Confirmed with Link: Fox to NYR for 2019 2nd, 2020 2nd (30 gp)

[AD Skinner]

Whatev. Of the three teams involved in this trade tree, the Canes are the only ones still playing and the ones with the most assets. Nothing worth getting upset over, even if this guy becomes Brain Leetch.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Dundon has done more for this franchise in 18 months than Karmanos did in 23 years.

Moving them from Hartford cancels out the Stanley Cup. Dont @ me.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Like, this take is so wrong, I don't even know where to begin.

But hey, let's start at the beginning:

"It is/was poor asset management and is shortsighted for a franchise that needs to play at the bottom of the cap."

You're basically arguing against yourself in this single sentence. Even if what you're saying is true -- that we're destined to play at the bottom of the cap -- you do realize that stockpiling younger cheaper assets is basically the only good way of doing that, right? You lock in the young assets that you think are worth the value (Pesce, Slavin, Terevainen) and you recycle the ones that you don't think are worth the value (Skinner, Lindholm, Hanifin, Fox). In the process, you pick up as much young talent as you can. More options == more option value.

But you do realize that further we go in the playoffs, the more money the team makes, right? The team is raking in gobs of cash right now. They've guaranteed themselves at least two more sellouts at inflated prices, and if they make it through, they guarantee themselves two more sellouts at even more inflated prices. Not only that, but they're locking in season ticket holders right now.

"Then all we will be left with is Zac Dalpe x2."

Or Sebastian Aho x2. Or Justin Faulk x2. Or Brock McGinn x2.

"But who cares? I'm betting Dundon will have skull fu**ed our franchise for a few dollars by that time"

It's fascinating to me how people are sticking to their "Dundon doesn't give a **** and just wants to screw us all out of our money" take at this point, when every shred of evidence at present indicates the opposite. But you keep ****ing that chicken.

Dude, don't you have a thread to start?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

But you do realize that further we go in the playoffs, the more money the team makes, right? The team is raking in gobs of cash right now. They've guaranteed themselves at least two more sellouts at inflated prices, and if they make it through, they guarantee themselves two more sellouts at even more inflated prices. Not only that, but they're locking in season ticket holders right now.

AKshually...

...we've guaranteed ourselves at least three more sellouts - we either make it to the next round or this series goes to 6 - or both!

 

[bleedgreen]

Fox was always going to end up in NYR. Every single day that becomes clearer. Any ill will anyone feels towards Fox should be directed at Don Waddell and his "99.9% chance he is signed" statement. I spent dozens of hours following Fox this year so I'm guilty of being upset as well. But in hindsight (and foresight if we were being honest with ourselves) there always was zero chance Fox would sign with the Canes.

Boom. I have no ill will against the kid at all. He followed the script from day one. The same one Vesey followed. There was a reason the guy was available and most Calgary fans were telling us from day one he wouldn’t sign and would go
play for the Rangers. How did they know this and we not know it? Why did we think anything would be different? It seemed like we didn’t even talk to the kid until after the trade, and then took a kid reading the script at 99%?

Look I’m glad we got value out of this, and it’s a decent save of a crap situation but the fact we traded such players for such questionable circumstances is a bad look for us. Especially at the time when we swore we weren’t doing change for the sake of change. Two major pieces were uncontrolled and it seems we didn’t have a handle on either one at any point. The price of Ferland should never have been a surprise and neither should have any of this. It looks like change for the sake of change now. It looks like we didn’t do the homework or didn’t care.

 

[Svechhammer]

Getting potentially 2 2nd rounders out of this is a win as far as I'm concerned. Our ability to spot and acquire talent in the second round in recent years has been pretty impressive, so to have multiple darts per year over the next couple should be pretty good for us. Especially for a kid who made it very clear he would not play here.

