Confirmed with Link: Fox to NYR for 2019 2nd, 2020 2nd (30 gp)

[Sens1Canes2]

I'm sorry, but it just can't be both. He's the same asset. If you get Fox in one trade and flip him in another, it all counts.

Traded a non-asset in Hanifin, too. What? Hanifin was an asset, you (not YOU, Kev) say? Oh. Tell me which defenseman playing in the top six Hanifin is better than. I’ll wait.

 

[Negan4Coach]

Good. I'd laugh if the Canes wind up winning the Cup and then we can dunk on this piece of shit all day long "Enjoy losing at your precious f***ing Madison Square Garden. Maybe the smell of bum piss wafting up from Penn Station will make it sting a little less"

 

[HisIceness]

Alright, I wasn't thrilled to learn that he was traded to a division rival but I'll take the 2nd round pick and the potential 2020 2nd and run with it. I trust this organization with 2nd round picks and they could always flip one into something else if needed.

And, I understand why you guys are upset but he wasn't one of our draft picks so lets pump the brakes a little here. Or not, I don't know.

But all in all, it's done and we can all move on from this.

 

[Roboturner913]

Alright, I wasn't thrilled to learn that he was traded to a division rival but I'll take the 2nd round pick and the potential 2020 2nd and run with it. I trust this organization with 2nd round picks and they could always flip one into something else if needed.

And, I understand why you guys are upset but he wasn't one of our draft picks so lets pump the brakes a little here. Or not, I don't know.

But all in all, it's done and we can all move on from this.

I'm not upset about it in terms of the team at all. Obviously we don't really need him with 7 quality proven NHL d-men and another 3-4 on the way.

Fox just comes off like a selfish, entitled prick. The two picks are a really nice haul in return IMO.

 

[bleedgreen]

I understand what you are saying, but if trading those players was part of a "culture change" then that looks to have impact on both the short term and the long term .

The culture change is pretty massively overrated. All three of those players would fit just fine with the “culture change”. I would offer Lindy would’ve been a perfect fit. We sold relatively high on Hanifin which I like and we weren’t going to pay Skinner, while having limited options to trade him. I think Skinner would’ve fit in fine. I think most of our reasoning behind many of the moves were financial and we just framed it as culture change. Didn’t want to pay Lindy or Skinner. Used Hanifin to get a better defenseman at a not significantly increased price than what Hanifin would sign for. That’s a great idea but it wasn’t culture change. Who trades for Hamilton with “culture change” in mind?


I love the dude for us but he’s hardly Rod’s poster boy for hard work and leadership. Ferland was the culture change in that trade.

 

[bleedgreen]

If you think of the trade as Hanifin for Hamilton, and you don't see that as a 550-foot home run, you're a bit nuts. Hanifin's "ceiling" -- which everybody likes to talk about but he'll never reach -- is two steps below Hamilton.

IMO, if you look at this trade as Hamilton for Lindholm, and Ferland/two high seconds for Hanifin, we win both sides and it's clear we dominated the trade.



Careful, we've thought that before. Many times. Zach Boychuk, Chris Terry and Zac Dalpe would like a word.

Well if you can look at this trade as a dominant win for us than I want two of what you’re having. I can at least see Hank and others reasoning for why we don’t feel bad about it and think we broke even plus had a good season. I don’t agree it makes it all go away but I know I’m in the minority for caring the way I do...and so be it. Everyone has their spin.

 

[bleedgreen]

There were times early (very early) in Cole's career when his feet were faster than his hands/brains too. I don't know that I would ever have called him a natural goal scorer. Even at his best in 2006 I remember there being a lot of "When did this guy get scoring touch?" comments because he hadn't really shown that before.

Foegele is a spaz. It’s ironic he’s one of Rod’s favorites because he’s always making individual moves that lead to turnovers or just don’t work. Until he makes one work and the whole painful process starts all over again.

Having said that. I love him, he’s all heart. You can’t root against him but he’s not the brightest light bulb in terms of game sense.

