his moves which are a lot better than people make them out to be.

So yeah, I think pretty much anyone would say Babcock is on the short-end of the stick on this one.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I've read here that Dubas was never really tight with Lou and that he was more or less assigned to run the Marlies.

Which would make sense.

he (Dubas) said he and Lou are very close and still talk. so i dunno.

 

[93LEAFS]

are you trying to say Dubas is ruining the team? also, Dubas' scouting with Sandin and Hollowell looks better than anything Hunter has done

I’m trying to say I’m very skeptical of the path he has chosen and think he should branch out of the SSM bubble. Especially with who he hired.

Hollowell is an overager in the OHL. He’s a nothing prospect. Sandin is nice, but so was Dermott, Bracco and Grundstron. SDA and Durzi were terrible picks.

I’d say Marner over Hanifin is a much bigger thing than Sandin at this point.

 

[Crysis]

If Dubas think skill trumps everything he’s wrong IMO.
That’s very one dimensional thinking.
I hope that’s not his end all thinking.

Life isn’t just one way.
But he has the rope now. He will either use it to tie it all together nicely or hang himself with it.

The Marlies had some muscle on it last year.

 

[Atomos2]

Ideally you'd want some sort of combination of the two philosophies. I do think its really hard to go into an intense and long playoff run with skill as your main driver. Especially when facing grittier teams like the Bruins. Leafs have undeniable skill going so if they could make it work in the show, that would be an outstanding series to watch.

 

[93LEAFS]

Where'd you read that? Lou Lam absolutely played a key role in showing Dubas how to run the show.

They disliked each other and Dubas was relegated to staying in his Marlies corner.

 

[hector morrison]

Babcock's philosophy has won him a Cup and Olympic Golds.

Dubas' philosophy has won him an AHL title.

Tough call here.

The Detoit team had arguably the best forward and D man in the game...The international victories were plainly stacked with the most skilled players they could find...Babcock loses the
'talent argument' hands down. None of that hardware is or was because of Babcock !

 

[MyBudJT]

I like the story but I hate Elliot Friedman.


Old dinosaur Carlyle won a cup with his philosophy too.

Folks who reference past success without context always have an agenda to push.

Except for Babcock has one of the best win percentages (both season and playoffs) of all active coaches in the NHL...

They've been at each other's throats for awhile. It's pretty clear the media game is being played. Mirtle's article earlier this week typifies it. We'll promote Keefe and replicate a 2nd tier OHL franchise that couldn't make the memorial cup. Exactly what we did with our Ontario scouting staff.

They haven't been at each other's throats though... It's just a media driven storyline that has little merrit

 

[4thline]

In a perfect world we have Dubas philosophy players playing Dubas philosophy hockey with the puck and Babcock without it. In today's game grit is a mentality, not an attribute. Your 4thline can't win a puck battle when your 1st line is on the ice, your #6 dman can't clear the crease for your top pair