And you know what, seeing where we are now, and seeing we're here based on our defensive play, if he doesn't want to be a part of this, that's speaks more to the player we could expect here than anything. He wants the world given to him, and doesn't want to have to work for his place. That doesn't fit with the Brindy 'Work Your Ass Off Every Night" mindset that everyone on this team has adopted. And we're better off focusing on the people who do have that mindset.


Anyway, we have a game tonight. 2 more wins and we're in the Eastern Conference Finals. And he doesn't want to be a part of it. Bye Felicia.

 

[Identity404]

You're basically arguing against yourself in this single sentence. Even if what you're saying is true -- that we're destined to play at the bottom of the cap -- you do realize that stockpiling younger cheaper assets is basically the only good way of doing that, right? You lock in the young assets that you think are worth the value (Pesce, Slavin, Terevainen) and you recycle the ones that you don't think are worth the value (Skinner, Lindholm, Hanifin, Fox). In the process, you pick up as much young talent as you can. More options == more option value.

Yes, that was my point. Lindholm/Hanifin are young cost controlled assets that we need at the bottom of the cap to succeed... outside of Fox we traded them for an expiring contract and Hamilton who is 3 years from UFA...You completely misunderstood what i was saying.

It's fascinating to me how people are sticking to their "Dundon doesn't give a **** and just wants to screw us all out of our money" take at this point, when every shred of evidence at present indicates the opposite. But you keep ****ing that chicken.

Looking at Dundon's previous business ventures has shown me that he is pretty ruthless and the all mighty dollar is most important. Look no further to the recent AAF debacle.

Please show me all this evidence at present that involves him opening his wallet.

We are at the bottom of the league in salary, and by all accounts hockey operations. Excuse me for continuing to be skeptical. I think all of your evidence will either be lip service or probably doesn't cost him a dime.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Yes, that was my point. Lindholm/Hanifin are young cost controlled assets that we need at the bottom of the cap to succeed... outside of Fox we traded them for an expiring contract and Hamilton who is 3 years from UFA...You completely misunderstood what i was saying.

No, I understood what you *think* you were saying. What *I'm* saying is that the org clearly decided that Lindholm/Hanifin were not assets *worth* locking up long term. Just because an asset is young and cost-controlled doesn't mean they're a *good* asset for who you are and what you're trying to do. They're already the youngest team in the league by a wide margin. They used those two assets to build both now *and* in the future.

Looking at Dundon's previous business ventures has shown me that he is pretty ruthless and the all mighty dollar is most important. Look no further to the recent AAF debacle.

Won't argue that point. I have no illusions about who Dundon is. But let's be super duper honest here: every team you love and root for is being funded by a super-villain who made his money by f***ing over a lot of people. There are no nice billionaires. If you can't accept that reality, you may as well give up on pro sports (and even big-time college sports).

Please show me all this evidence at present that involves him opening his wallet.

Literally go to any rink in town. You'll see more branding in a single one of them than in every rink in the Triangle combined in the past twenty years.

I think you don't understand the difference between *spending* money and *investing* money. The org is choosing what to invest their money in.

Dundon bet that he could run a pro sports team differently than others did. So far, he's been right.

We are at the bottom of the league in salary, and by all accounts hockey operations...

...and are now 2 wins from the Eastern Conference Finals.

Results matter. In sports, they're the only thing that matter.

Excuse me for continuing to be skeptical. I think all of your evidence will either be lip service or probably doesn't cost him a dime.

You can be as skeptical as you like. That's your right. But if you're going to argue the point, I'm going to point out where you're wrong.

 

[Roboturner913]

Please show me all this evidence at present that involves him opening his wallet..

LOL, you serious? He just sank big money into arena and locker room upgrades and they've spent more on PR/advertising/fan experience in one year than PK spent his entire tenure combined.

As far as roster/payroll, there's no evidence the payroll is low just for the sake of being cheap. If we were not in the second round with a 2-0 series lead you might have at least half a leg to stand on with that argument.

Being more efficient with money is not "cheaping out." It's just the smart thing to do - especially considering he took on $100 million of red ink just to buy the team in the first place.