Cole was always an intelligent player whether he had the individual skills going or not. It’s a tough comparison and a discredit to Cole. It’s not wrong to hope some of that appears in Foegele’s game but it’s very optimistic to think he gets there.

I think he’s at best a 20/20 guy with a more likely 10-15/10-15 output. Which is still needed and appreciated.

 

[bleedgreen]

Who cares about Lindy and Asset Management? He's a boderline Top 6 forward who can produced when placed around extremely talented players (Monahan, Goudreau).

Svech and Aho make people around them better.... That's the type of player we need to build this franchise around.

Lindy was never going to be a franchise player.

He’s one that’s clearly made two particular players better around him. They fed off him continuing their plays all season. He wouldn’t have reached such heights with us but he obviously would’ve helped. Borderline top 6?!?

Stick to your hot taeks of Ferland’s character.

Who cares about asset management? Wow. There’s a sentence.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

The culture change is pretty massively overrated.

OH OKAY

 

[bleedgreen]

OH OKAY

The aspect that it was these three players moving on that changes the culture? Yup. I’ll stand by what I said. All three absolutely could’ve bought in perfectly fine into Rod was selling. Hanifin was the only one I questioned effort on and we upgraded him to a guy that everyone questions the effort on every night. Hamilton is culture change? He’s a better player. Not really a better leader who rah rahs in the locker room.

Culture change came from Rod and the mood change from the old guard management. Not from removing Lindy.

 

[Roboturner913]

The aspect that it was these three players moving on that changes the culture? Yup. I’ll stand by what I said. All three absolutely could’ve bought in perfectly fine into Rod was selling. Hanifin was the only one I questioned effort on and we upgraded him to a guy that everyone questions the effort on every night. Hamilton is culture change? He’s a better player. Not really a better leader who rah rahs in the locker room.

Culture change came from Rod and the mood change from the old guard management. Not from removing Lindy.

May not have anything to do with the players as individuals so much as shaking up the room. Kind of like pulling the goalie isn't necessarily an indictment of the goalie, or putting in the backup QB. Just a needed shakeup. It's not hard to argue that we needed one.

And I liked Lindy. A lot in fact. I thought he was well on his way to being a another Jordan Staal type lockdown defensive 40 point center.

 

[bleedgreen]

May not have anything to do with the players as individuals so much as shaking up the room. Kind of like pulling the goalie isn't necessarily an indictment of the goalie, or putting in the backup QB. Just a needed shakeup. It's hard to argue that we needed one.

And I liked Lindy. A lot in fact. I thought he was well on his way to being a another Jordan Staal type lockdown defensive 40 point center.

And that’s my point. We point to the players moved out as the culture change, but that just doesn’t add up. Change in general was the “culture change”. As you say just shaking up the room. To me it was that, and just having a completely different voice that was the voice the guys wanted. Bringing in Marty and making sure Foegele had a spot. Wallmark as a defensive minded third center instead of Ryan as an offensive one.

Saying we’re a better team without the guys we had is pretty comical. That wasn’t the change. Honestly the goalies were the biggest change alongside with the shake up in mentality that came from the coach down. All the amazing never say die attitudes wouldn’t have mattered without someone making a f***ing save.

 

[Vagrant]

rod wants players on his team that hate losing and not players that just enjoy winning. the theme of all the players we jettisoned seems to have been with that concept in mind. the concept of losing is intolerable to justin williams. it's intolerable to a lot of guys in our room now where it wasn't in years past. i think they identified faulk as one of those players and were trying to trade him too, but nothing made more sense than keeping him. guys like lindholm, skinner, and hanifin always seemed somewhat ambivalent about losing. partially because we exposed them to so much of it, partly because they're just not motivated by the same things. it's not entirely their fault when we failed to put a winner around them, but those individuals are not winning hockey players in my mind. that may sound harsh, but it is what it is.

