Forslund contract negotiations

[Svechhammer]

Why not both? If TD is as wealthy as the quoted $2b then shelling out some cash for a play by play guy who is arguably the best in the business should not be a problem. Especially for a one year deal that could have been negotiated in good faith and then renegotiated as times got better.

I'm not a billionaire but did take a business with 2 other owners from $2 million to $40+ million in sales in 9 years before we sold it. Though I can't say I wouldn't run a hockey team or anything else into the ground either.

I mean at this point it just sounds like you hate Dundon and are looking for any reason to trash him, and absolutely nothing will change your mind about it.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Because it is, from a business standpoint, a waste of money.

If he can spend $100K to retain Forslund or $100K on a better goalie, which of those do you really want?

Both. Like I said, if he is worth 2b then 100k one year ain't gonna kill him and it would mean much good will. Not arguing with you on the business standpoint. That is who he is.

And to tell you the truth, I'd rather have Forslund. A goalie, especially, can go to hell in a heartbeat. With JF I know what I am getting. So, OK, I'm weird. I have literally watched every telecast in the last 8 years plus at least; live or dvrd. It was JF who kept me watching many, many of these games. Not the assorted goalies or he who shall not be named or Ryan Murphys or Staals.

Winning is great. Winning listening to JF is greater. Not just pbp but all the interviews he does on podcasts, radio, etc.

I may sound pretty strident like I hate TD and everything he does. I don't. Sure as hell glad he bought the team. It's just the manner in which he does things. And I am leery his of long term ownership/love affair of the team.

 

[Lempo]

Off-topic, but bankruptcy or several doesn't necessarily mean that a guy isn't a talented businessman. The endeavors may as well have been high risk high reward type of things, that were a sound bet to make where the pre-calculated risk just happened to realize instead of profits, so you shut down that operation and move on to the next one.

And then there obviously are the type of businessmen who will tell you that he had 14 millions in debt... but it all went in a bantruptcy, after which he erupts into a shitty laughter.

 

[Lempo]

Let's take it for granted that Dundon is a soulless, money-making robot whose sole interest is increasing his own profits to the exclusion of all else.

What will increase Tom Dundon's profits to the greatest possible degree? The Carolina Hurricanes becoming a much more valuable franchise that he can ruthlessly sell off.

What will make the Carolina Hurricanes a more valuable franchise? If lots of people watch them, buy merchandise, follow them on social media, etc. If sponsors pour revenue into ads. If the Centennial Authority dumps money into the arena. Basically, if they make tons of revenue.

What will make the Hurricanes increase revenue the fastest?
a) Spending more money on the media crew
b) Spending more money on the team

It's pretty clear which of these directions Dundon has chosen, and he has gone all-in on that choice. Unless he's woefully wrong, option B will mean a better hockey team, which will mean more fans, which will mean more revenue, which means an increase in franchise value, which means he probably will attempt to dump the franchise in the foreseeable future. And the kind of buyer who takes over will be the kind of person/organization which can spend close to a billion dollars on a hockey team. Which means no used car salesmen or 90s software guys in the lineup. It means an owner who's well capitalized to see us through downturns without having to worry if we'll never see our team again.

At that point, we win. And we'll squabble about who calls our games on TV because we're not squabbling about much more serious things. I'm OK with this plan.





I mean, I've been reading up on hockey every day for the past two or three decades. I can talk over my friends' heads about hockey if I need to. I can sit here and criticize decisions made by Hall of Fame executives.

If you put me in charge of an NHL team, I would drive it straight into the ground because I wouldn't know what the **** I was doing. Being well-read on a topic is not the same thing as being good at it.

I've let myself be told that the only way to make a small fortune by investing into a sports franchise is to start with a big fortune.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

We forget that Dundon bankrupted a restaurant business and sank $70M into a failing football league.

To be fair most people who open restaurants will wind up bankrupting that restaurant.

And didn't he only invest in the already failing football league because he was interested in some software they were using?

 

[emptyNedder]

Being well-read on a topic is not the same thing as being good at it.

Was I right or wrong about the football investment? I am not bragging, but the amount of research I have done gives me insight.

Understanding vaccines, does make one in favor of them. Reading up on horticulture does make your flower garden better. Sure we challenge each others' hockey opinions, but we don't normally compare someone who thinks goalies are overrated to anti-vaxers.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I don't know if the software was or wasn't part of it for sure. I don't remember how that ever resolved, if he even got it or thought he would have. I think as much as anything that one was he was already feeling the high of being an owner not too long before that. He got to be the big guy running the show by putting that money into the AAF. I'm sure he just liked the rush of that concept and had the money to throw in there. If it worked out, damn would he have been a big wig in the sports world. It didn't, and he had the money to take a shot.

 

[Svechhammer]

Both. Like I said, if he is worth 2b then 100k one year ain't gonna kill him and it would mean much good will. Not arguing with you on the business standpoint. That is who he is.

