Former Canucks: Players & Management VI

[iloveloov*]

Hey, just a quick question. Who left the team with Horvat, Hutton, Gaunce, Kassian, Rodin, Subban, Shinkaruk?

Again, basically NOTHING to re-build around.

Horvat is the ONLY player with ANY star potential BUT he's only a middle six tweener right now and Gillis had to spend a franchise goaltender at the beginning of his prime to get him which was atrocious asset management.

Hutton is currently a bottom pairing defenseman
Gaunce is currently a zero offense 4th liner with 1 goal in half a season
Kassian is a headcase
Rodin will have played 0 NHL games by the age of 26
Subban is currently an AHL defenseman
Shinkaruk is currently an AHL forward

And tradeable pieces such as Garrison, Kesler, Matthias, Hansen, Richardson?

3 out of those 5 "tradeable" pieces had no trade clauses.

The two that didn't, Matthias and Richardson wow such PRIMO assets to sell off to jumpstart a re-build. Wow Benning really blew it we should've won the cup already.

Wow, its almost like Horvat ISN'T one of our best players. Weird. Its almost like a good GM could have actually done a retool pretty easily.

Looks like I'm in denial, you're right

Yeah Horvat is one of our best players. That's good for Bo Horvat but bad for the rest of our players.

When you need to trade a franchise goalie entering his prime who is easily top 3 in the league for a middle six forward you don't get to be called a good asset manager and you don't get to be considered a good general manager.

 

[geebaan]

Again, basically NOTHING to re-build around.

Horvat is the ONLY player with ANY star potential BUT he's only a middle six tweener right now and Gillis had to spend a franchise goaltender at the beginning of his prime to get him which was atrocious asset management.

Hutton is currently a bottom pairing defenseman
Gaunce is currently a zero offense 4th liner with 1 goal in half a season
Kassian is a headcase
Rodin will have played 0 NHL games by the age of 26
Subban is currently an AHL defenseman
Shinkaruk is currently an AHL forward



3 out of those 5 "tradeable" pieces had no trade clauses.

The two that didn't, Matthias and Richardson wow such PRIMO assets to sell off to jumpstart a re-build. Wow Benning really blew it we should've won the cup already.



Yeah Horvat is one of our best players. That's good for Bo Horvat but bad for the rest of our players.

When you need to trade a franchise goalie entering his prime who is easily top 3 in the league for a middle six forward you don't get to be called a good asset manager and you don't get to be considered a good general manager.

What about Benning is a good asset manager? Would Cory Schneider really help this team? Look what he's done for the Devils. Kept them just bad enough to miss the playoffs, but not mediocre enough for a high pick. Although you seem to like being in limbo, and losing, so thats fair.

Benning has done that simply by the moronic moves he's made. But, lets address your other points. \

Hutton is currently a bottom pairing defenseman Really? Cause I've been seeing him on the 2nd pairing essentially all year, and was a top 4 by the end of last year also.
Gaunce is currently a zero offense 4th liner with 1 goal in half a season Just like Dorsett, Granlund, Vey? At least we didn't have to give up assets for him, he was already here. And maybe he turns into even more, who knows.
Kassian is a headcase Man, sure wish we had a head case that could put up the points he has this year, last year, and even the Torts year. On an offense starved team, it might be prudent to go get more head cases, instead of trading them for over the hill fighters WHILE adding a pick
Rodin will have played 0 NHL games by the age of 26 Wasn't Benning touting how important he was to this team in the offseason, or did you also just forget his SHL MVP award? Benning, your main man, pointed to not having Rodin as a struggle for the offence.
Subban is currently an AHL defenseman Yea, he has no chance to be anything, you are right. Nobody who as ever stayed and developed in the AHL has turned into anything
Shinkaruk is currently an AHL forward I believe he was called up by the Flames this year no? Second line too? Man, its almost like the Flames are trying to develop him properly (unlike Virtanen, another gem of this regime)

 

[timw33]

Forsling with assists in back to back games.

 

[Lindgren]

Vey and Shinkaruk each scored for Stockton this evening.

Watch for Vey to get a call-up and go on a run for the Flames.

I'm quoting myself by way of pointing out that Shinkaruk and Vey are both now up with the Flames. Vey was pointless in his first game up on Thursday (just under 11 minutes of ice time). Shinkaruk is pointless in two games.

 

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[Jimson Hogarth*]

Kassian is a headcase Man, sure wish we had a head case that could put up the points he has this year,

Lol wut?