 

[bleedgreen]

rod wants players on his team that hate losing and not players that just enjoy winning. the theme of all the players we jettisoned seems to have been with that concept in mind. the concept of losing is intolerable to justin williams. it's intolerable to a lot of guys in our room now where it wasn't in years past. i think they identified faulk as one of those players and were trying to trade him too, but nothing made more sense than keeping him. guys like lindholm, skinner, and hanifin always seemed somewhat ambivalent about losing. partially because we exposed them to so much of it, partly because they're just not motivated by the same things. it's not entirely their fault when we failed to put a winner around them, but those individuals are not winning hockey players in my mind. that may sound harsh, but it is what it is.

I don’t fully agree but I’m not going to fight the concept that the room accepted losing in the end. I would just point out the existence of Jordan Staal. Who is arguably the most ambivalent player we’ve had over the last few years. He clearly accepted losing. He wasn’t jettisoned, just the players who were becoming FA’s and decisions had to be made about them. Faulk and Staal shouldve been shot in a cannon to the moon if we weren’t allowing those who accepted losing.

We took the most likely guys to move....the guys we had to pay....moved them all for whatever we could get and branded them as the problem which was just easy and convenient. I mean it’s working this year so on some level justified.

I do pretty firmly believe goaltending is what turned this tide. This year’s goaltending would’ve had last years team in the playoffs and maybe many of the changes never happen.

 

[Roboturner913]

Obviously we'll never know if keeping Lindholm/Hanifin/Skinner would've ended up with the same team we have now. Obviously we wouldn't have Hamilton or Ferland. Certainly Hamilton's play was a huge part in even getting to the playoffs.

I suspect that at the very least we would have struggled to figure out how to integrate Skinner into the lineup when he's not ever shown the ability or inclination to play a blue collar style of offense. That sure looks like a square peg/round hole situation now, even moreso than it did the last half of the previous season. That's not even a knock against Skinner, style difference doesn't mean he's a bad/selfish player, it just means you don't know quite what to do with him given the absence of other guys like him.

But we'll never know for sure either way

 

[bleedgreen]

I think we see Skinner different. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a harder worker in the offensive zone. That guy flat out outworked defenseman and came up with pucks I’ve never seen a guy steal. He’s lethal. His last year he did take a step back in that aspect. I think it’s making assumptions to say it was attitude. He’s never lacked a work ethic. He just didn’t work smart in his own end was an awful puck management guy from ten ft inside his zone to the far blue line. He needed a center to carry it there. That’s why it worked with Ryan and Rask during the times it did. They carried it through that ice and gave it back to him where he could do damage.

He needed some direction. No doubt. I think he would’ve been receptive though.

To me he is only gone because of the contract. We tagged him with the rest on his way out. Makes a great story.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I think we see Skinner different. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a harder worker in the offensive zone. That guy flat out outworked defenseman and came up with pucks I’ve never seen a guy steal. He’s lethal. His last year he did take a step back in that aspect. I think it’s making assumptions to say it was attitude. He’s never lacked a work ethic. He just didn’t work smart in his own end was an awful puck management guy from ten ft inside his zone to the far blue line. He needed a center to carry it there. That’s why it worked with Ryan and Rask during the times it did. They carried it through that ice and gave it back to him where he could do damage.

He needed some direction. No doubt. I think he would’ve been receptive though.

To me he is only gone because of the contract. We tagged him with the rest on his way out. Makes a great story.

You gotta admit, Skinner was getting a little Eric Staal-y in his last few years. He was always yappy, but he upped the ante with the lazy backcheck, the one-knee-on-the-Ice frustration look, and the unfortunate recurring petulant attitude. Yeah losing sucks but try being a leader, not a whiner.

But that’s me.

 

[Identity404]

I've made peace with the trade.

It is/was poor asset management and is shortsighted for a franchise that needs to play at the bottom of the cap. I'm sure in a few years we will be sold some narrative about Hamilton not fitting our culture so we don't feel bad about not paying him. Then all we will be left with is Zac Dalpe x2. But who cares? I'm betting Dundon will have skull fu**ed our franchise for a few dollars by that time.