Dude has been owner for what, 1 year and a couple months and the team has already seen its visibility and on-ice success grow massively. Isn't that exactly what he's supposed to be doing?

 

[Drivebytrucker]

He’s one that’s clearly made two particular players better around him. They fed off him continuing their plays all season. He wouldn’t have reached such heights with us but he obviously would’ve helped. Borderline top 6?!?

Stick to your hot taeks of Ferland’s character.

Who cares about asset management? Wow. There’s a sentence.

He has 91 goals in NHL games.......

 

[Identity404]

LOL, you serious? He just sank big money into arena and locker room upgrades

Umm you mean the Centennial Authority?

 

[MinJaBen]

He just sank big money into arena and locker room upgrades and they've spent more on PR/advertising/fan experience in one year than PK spent his entire tenure combined.

I don’t know the answer, but I’m not sure he spent the money for that vs the Centennial Authority. Do you have a reference that shows he spent it? I am also skeptical of people giving him credit for the score board after it came out that they are going with the HD board instead of the 4K board it was reported he wanted. If he was paying, I don’t see a reason that it is not the 4K board, whereas if the Authority is paying, then that makes some sense.

 

[Identity404]

No, I understood what you *think* you were saying. What *I'm* saying is that the org clearly decided that Lindholm/Hanifin were not assets *worth* locking up long term. Just because an asset is young and cost-controlled doesn't mean they're a *good* asset for who you are and what you're trying to do. They're already the youngest team in the league by a wide margin. They used those two assets to build both now *and* in the future.



Won't argue that point. I have no illusions about who Dundon is. But let's be super duper honest here: every team you love and root for is being funded by a super-villain who made his money by ****ing over a lot of people. There are no nice billionaires. If you can't accept that reality, you may as well give up on pro sports (and even big-time college sports).


Literally go to any rink in town. You'll see more branding in a single one of them than in every rink in the Triangle combined in the past twenty years.

I think you don't understand the difference between *spending* money and *investing* money. The org is choosing what to invest their money in.

Dundon bet that he could run a pro sports team differently than others did. So far, he's been right.



...and are now 2 wins from the Eastern Conference Finals.

Results matter. In sports, they're the only thing that matter.



You can be as skeptical as you like. That's your right. But if you're going to argue the point, I'm going to point out where you're wrong.

I could reply to this but i'm not going to because i'm wrong and you seem to already know what i think.

 

[bleedgreen]

Whatev. Of the three teams involved in this trade tree, the Canes are the only ones still playing and the ones with the most assets. Nothing worth getting upset over, even if this guy becomes Brain Leetch.

I think if we can get the brain leetch to be part of the management hive, we could be onto something.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I could reply to this but i'm not going to because i'm wrong and you seem to already know what i think.

Well, we've spent several posts hashing it out, so yes, I believe I do know what you think. But feel free to keep arguing.

Right now, it's easy and fun to argue the other side, because I can just point to the scoreboard.

 

[A Star is Burns]

For those arguing Fox was always going to sign with NYR, I mean, yeah, probably. But to say it was always going to be that way and he gave every indication it would ignores him saying he'd heard the rumors and they aren't true (Sara Civ tweet and I think other sources at some point), he just wanted to be in the NHL as soon as possible. We were the team that could have made it happen soonest, and he choose to go another way. Now, I have said before, and I stand by it, that I don't have any ill will towards him. He did what he needed to do, and at least he left us in a position to recoup some assets. I certainly won't wish him particularly well outside of playing 30 games next year, but whatevs.

As for Dundon, even if he wasn't directly responsible for some of the good items, he's been responsible for a fair amount, directly or indirectly. Most of it good. I've been in his corner pretty much from the beginning, or worst case willing to wait and see, which for the most part has paid off. As Hank said, I have no delusions of super nice billionaires that hurt nobody along the way to getting their money, so I actually cringe that people feel the need to bring up the way he got his money.

