News Article: Forget Top Six-Bottom Six, Embrace "Top-12"

[indigobuffalo]

I liked this article more for the getting rid of the top 6 bottom 6 mentality and getting rid of Orr and McClaren than the stuff about McClement. Bodie and Clarkson are tough enough if things get chippy.

I still like Orr but he lost a step and needs to work harder in training to get his footspeed higher, like it was in the lockout shortened season.

When Colton is skating hard he is highly effective at disrupting the opposing team, and generates a lot of offensive zone faceoffs as a result.

 

[gtforepro]

I still like Orr but he lost a step and needs to work harder in training to get his footspeed higher, like it was in the lockout shortened season.

When Colton is skating hard he is highly effective at disrupting the opposing team, and generates a lot of offensive zone faceoffs as a result.

Yeah, I like Orr as well, but I just don't see how he helps you win a hockey game. It feels like a victory any time he gets off the ice without the other team scoring...

 

[BlueForever]

Especially once we hit the playoffs. This season we have the personnel, why not use it?

JVR Bozak Kessel
Lupul Kadri Kulemin
Raymond Holland Clarkson
D'Amigo McClement Bodie

Your missing Bolland.

JVR-BOZAK-KESSEL
LUPUL-KADRI-CLARKSON
RAYMOND-BOLLAND-KULEMIN
HOLLAND-MCLEMENT-BODIE

I know Holland is playing the wing, but hes better the D'Amigo and Orr. Extra center just in case in the lineup. Rolling these four lines would be great, bottom six are interchangeable.

 

[egd27]

If and when we have this 4th line that can be "rolled", in what situations would people play them, and which other line's ice time would you reduce to accommodate the additional 4th line minutes?

 

[gtforepro]

If and when we have this 4th line that can be "rolled", in what situations would people play them, and which other line's ice time would you reduce to accommodate the additional 4th line minutes?

I've always thought 3 lines with a couple guys for PK duty and a goon would be fine. Just don't give them a regular shift. If someone needs a break, plug a PK'er into his spot for a shift.

 

[shaner8989]

Amateur article. The fact that this guy groups McClement with McLaren and Orr means he knows nothing. Second of all our healthy line up pretty much does look like that except when Carlyle has the occasional brain fart and dresses the goons. Ashton is not a center and Bodie not "Brodie" is better than him anyways right now.

I'd have:

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Kulemin/Clarkson
Raymond-Bolland-Kulemin/Clarkson
Smith-McClement-Bodie
D'Amigo/Ashton

As our line up. People are forgetting about Smith the guy was pretty much Bodie when he was up, heart and soul player, goes hard every shift. Just please get rid of Orr and McLaren. At least one of them.

Also with the line up I posted is it possible to fit that line up under the cap next season? Can both Raymond AND Kulemin be re-signed?

Exactly this.

 

[pheasant]

...
Whose to say that McClement provides any leadership at all? Are you in the locker room to experience this "leadership" he brings? Its not something that is quantifiable either, its overated when talking about bottom-six players. This is the type of ideology im trying to preach readers to stop using.
...

You dismiss the notion that McClement's leadership has value on the basis that we are not there to see it. Yet you just finished speculating, and continue to insist, that it has no value at all. Are you in the locker room to experience that he doesn't bring leadership?

You have got to be kidding me right? You seriously believe that a GM sets out to specifically acquire someone to comfort people in the locker room rather than provide on-ice production?

They value the production more than anything man! Its a myth that leadership actually elevates the play of a team! Its all about whether you can play the game, not whether you can give a great speech before it, that's the coach's job.

Tell me, what do you think is the issue with the Oilers right now? They have a crazy amount of talent, and the talented players are seeing ice time. They should be a contender then, right?

Or maybe they shipped out their former captain in Horcoff, brought in a first time NHL head coach, and don't have anyone with enough experience for the young guys to draw from.

Seriously, I think you are having some issues understanding what leadership is. It can be a locker room speech, as you said, yes. But it can be a vet goalie before a shootout saying to the young starter "Vrbata likes to do a fake forehand and then shoot backhand." Or the fact that Crosby lived with Lemieux for like 5 years when he came into the NHL.

 

[Hounsy]

If you drop McClement from the line up for a guy that does not pay PK like Holland on the fourth then a bunch of your match up options will be screwed up during periods when special teams throws your lines out of sync.

Side note: This really should not be tagged a News Article as it is a fan Op-ed piece.

