Former Canucks: Players & Management VI

[me2]

For what it's worth, Gillis would have kept the 2010 first if Bennett and Tinordi were still available so we know the two were the guys they targeted.

And which Canucks management person is this information from?

Click to read more...

 

[racerjoe]

Mallet was 20 and unimpressive in his overage season. It was a straight up bad pick for a 2nd rounder, I could've justified it if he were a 4-7th rounder. It was a reach if there ever was one.

Now I was far from a draft guy back then, I think even now it is a reach for me to call myself a draft guy, and I am much more into it. But Mallet was wanted by a few guys, and we had to grab him with our second if we wanted to take him.

Now yeah he turned out badly, but it wasn't some out there pick, it would have been just as bad if we picked any other guy that didn't turn out.

 

[Canucker]

Now I was far from a draft guy back then, I think even now it is a reach for me to call myself a draft guy, and I am much more into it. But Mallet was wanted by a few guys, and we had to grab him with our second if we wanted to take him.

Now yeah he turned out badly, but it wasn't some out there pick, it would have been just as bad if we picked any other guy that didn't turn out.

I don't recall anyone actually "wanting" Mallet, but they were giving Gillis the benefit of the doubt with the pick...I myself, and I recall many others wanted Severson.

 

[VanJack]

Shinkaruk and Vey both in Calgary....if nothing else they're going to be motivated when they play the Canucks.

 

[RandV]

He was a draft re-entry, not an overager.

Yes I used the wrong term here but that's what I meant.

...Though I really shouldn't even bother replying to begin with, I mean it says a lot by itself that a bust late 2nd rounder from 54 years ago is continuously brought up as one of the reasons our prior GM was bad

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Shinkaruk and Vey both in Calgary....if nothing else they're going to be motivated when they play the Canucks.

Ooooo a motivated Vey...LOOK OUT!!

 

[JA]

Ooooo a motivated Vey...LOOK OUT!!

Careful.



40% of his points in his debut season were against Vancouver. Technically, he has recorded a point in every game he has ever played against the Canucks, and they've all been victories for his team.






It's the Curtis Sanford phenomenon.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

40% of five points is...

 

[VanJack]

40% of five points is...

If you believe in the Canuck 'Peter Principle' at work, both Vey and Shinkaruk will thrive in Calgary...and Gulatzen will turn around and say that he knew all along that both of them could do it...just needed to get away from Willie.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

If you believe in the Canuck 'Peter Principle' at work, both Vey and Shinkaruk will thrive in Calgary...and Gulatzen will turn around and say that he knew all along that both of them could do it...just needed to get away from Willie.

Shinkaruk I have no beef with whatsoever. I wish we'd have given him a better shot, and hate the trade for Granlund with a burning passion. But in his case, we're not getting him away from Willie because he was only near Willie for a whopping big one game. Not much negative programming to undo there.

And I don't think Vey will thrive because Vey sucks. I would be utterly floored if he became even a regular player there.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Now I was far from a draft guy back then, I think even now it is a reach for me to call myself a draft guy, and I am much more into it. But Mallet was wanted by a few guys, and we had to grab him with our second if we wanted to take him.

Now yeah he turned out badly, but it wasn't some out there pick, it would have been just as bad if we picked any other guy that didn't turn out.

As I've said before, the thing about drafting these older players is that they pretty much get tested immediately, thrown into a professional league to either sink or swim. There's no post-draft junior season where they can put up big numbers against kids and convince everyone that they are "tracking well." This is why I dislike terms like "draft+1" year etc, and prefer to look at how a player does in his first professional season, given the context.

If Cole Cassels doesn't step up next season he could find himself in the ECHL and basically be the same sort of pick as Mallet in terms of "success," the only difference is that since he was drafted younger, we had a couple seasons before he turned pro where he "looked like" a steal.

I'm using Cassels purely as a hypothetical of course; I've heard promising things about his play late last season. But if he ends up about the same as Mallet - plateauing as a good ECHL player - are people going to constantly moan about that pick the way they do about Mallet? I doubt that very much.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Are people still arguing that Gillis, a GM who was good at everything except drafting, who then figured out drafting in his final few seasons, is somehow to blame for our current situation?