 

[AD Skinner]

I think if we can get the brain leetch to be part of the management hive, we could be onto something.

Hahahaha whoops

 

[Chrispy]

I think if we can get the brain leetch to be part of the management hive, we could be onto something.

I agree, Wrath of Khan + Borg seems like a pretty terrifying front office.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Boom. I have no ill will against the kid at all. He followed the script from day one. The same one Vesey followed. There was a reason the guy was available and most Calgary fans were telling us from day one he wouldn’t sign and would go
play for the Rangers. How did they know this and we not know it? Why did we think anything would be different? It seemed like we didn’t even talk to the kid until after the trade, and then took a kid reading the script at 99%?

Look I’m glad we got value out of this, and it’s a decent save of a crap situation but the fact we traded such players for such questionable circumstances is a bad look for us. Especially at the time when we swore we weren’t doing change for the sake of change. Two major pieces were uncontrolled and it seems we didn’t have a handle on either one at any point. The price of Ferland should never have been a surprise and neither should have any of this. It looks like change for the sake of change now. It looks like we didn’t do the homework or didn’t care.

Why is it not possible that we did care, we did do our homework, and we felt it was worth the risk and did it anyhow? We wanted Hamilton so we could trade Faulk. We didn't want to commit big $$ to two players we weren't convinced were worth it. And we were willing to take our chances with one year of Ferland and the impossible-to-sign Fox.

What if we knew *all* of that and decided it was worth the risk? Why is that not possible?

Yes, it seems odd because Lindholm and Hanifin are under *much* more control, but Lindholm had gotten complacent here and Hanifin was overrated from Day 1. We knew we were giving up some control, but we got better hockey players. We then made a decision to keep Ferland when we could have traded him. Then we made the decision to trade Fox when it became clear he wasn't interested in what we were selling. No bad optics. No questionable circumstances.

We knew what we were getting into and we took a shot. Why is that so hard to believe?

 

[Roboturner913]

Umm you mean the Centennial Authority?

Ask yourself: Regardless of who paid for it, would these upgrades ever have happened if PK was still owner?

I mean, people weren't exactly lining up to buy the Carolina ****ing Hurricanes. The team/org has experienced a damn near 180 degree turnaround since he took over and people are coming to games again. Are we really going to sit around griping about that? Would we like him to sell the team back to PK? Come on now

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Why is it not possible that we did care, we did do our homework, and we felt it was worth the risk and did it anyhow? We wanted Hamilton so we could trade Faulk. We didn't want to commit big $$ to two players we weren't convinced were worth it. And we were willing to take our chances with one year of Ferland and the impossible-to-sign Fox.

What if we knew *all* of that and decided it was worth the risk? Why is that not possible?

Yes, it seems odd because Lindholm and Hanifin are under *much* more control, but Lindholm had gotten complacent here and Hanifin was overrated from Day 1. We knew we were giving up some control, but we got better hockey players. We then made a decision to keep Ferland when we could have traded him. Then we made the decision to trade Fox when it became clear he wasn't interested in what we were selling. No bad optics. No questionable circumstances.

We knew what we were getting into and we took a shot. Why is that so hard to believe?

Because it's what a competent org would do, and we haven't experienced that in a very long time. Easier to believe it was luck.

 

[Roboturner913]

It's more likely the Flames were like "f*** it, he's not going to sign with us anyway so we'll throw him in" and the Canes were like "f*** it, we'll take him, it's not like taking him is gonna hurt us"

That trade did not need balancing by adding Fox at the time it was made. It only looks that way in retrospect because Lindy came out of nowhere with a 78 point season.

 

[NotOpie]

How did they know this and we not know it?

Perhaps we knew he was going to be something of a challenge to sign and as Kev said, we were still willing to take that risk. More likely, however, is the chance that Fox sent all the right signals to us that he was going to sign. Don Waddell gains NOTHING from saying he's 99.9% sure he will sign with us. That would be a huge unforced error without some sort of indication.