 

[gabeliscious]

Amateur article. The fact that this guy groups McClement with McLaren and Orr means he knows nothing. Second of all our healthy line up pretty much does look like that except when Carlyle has the occasional brain fart and dresses the goons. Ashton is not a center and Bodie not "Brodie" is better than him anyways right now.

I'd have:

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Kulemin/Clarkson
Raymond-Bolland-Kulemin/Clarkson
Smith-McClement-Bodie
D'Amigo/Ashton

As our line up. People are forgetting about Smith the guy was pretty much Bodie when he was up, heart and soul player, goes hard every shift. Just please get rid of Orr and McLaren. At least one of them.

Also with the line up I posted is it possible to fit that line up under the cap next season? Can both Raymond AND Kulemin be re-signed?

i like the look of your lineup but i cant see nonis carrying ashton and damigo as scratches and waiving orr and mclaren. if ashton/damigo arent going to play they might as well have a good run with the marlies playoffs. i also think it would be a dick move to waive orr/mclaren just for the playoffs. even though it will 100% be for the best of the team, you need to respect the players that got you there. if they are going to be waived it should be now not at the playoffs.

i think the money wont be an issue to get everyone signed. leafs have enough cap space left and really bolland is the biggest ufa followed by kulemin. imo raymond could be extending depending on cost.

for a playoff 4th line imo damigo-mclemment-bodie is the best option out of what we have. damigo is >> defensively then smith/ashton/orr/mclaren. unlike orr and mclaren bodie can check hard and takes less stupid penalties. he can also pass and shoot enough to not be a liability.

Carlyle will never roll four lines.

i dont disagree entirely but in fairness we have had injuries for a large part of the season. with bolland being hurt our 4th line center is playing most of his minutes in a 3rd roll capacity (although carlyle has experimented throughout the season).

i think when bolland comes back the 4th line might see more ice time.

raymon-bolland-clarkson will get their ice time and then depending on the construction of the line a 4th line could get more then 3 minutes of playing time.

If and when we have this 4th line that can be "rolled", in what situations would people play them, and which other line's ice time would you reduce to accommodate the additional 4th line minutes?

4 lines are not going to be rolling every night. there are many nights when jvr-bozak-kessel are invisible or lupul-kadri-+ are invisible. the ability to throw in a defensively responsible hard checking line could make a difference in a slow boring game. the problem is that many nights our 4th is made up of 2 thugs and an ahl winger being played as a center. assuming our 4th line was made up of mclemment + one of ashton/damigo/smith and one of bodie/mclaren/orr i think they could play 5-7 minutes a night. sure 1 minute of ice time could be taken from each of the other lines.

in the regular season a player might like playing 22+ minutes a night but in a hard playoff series it will take a toll on them i think, especially if a game goes to overtime.

the bottom line is we need a dependable 4th line, even if carlyle chooses not to play them more then 3 minutes we still need them to be able to handle that.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

I'll end off with this then: Does the leadership of one player increase the skill-level of another player? Maybe in a video game like world of warcraft or something, but not in real life.

We'll agree to disagree. Its totally fine to have differing opinions. The world would be a very bland place if we all thought the same. Great debate!

Whoa. Maybe this is the proper response against all your arguments.

Teams would have to pay a king's ransom to acquire a young player with no pending UFA status who can contribute to a team for a playoff run.

Vets with pending UFA's are exchanged for many reasons and for veteran leadership.

You're trying to re-invent the wheel with unlimited funds and zero cap restrictions. And you think that other teams' GMs will hand over those players. It can't be done...unless it is a video game.

 

[mydnyte]

I'm not sure what the big attraction to D'Amigo is. He doesn't have the size or grit to play on a 4th line. And yes, I think that Carlyle should fully utilize a 4th line of:

Trevor Smith - Jay McClement - Troy Bodie

Smith can also play centre so you don't feel obligated to line match 100%, has the ability to kill penalties and is a much better skater than anyone currently on that line.

He is fast, and great defensively, and has decent touch ...there is no reason the 4th line cant be a pure 100% shutdown line.

 

[GoHardSports]

Whoa. Maybe this is the proper response against all your arguments.

Teams would have to pay a king's ransom to acquire a young player with no pending UFA status who can contribute to a team for a playoff run.

Vets with pending UFA's are exchanged for many reasons and for veteran leadership.