The team did need a locker room shakeup. Lindholm and Hanifin we're not part of the culture problem, but shipping some familiar faces out and bringing a ton of new ones helped. I don't think we are where we are this season without that. So that is a win.

I'm thinking we probably had every intention of resigning both of them until we got to the table and didn't like what they were asking for. At that point they were just earmarked to be the posterboys of the locker room shakeup.

At the end of the day the only thing I ever liked about Hanifin was his draft position and thinking about the player he may one day become. Maybe he will get there, but I doubt it. Losing Lindolm sucks, but Dougie is pretty good at hockey too. F**k Adam Fox. That is all.

 

[Roboturner913]

I think it’s making assumptions to say it was attitude. He’s never lacked a work ethic.

I didn't say anything about his attitude nor his work ethic. I was merely talking about his style of play. He was never a guy that would just stick to the basics offensively even when that was the wiser choice. And I don't think that's about him having a bad attitude or being uncoachable. It just is who he is, and you take the bad with the good.

In a different locker room, different situation with a couple of like-minded teammates I think he could've been bonkers. He was good enough to score 40 goals this year after all, playing with a team that emphasized an up-tempo puck carrying style and razzle dazzle. That wasn't us and it was never going to be.

 

[emptyNedder]

Haven't seen it mentioned. For all those wishing Fox ill and throwing words like entitled and selfish at him--what is the difference from Maenalanen? Who seems to be a player we all respect and are glad to have.

 

[Justshootmore]

Honestly, I don't understand people who wish him ill etc.. He never claimed that he wants to play for us, and it is his right to not sign with us. In my opinion, he did nothing wrong. Owning rights doesn't mean owning a player.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Haven't seen it mentioned. For all those wishing Fox ill and throwing words like entitled and selfish at him--what is the difference from Maenalanen? Who seems to be a player we all respect and are glad to have.

Nashville chose not to sign him so he became a ufa. He then played a few more years in Finland before signing with us. Not at all comparable.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

I am very glad he is staying in division.

 

[GoldiFox]

Fox was always going to end up in NYR. Every single day that becomes clearer. Any ill will anyone feels towards Fox should be directed at Don Waddell and his "99.9% chance he is signed" statement. I spent dozens of hours following Fox this year so I'm guilty of being upset as well. But in hindsight (and foresight if we were being honest with ourselves) there always was zero chance Fox would sign with the Canes.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

It is/was poor asset management and is shortsighted for a franchise that needs to play at the bottom of the cap. I'm sure in a few years we will be sold some narrative about Hamilton not fitting our culture so we don't feel bad about not paying him. Then all we will be left with is Zac Dalpe x2. But who cares? I'm betting Dundon will have skull fu**ed our franchise for a few dollars by that time

Like, this take is so wrong, I don't even know where to begin.

But hey, let's start at the beginning:

"It is/was poor asset management and is shortsighted for a franchise that needs to play at the bottom of the cap."

You're basically arguing against yourself in this single sentence. Even if what you're saying is true -- that we're destined to play at the bottom of the cap -- you do realize that stockpiling younger cheaper assets is basically the only good way of doing that, right? You lock in the young assets that you think are worth the value (Pesce, Slavin, Terevainen) and you recycle the ones that you don't think are worth the value (Skinner, Lindholm, Hanifin, Fox). In the process, you pick up as much young talent as you can. More options == more option value.

But you do realize that further we go in the playoffs, the more money the team makes, right? The team is raking in gobs of cash right now. They've guaranteed themselves at least two more sellouts at inflated prices, and if they make it through, they guarantee themselves two more sellouts at even more inflated prices. Not only that, but they're locking in season ticket holders right now.

"Then all we will be left with is Zac Dalpe x2."

Or Sebastian Aho x2. Or Justin Faulk x2. Or Brock McGinn x2.

"But who cares? I'm betting Dundon will have skull fu**ed our franchise for a few dollars by that time"

It's fascinating to me how people are sticking to their "Dundon doesn't give a shit and just wants to screw us all out of our money" take at this point, when every shred of evidence at present indicates the opposite. But you keep f***ing that chicken.