Currently 9 Canucks (8 forwards)have as many or more points than Kass who is being force fed top 6 time in Siberia. And the Canucks are the lowest scoring team in the league!

 

[banme*]

Kassian hasn't been particularly productive this year, doesn't generate a ton of shots and actually has an above average shooting %. His rate scoring is good as usual though, and there have been accounts of him being more engaged.

 

[Wilch]

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CxLtRnTXgAUIWef.mp4

 

[timw33]

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CxLtRnTXgAUIWef.mp4

Larsen out, Forsling In....

 

[Street Hawk]

Kassian hasn't been particularly productive this year, doesn't generate a ton of shots and actually has an above average shooting %. His rate scoring is good as usual though, and there have been accounts of him being more engaged.

At this point in his career, if Kassian gave the Oilers 10 goals and 20 points he'd be fine offensively. It's the physical game that the Oilers want most out of him. The fact that he was a former 1st round pick means nothing right now. They want him to use his size the way Ferland did against the Canucks in the 2015. Is Kassian doing that?

I'm very surprised how well Grabner is playing. 10 goals already. Thought he career was almost over after play 80 games with the Leafs last season and getting 18 points. Thought he was doing down given his prior 2 years with the Isles.

Nice to see that he had a decent career. Not the offensive engine that most expected. Hasn't been in the top 6 for the majority of his career.

 

[Zaddy91]

Grabner 10 goals, but damn we could of had

Richardson

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

ah happier times. former teammates and guys who played for pat quinn share some memories-- http://sports.yahoo.com/news/former...pat-quinn-hockey-hall-of-famer-152851948.html

 

[FroshaugFan2]

Grabner 10 goals, but damn we could of had

Richardson

Yeah, it would have been nice if Benning signed Grabner last summer.

Would be a big improvement on RW over Skille, Dorsett, and Virtanen.

 

[PM]

Yeah, it would have been nice if Benning signed Grabner last summer.

Would be a big improvement on RW over Skille, Dorsett, and Virtanen.

Or traded the Islanders four pieces of junk like the Leafs did. Lots of opportunities to pick up Grabner which shouldn't be surprising given the guy has one good season every 4-5 years. And this is coming from a big Grabner fan who followed him very close on the Moose.

 

[iloveloov*]

I'm sure Michael Grabner would've scored 10 goals by now if he was playing for the Canucks.

/s

 

[mathonwy]

I actually kinda agree with iloveloov. Getting just Horvat back strictly from a value perspective was ridiculously bad value.

Your Canucks had patiently waited 3 years for Schneid to finish school and then invested 3 years of Moose time and 3 years Canuck time for a total of 9 years of development time and traded all of it for a player that hadn't played 1 second in the NHL.

And then there is market reality where if you get a 1st for a backup 'tender, you take that 1st and you run.

Not sure what happened behind the scenes, wish we still had Schneider, wish a lot of things.

 

[Oliewud]

what the hell would a 30 year old schneider do for us now?

the pick was a gamble. it was bad value at the time...BUT IMO right now with what horvat is showing it would be a pretty even trade.

 

[Beansy*]

what the hell would a 30 year old schneider do for us now?

the pick was a gamble. it was bad value at the time...BUT IMO right now with what horvat is showing it would be a pretty even trade.

I think the argument is the value received at the time. I am not sure either organization would take that trade back now.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

I think NJ would take that trade back. Schneider isn't doing them any good and they'd be better able to rebuild had they kept the 9th overall.

 

[Ryp37]

Goalies don't really have much value these days. Lot of teams are able to find their goalies for cheap/develop them so they don't pay through the nose for them.

Devan Dubnyk to Nashville for Matt Hendricks
Cory Schneider for the ninth overall pick (Bo Horvat)
Jonathan Bernier for Ben Scrivens, Matt Frattin, second-rounder
Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher, fourth-rounder
Steve Mason for Michael Leighton, third-rounder
Sergei Bobrovsky for second-rounder, two fourth-rounders
Anders Lindback (and Kyle Wilson) for two second-rounders, one third-rounder and Sebastien Caron
Tomas Vokoun for a seventh-rounder
Semyon Varlamov for first-rounder (Filip Forsberg) and second-rounder
Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson
Dwayne Roloson for Ty Wishart
Jaroslav Halak for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz
Kari Lehtonen for Ivan Vishnevskiy and fourth-rounder

That being said I agree, there should have been at least another pick thrown in the Schneider deal.

 

[RandV]

what the hell would a 30 year old schneider do for us now?

the pick was a gamble. it was bad value at the time...BUT IMO right now with what horvat is showing it would be a pretty even trade.