And to tell you the truth, I'd rather have Forslund. A goalie, especially, can go to hell in a heartbeat. With JF I know what I am getting. So, OK, I'm weird. I have literally watched every telecast in the last 8 years plus at least; live or dvrd. It was JF who kept me watching many, many of these games. Not the assorted goalies or he who shall not be named or Ryan Murphys or Staals.

Winning is great. Winning listening to JF is greater. Not just pbp but all the interviews he does on podcasts, radio, etc.

I may sound pretty strident like I hate TD and everything he does. I don't. Sure as hell glad he bought the team. It's just the manner in which he does things. And I am leery his of long term ownership/love affair of the team.

Boy its really easy to spend other people's money, huh?

 

[Rad ChaLose]

Yea, well, I watched "The Big Short" so let me have Margot Robbie explain this to you so you simpletons can understand #business

 

[AD Skinner]

Any goalie to whom 100k is more than a drop in the bucket to their salary isnt going to be an improvement over what we have. I mean I dont know what they were paying John, but unless it was in the millions, plural, I don't see how it isn't in the best interest of the hurricanes to keep him.

 

[Lempo]

Any goalie to whom 100k is more than a drop in the bucket to their salary isnt going to be an improvement over what we have. I mean I dont know what they were paying John, but unless it was in the millions, plural, I don't see how it isn't in the best interest of the hurricanes to keep him.

The organization managed to have everyone else but him signed on the new salary model.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Both. Like I said, if he is worth 2b then 100k one year ain't gonna kill him and it would mean much good will.

There's an owner like this. His name is Terry Pegula, and the fans are just as hard as him as they are on Dundon.

It sounds like you're coming from a different angle with your fandom, which is OK. For the vast majority, it's really not about spending to have nice bells and whistles... it's about winning hockey games. Literally everything about the franchise comes down to "did we win last night?" for probably 95%+ of the customers.

Was I right or wrong about the football investment? I am not bragging, but the amount of research I have done gives me insight.

Understanding vaccines, does make one in favor of them. Reading up on horticulture does make your flower garden better. Sure we challenge each others' hockey opinions, but we don't normally compare someone who thinks goalies are overrated to anti-vaxers.

I really don't know where things landed on the football venture. Last time I heard an update was forever ago and they were squabbling over bankruptcy proceedings.

I agree about vaccines and gardens, but I'm not about to second-guess an epidemiologist or a professor of horticulture. If anything, reading up on a topic should usually lead a person to understand just how little they know and increase their respect for people who are successful in practice.

 

[AD Skinner]

The organization managed to have everyone else but him signed on the new salary model.

But did any of them have other teams/national broadcasts knocking on their door because they are the best in their field?

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Boy its really easy to spend other people's money, huh?

Well. TD has spent mine. I've gone to at least 10 games since he's owned the team; parking and buying meh food and beer. Not to mention a few concerts as well. The video board and improvements which add to his bottom line currently and in the future paid by taxpayers (me) not TD.

 

[Finnish Jerk Train]

When TD first showed up, one of the lines from an interview which stuck with me is that he "saw an opportunity to add value." He also said that he's the kind of guy to make an offer, and if it's rejected, he moves on. The context of the latter was that he had to make two offers before PK would bite, and it was very out of character for him to go back to the table after his first offer was rebuffed.

I'm sure he enjoys being a team owner, but I firmly believe he sees it as an investment first and foremost. The prices paid for pro teams are skyrocketing, and he found one that was beat up if not quite left for dead. This was a value play: when he showed up, this team was mired in perpetual mediocrity and drew 12k fans per game. He's here to turn it into one that consistently sells out the building. He knows that this market will support a winner (and bluntly, will only support a winner). So he's pouring his resources into things that will turn it into one on the ice, at the expense of all else - including goodwill. At some point, he's going to start looking at different valuation metrics and pondering when to exit the deal.

This is a long-winded way to say that I'm surprised by neither his lowball offer to Forslund nor his disinclination to negotiate.

 

[Lempo]

But did any of them have other teams/national broadcasts knocking on their door because they are the best in their field?

Apparently not, but my point was that they managed to shave tens of percents off from the broacast employee budget. Sadly re-signing John now on better terms would be a massive complication for the organization.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

There's an owner like this. His name is Terry Pegula, and the fans are just as hard as him as they are on Dundon.

It sounds like you're coming from a different angle with your fandom, which is OK. For the vast majority, it's really not about spending to have nice bells and whistles... it's about winning hockey games. Literally everything about the franchise comes down to "did we win last night?" for probably 95%+ of the customers.
e.

No. Winning is of utmost importance. You are looking at this as a binary issue. Either spend $ on winning or $ for "bells and whistles". Why not both. Especially when the $ for your "b & w" - which I would not put JF in that category - is somewhat of a pittance. It's not PK we are talking about. It's a 2 billion dollar man.