If Gillis was in charge of our rebuild like he wanted after we lost to the Sharks in 2013, we would be in a similar position as Toronto: Great management, great staff, elite prospects, bright future.

I honestly wonder if the Aquilini's will look back on their firing of Gillis and hiring of LinBenning and identify how much money it cost them. Has to be in excess of 100 million, just for some simple personnel decisions.

 

[vancityluongo]

Are people still arguing that Gillis, a GM who was good at everything except drafting, who then figured out drafting in his final few seasons, is somehow to blame for our current situation?

If Gillis was in charge of our rebuild like he wanted after we lost to the Sharks in 2013, we would be in a similar position as Toronto: Great management, great staff, elite prospects, bright future.

I honestly wonder if the Aquilini's will look back on their firing of Gillis and hiring of LinBenning and identify how much money it cost them. Has to be in excess of 100 million, just for some simple personnel decisions.

Couldn't have happened to better people. Firing Gillis when they did was always dumb.

Only thing I disagree with is that they'd be in the same position as Toronto; we'd be in a much better position than Toronto. Astutely adding prospects and making intelligent trades (aka not blowing assets left and right and bleeding value) to build off the foundation in place ideally would have led to something like this:

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Nylander-Horvat-Hansen
Matthias-Larkin-Santorelli
Higgins-Richardson-Burrows
Shinkaruk/Gaunce

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-Bieksa
Garrison-Corrado
Hutton

Markstrom
Lack

Literally just assuming that Gillis stands firm for the 10th overall for Kesler. No Vatanen, no Bonino, no Perreault. Just a "rebuild" style return for a superstar player, extremely similar to the 9th for Cory a year earlier. Taking Larkin and Nylander based on speculation is obviously a big grant, but also assuming no free agent signings and Zack Kassian on the top line rather than a Loui Eriksson. Not that you couldn't fit in a player like Eriksson given the ample cap space that lineup would have.

Not touching the defense is also probably bold because given that Gillis proclaimed he wanted a rebuild he likely has to move one of Garrison or Bieksa. Then again, his treatment of players on NTC's was vastly different than Jimbo's so maybe not.

Obviously that's just made up...but it really goes to show, given that the above lineup was made with relatively few moves from just the roster Benning inherited... there are much better things to be fired up about than the drafting **** ups Mike Gillis made.

 

[F A N]

Are people still arguing that Gillis, a GM who was good at everything except drafting, who then figured out drafting in his final few seasons, is somehow to blame for our current situation?

If Gillis was in charge of our rebuild like he wanted after we lost to the Sharks in 2013, we would be in a similar position as Toronto: Great management, great staff, elite prospects, bright future.

You know, with all the talk about Gillis not being allowed to rebuild, his parting shots certainly did not seem like he believed in the type of tear down lose for a few years and accumulate top draft picks rebuild. In fact, Gillis felt the team needed to get back to the style of play that made the team successful and he felt he had the personnel to do it. From Gillis' parting shots it seemed like he felt he was handcuffed. I think all the evidence suggests that Gillis felt he was handcuffed and was handcuffed. But there's no evidence or indication to suggest that "rebuild" meant the type of rebuild Toronto is doing and what some fans here want.

Gillis liked to talk about 6 years ago (before he got fired). And one of the things he did was to acquire Bernier and offer sheet Backes. And remember that his stance is to never ask a player to waive their NTC. And in his 6 years here, the only players that waived their NTC in a trade were Kesler and Luongo who asked for a trade.

 

[racerjoe]

You know, with all the talk about Gillis not being allowed to rebuild, his parting shots certainly did not seem like he believed in the type of tear down lose for a few years and accumulate top draft picks rebuild. In fact, Gillis felt the team needed to get back to the style of play that made the team successful and he felt he had the personnel to do it. From Gillis' parting shots it seemed like he felt he was handcuffed. I think all the evidence suggests that Gillis felt he was handcuffed and was handcuffed. But there's no evidence or indication to suggest that "rebuild" meant the type of rebuild Toronto is doing and what some fans here want.