It is far more likely that Fox did have every intention of signing with us to burn the quick year off of his ELC, but then saw his career get boosted by another good year at Harvard. Whispers by advisors likely pushed him back into a mindset of leveraging his potential UFA status. All of this is stuff to which he's entitled. However, the rando statements about wanting to get to the NHL sooner and wanting to get his education speak to character issues and dishonesty. The two draft picks will be solid for us.

Yes, it seems odd because Lindholm and Hanifin are under *much* more control, but Lindholm had gotten complacent here and Hanifin was overrated from Day 1.

And this leads to the crux of many of these discussions. We just don't know what went on in the room. What we do know is that Dundon sat in on the exit interviews and could provide a fresh perspective. I don't believe for a second that Hanifin and Lindholm involved in a trade was a financially driven decision. Skinner, however, is likely another story. Like Kev alluded too, Hanifin had never lived up to his hype and draft position....he still hasn't. Lindholm, while picking up his game these last two years prior to the trade would have to also be characterized as slightly disappointing as well (considering his draft position). When we found out that Lindy was going to be more of a challenge to sign given his performance to date, I believe the front office viewed that as a character issue (more me, less team) especially given his end of season performance (1 goal and 10 points in his last 15 games and something like a -5 or -6).

I am of the opinion that these two guys were definitely viewed as guys who loved to win, but didn't necessarily hate to lose. Remember, Roddy called out Lindy one of his last two Summers as somebody who needed to do more work in the off season. To his credit he did work to get stronger, but I think Rod didn't see a concurrent change in attitude. All of this plus Dundon's perspective likely pushed these two guys out the door. And yes, they had value as moveable assets.

Skinner, on the other hand, was likely viewed from the financial perspective. He was a hard worker, didn't like to lose, and by all accounts, was a good guy in the room. But he likely made it known that he was going to go the UFA route at the end of his contract and that didn't sit well w/the front office. Again, it was probably viewed as selfish (whether it should have or not) and not team oriented. So they got whatever they could and sold it (poorly) as a change in culture.

In the end, it has seemingly worked out well. Dougie has done well for us, especially since January and appears to have fit in well with the team. Ferland, despite all the speculation and angst, has helped us get to where we are right now and it isn't inconceivable that he'd reconsider a more value-oriented contract....especially if he contributes to this run. Fox is now 2 pretty valuable draft picks. Best of all we made the playoffs for the first time in a decade. All of this combined makes the transactions more than worthwhile.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Perhaps we knew he was going to be something of a challenge to sign and as Kev said, we were still willing to take that risk. More likely, however, is the chance that Fox sent all the right signals to us that he was going to sign. Don Waddell gains NOTHING from saying he's 99.9% sure he will sign with us. That would be a huge unforced error without some sort of indication.

Waddell gains *one* thing from saying that. I've said this before, but he wasn't talking to us when he said that. He was talking to *Fox*. He wanted Fox to know that we wanted him here. He wanted Fox to know that we weren't going to be bullied into trading him. I don't think Fox ever said or did anything that would make anyone think he wanted to play for anybody but the Rangers. Waddell was trying to change his mind by making it clear that we wanted him here, we traded for him, we intend to sign him, and Carolina wasn't such a bad situation for him. Also, it was here or nowhere.

And 99 times out of 100, he's right. The player eventually signs with the team that has his rights. I knew that comment was fishy when he said it. It went against everything we'd heard to that point. But I think he was playing a game of chicken with the kid, one that is heavily tilted in his favor.

Unfortunately, it didn't work. But in the end, Fox's value *improved* during his time with us, so it's not like we got suckered. Waddell took a chance he could change the kid's mind and when it became obvious he couldn't, he got two second rounders. No bad optics. Homework complete.

 

[bleedgreen]

Hanifin and Lindy weren’t challenges to sign. They both got market deals. They both got almost exactly what we thought they were going to get. In fact I remember thinking they got less than what some of us were speculating they had asked for.