Why was TD so set on a new video board? (And was a bit of a dick when the Authority said he couldn't get the monster he wanted immediately?) Is that not a bell and whistle? Does having a new board make Scott Darling a Vezina candidate? Oh that's right; it's not coming out of his pocket.

What happens when we are not winning. A couple bad contracts, etc. and it is tough to get out of that mediocre funk. It is a rare thing for a franchise to continually excel. We have seen how fickle the fans are here. No fans, no winning, no JF who though he still loves the Canes is now pbp for another franchise or 100% national and so imbittered there is no way he comes back as pbp here.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

When TD first showed up, one of the lines from an interview which stuck with me is that he "saw an opportunity to add value." He also said that he's the kind of guy to make an offer, and if it's rejected, he moves on. The context of the latter was that he had to make two offers before PK would bite, and it was very out of character for him to go back to the table after his first offer was rebuffed.

I'm sure he enjoys being a team owner, but I firmly believe he sees it as an investment first and foremost. The prices paid for pro teams are skyrocketing, and he found one that was beat up if not quite left for dead. This was a value play: when he showed up, this team was mired in perpetual mediocrity and drew 12k fans per game. He's here to turn it into one that consistently sells out the building. He knows that this market will support a winner (and bluntly, will only support a winner). So he's pouring his resources into things that will turn it into one on the ice, at the expense of all else - including goodwill. At some point, he's going to start looking at different valuation metrics and pondering when to exit the deal.

This is a long-winded way to say that I'm surprised by neither his lowball offer to Forslund nor his disinclination to negotiate.

Nailed it.

 

[Joe McGrath]

No. Winning is of utmost importance. You are looking at this as a binary issue. Either spend $ on winning or $ for "bells and whistles". Why not both. Especially when the $ for your "b & w" - which I would not put JF in that category - is somewhat of a pittance. It's not PK we are talking about. It's a 2 billion dollar man.

Why was TD so set on a new video board? (And was a bit of a dick when the Authority said he couldn't get the monster he wanted immediately?) Is that not a bell and whistle? Does having a new board make Scott Darling a Vezina candidate? Oh that's right; it's not coming out of his pocket.

What happens when we are not winning. A couple bad contracts, etc. and it is tough to get out of that mediocre funk. It is a rare thing for a franchise to continually excel. We have seen how fickle the fans are here. No fans, no winning, no JF who though he still loves the Canes is now pbp for another franchise or 100% national and so imbittered there is no way he comes back as pbp here.

You keep referencing $2billion. He’s not worth $2billion. $1.1 billion is the number I’ve seen the most. Who knows how much of that liquid and that’s before he pissed away $70million on the AAF. That’s not to say he isn’t perfectly capable of just paying Forslund what he’s worth, but you’re over exaggerating how much money he can throw around.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Boy its really easy to spend other people's money, huh?

In fairness, we do that all the time on Hf as it applies to player contracts, what players we should target in UFA, who we should trade for, etc. This is no different.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Because it is, from a business standpoint, a waste of money.

If he can spend $100K to retain Forslund or $100K on a better goalie, which of those do you really want?

Why is it A or B? You assume he has “this fixed amount” to spend. We know this isn’t the case.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Nevermind

 

[emptyNedder]

If anything, reading up on a topic should usually lead a person to understand just how little they know and increase their respect for people who are successful in practice.

This is true of professions and other fields which require passion AND expertise. However, Thoreau has seldom been proven wrong in a century and a half—"The ways by which you may get money almost without exception lead downward."

I will admit my reading up on the topic decreased my respect for Ford (anti-semitic), Carnegie (used his money to buy violence against his own workers), Donald Sterling (neglected his sports franchise and was proven racist, but still increased value $1.5B), and others.

Respect should be about more than "success."

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

You keep referencing $2billion. He’s not worth $2billion. $1.1 billion is the number I’ve seen the most. Who knows how much of that liquid and that’s before he pissed away $70million on the AAF. That’s not to say he isn’t perfectly capable of just paying Forslund what he’s worth, but you’re over exaggerating how much money he can throw around.

Oops. You are correct sir. I don't know why I had the 2b stuck in my mind. And yes, perhaps he is sweating his liquidity at the moment. I'll still stick to my guns...

 

[Navin R Slavin]

You keep referencing $2billion. He’s not worth $2billion. $1.1 billion is the number I’ve seen the most. Who knows how much of that liquid and that’s before he pissed away $70million on the AAF. That’s not to say he isn’t perfectly capable of just paying Forslund what he’s worth, but you’re over exaggerating how much money he can throw around.

Just a reminder: $1.1b at a 7% rate of return earns $77m. He likely lost a year's worth of returns on the AAF, nothing more.

Now, how TopGolf is faring during this climate of "stay the f*** at home" -- it was estimated to IPO at a $4b valuation pre-COVID, which has very likely changed -- is a much more interesting question. As of 4 days ago they're still working on the IPO, apparently:

Dallas-based Topgolf tees up IPO talks with possible merger into blank-check company