Personally I always thought the trade was fine. The 'value' that we lost were the extra complimentary assets, which typically don't mean much in the grand scheme of things. The portion of the trade we did get back though was the primary asset, Horvat should be a key player with us for a very long time. While in terms of asset value he's not equal to Schneider 1:1, you very rarely get that sort of a return when trading a core player.

A good example for what I'm saying, let's go back to Brian Burke's Pavel Bure trade. There were 9 players/picks/prospects involved in the trade. Looking back at it with full hindsight 7/9 of those involved ended up being little more than white noise, the only thing that mattered in the deal was Bure for Jovo.

Dealing Schneider for Horvat 1:1 is just like trading Bure for Jovo straight up 17 years ago.

 

[geebaan]

Goalies don't really have much value these days. Lot of teams are able to find their goalies for cheap/develop them so they don't pay through the nose for them.

Devan Dubnyk to Nashville for Matt Hendricks
Cory Schneider for the ninth overall pick (Bo Horvat)
Jonathan Bernier for Ben Scrivens, Matt Frattin, second-rounder
Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher, fourth-rounder
Steve Mason for Michael Leighton, third-rounder
Sergei Bobrovsky for second-rounder, two fourth-rounders
Anders Lindback (and Kyle Wilson) for two second-rounders, one third-rounder and Sebastien Caron
Tomas Vokoun for a seventh-rounder
Semyon Varlamov for first-rounder (Filip Forsberg) and second-rounder
Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson
Dwayne Roloson for Ty Wishart
Jaroslav Halak for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz
Kari Lehtonen for Ivan Vishnevskiy and fourth-rounder

That being said I agree, there should have been at least another pick thrown in the Schneider deal.

Look, I think most people would say that the we didn't get enough value for Schneids, but seeing this list, really puts into perspective what goalies get.

It sucks, but its the reality. But I'm not excusing Gillis here, he made a bad move. But like another poster said, what would Schneider do for this team? Make it just miss the playoffs instead of miss badly? I don't understand.

 

[F A N]

It's hard to say how much difference elite goaltending can make. Look at the Habs, the Habs with Price and the Habs without Price is the difference between Cup finals contender vs missing the playoffs. Schneider is 30 but has already provided 3 years of elite goaltending and likely many more. I have always believed in keeping the better goaltender and trading Luongo for whatever we could have gotten. But it is what it is. Since Schneider was traded, the bigger question was whether the Canucks were better off trading Schneider to the Oilers and getting at least an extra 2nd rounder. I defended the decision at the time and looking at the draft with current hindsight, I'm not sure it would have made much of a difference.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Personally I always thought the trade was fine. The 'value' that we lost were the extra complimentary assets, which typically don't mean much in the grand scheme of things. The portion of the trade we did get back though was the primary asset, Horvat should be a key player with us for a very long time. While in terms of asset value he's not equal to Schneider 1:1, you very rarely get that sort of a return when trading a core player.

A good example for what I'm saying, let's go back to Brian Burke's Pavel Bure trade. There were 9 players/picks/prospects involved in the trade. Looking back at it with full hindsight 7/9 of those involved ended up being little more than white noise, the only thing that mattered in the deal was Bure for Jovo.

Dealing Schneider for Horvat 1:1 is just like trading Bure for Jovo straight up 17 years ago.

What? Complementary assets in trades is all this forum cares about!!

 

[y2kcanucks]

Goalies don't really have much value these days. Lot of teams are able to find their goalies for cheap/develop them so they don't pay through the nose for them.

Devan Dubnyk to Nashville for Matt Hendricks
Cory Schneider for the ninth overall pick (Bo Horvat)
Jonathan Bernier for Ben Scrivens, Matt Frattin, second-rounder
Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher, fourth-rounder
Steve Mason for Michael Leighton, third-rounder
Sergei Bobrovsky for second-rounder, two fourth-rounders
Anders Lindback (and Kyle Wilson) for two second-rounders, one third-rounder and Sebastien Caron
Tomas Vokoun for a seventh-rounder
Semyon Varlamov for first-rounder (Filip Forsberg) and second-rounder
Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson
Dwayne Roloson for Ty Wishart
Jaroslav Halak for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz
Kari Lehtonen for Ivan Vishnevskiy and fourth-rounder

That being said I agree, there should have been at least another pick thrown in the Schneider deal.

Cool.

So when do we pick up Carey Price for Alex Burrows, Ben Hutton, and a 2nd round pick?