Gillis liked to talk about 6 years ago (before he got fired). And one of the things he did was to acquire Bernier and offer sheet Backes. And remember that his stance is to never ask a player to waive their NTC. And in his 6 years here, the only players that waived their NTC in a trade were Kesler and Luongo who asked for a trade.

I think there is a lot made from this that shouldn't be. I don't think it means we would not "ask" a player to not be traded ever. I think it just means how he would approach it. I also would agree it means he wouldn't force it. I believe he would talk to players about their role and if staying here was right for them.

Basically like many Gillis things, I think it is how you word it.

 

[Jay Cee]

So the key is pretending that you will never ask them to waive their NTC only to ask them to waive it later?

 

[racerjoe]

So the key is pretending that you will never ask them to waive their NTC only to ask them to waive it later?

I don't know if there is a key, and it is all speculation, but I don't think it was what everyone made it out to be. It's the lawyer talk that people love to hate on MG for.

 

[rune74]

Let's see what happens with Luongo, this could be a bad situation.

 

[Mad Brills*]

mccann's doing an AMA right now on r/hockey

 

[RandV]

You know, with all the talk about Gillis not being allowed to rebuild, his parting shots certainly did not seem like he believed in the type of tear down lose for a few years and accumulate top draft picks rebuild. In fact, Gillis felt the team needed to get back to the style of play that made the team successful and he felt he had the personnel to do it. From Gillis' parting shots it seemed like he felt he was handcuffed. I think all the evidence suggests that Gillis felt he was handcuffed and was handcuffed. But there's no evidence or indication to suggest that "rebuild" meant the type of rebuild Toronto is doing and what some fans here want.

Gillis liked to talk about 6 years ago (before he got fired). And one of the things he did was to acquire Bernier and offer sheet Backes. And remember that his stance is to never ask a player to waive their NTC. And in his 6 years here, the only players that waived their NTC in a trade were Kesler and Luongo who asked for a trade.

Saying you want to rebuild doesn't mean you just blow everything and go up and go scorched Earth, plus in regards to Toronto they didn't really have anything to tear down to behind with. There's a couple things you'll notice Gillis did in his last few seasons:

1. Traded prime asset Corey Schneider for no immediate help, just a 9th overall pick
2. Stopped trading draft picks for vets entirely
3. Acquired a farm team in Utica and started building up its depth

We'll never know now, but in my opinion a rebuild under Gillis would mean we keep the NTC vets that want to stay, trade those that don't for draft picks and prospects (see: Kesler), and fill the roster holes with players like Santorelli/Richardson/Matthias while we focus on drafting and developing players in Utica.

People like to make out the NTC contracts a much bigger problem than it ever really was.

 

[DL44]

So what's it looking like right now for active-ish ex-Canucks to discuss here...

Higgins-Kesler-Vrbata
Cracknell-Bonino-Booth
Matthias-Richardson-Kassian
Raymond-McCann-Weise
Shinkaruk-Vey-Prust
Jensen-Hodgson-Sestito
Santorelli--Schroeder-Dalpe

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Garrison-Weber
Bartkowski-Stanton
Corrado-Clendenning

Luongo/Lack/Schneider

Coaches: AV, Crow, Torts, Sullivan, Gutz, Bowness

Let's see what happens with Luongo, this could be a bad situation.

It's actually a poorly designed solution to the problem they were trying to address.
i.e. the longer he plays, the more drastic the penalty in the yrs we are punished vs if he quit today. It's flawed and drastic.

If i were a betting man, I think they quietly modify it at the next CBA.

 

[hellstick]

mccann's doing an AMA right now on r/hockey

Here's a link. Seems like a pretty good kid, still disappointed we let him go. I hope he thrives in Florida.

 

[tantalum]

Here's a link. Seems like a pretty good kid, still disappointed we let him go. I hope he thrives in Florida.

By good kid I assume you mean **** disturbing loose cannon who just didn't get it and needed to be moved out before he was a cancer. Or something like that.

 

[coldsteel79]

Here's a link. Seems like a pretty good kid, still disappointed we let him go. I hope he thrives in Florida.

I think he'll do great in the east, especially with a season or two in the ahl.

 

[Mad Brills*]

ruh roh