You're trying to re-invent the wheel with unlimited funds and zero cap restrictions. And you think that other teams' GMs will hand over those players. It can't be done...unless it is a video game.

I don`t really understand what arguement you`re making here. Never in my post did I suggest acquiring anyone, I suggested going with a more skilled forward group than we`re currently rolling with. Its a valid argument as its not like our defensive game is anything great to begin with anyway with McClement. Obviously people disagree, but this is another point-of-view to look at it from.

My personal opinion is that intangibles in the locker room are overated by the fans and that GMs don`t go out to specifically add verteran leadership, but to make they`re on-ice production from the team better. People tend to overrate the value of these intangibles for some reason.

 

[Porn*]

Bodie has busted his ass and shown to have some quality play... might not be overly offensive but his effort, size, speed and aggressiveness warrants a 4th line spot.

 

[ryno23]

JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - Kulimen
XX -Bolland - Clarkson
McClement - Holland - Bodie/prospect

To me its all about filling the 3rd line left wing spot with a scorer who can play a hard nosed game.

4th line has 2 C playing on it and a winger who can skate, play physical and chip in hte odd goal.

 

[Trapper]

Posted this a while back:

I really wish this team treated the fourth line like Anaheim does.

Nick Bonino and Mathieu Perreault swap between being 2nd line and 4th line centres for their team but the the two lines get equal ice time (their 3rd line is the shutdown line).

On any given night, Anaheim's lines look like this:

Penner/Maroon - Getzlaf - Perry
Silfverberg - Bonino/Perreault - Selanne/Palmieri
Cogliano - Koivu - Winnik
Beleskey/Maroon - Bonino/Perreault/Steckel - Palmieri/Jackman

Players that rotate in and out of the line-up depending on the match-ups, and all players that can play to their roles whether it be scoring or grinding. We have the personal to do it too. Designate a shutdown line and then roll the other two lines as role lines dependent on the team that they are facing.

JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri/Holland - Clarkson/Leivo
Raymond - Kulemin - Bodie (Bolland when he returns)
Leivo/McLaren - McClement/Holland - D'Amigo/Ashton/Orr

Something based around that. It's a system that is working wonders in Anaheim. We wouldn't have a "fourth" line - we'd have a top line, a shutdown line, and two role lines that can contribute different ways on a nightly basis. And with such a heavy rotation of players, they're keeping the team fresh which is why they're winning so much.

Granted, Anaheim has more depth than we do but I still think we have the appropriate personel to pull it off

If thats the case and you are following the Ducks model, move McClement to the wing on the 4th line. Use him at center on the PK. Alternate Kadri/Holland depending who is having the better game. Roll 4 lines so the team has gas for the 3rd period.

JVR/Bozak/Kessel
Lupul/Kadri/Kulemin
Raymond/Bolland/Clarkson
McClement/Holland/Bodie or Abbott

 

[Joey Hoser]

Our offence is too good to take their ice-time away to roll four lines. The guys on the fourth line should only play a few minutes regardless if it's Ashton and D'Amigo or Orr and McLaren.

Might as well dress the guys who can matter to a hockey game without even going on the ice.

 

[The CyNick]

I think most coaches play the guys they feel they can trust in specific situations.

The salary cap makes it so that few teams will have 12 reliable forwards that you can put out there on a regular basis. Combine that with injuries, and you are even more likely to be getting to players who are not capable of a regular shift every game.

Most teams have some version of a top six, bottom six or a hybrid top 9 . Not many teams have guys on their 4th line who can be interchanged with their first or second line. You can probably name a few, but I doubt It's the majority.

A guy like Bolland cam be an effective third line centre, and might even be able to do okay now and then on a second line. But do you want a Jay McClement playing 2nd line minutes? Peter Holland is another example of a third liner who could play 2nd line occasionally but you probably don't want him there all the time.

If anything we are moving closer to a top 9 model with McClement as a useful 10th forward who can kill penalties and check. If we dress Bodie and Smith, I like that as a 12 person group, but I don't like any of those 4th liners getting 2nd line minutes.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

I don`t really understand what arguement you`re making here. Never in my post did I suggest acquiring anyone, I suggested going with a more skilled forward group than we`re currently rolling with. Its a valid argument as its not like our defensive game is anything great to begin with anyway with McClement. Obviously people disagree, but this is another point-of-view to look at it from.

My personal opinion is that intangibles in the locker room are overated by the fans and that GMs don`t go out to specifically add verteran leadership, but to make they`re on-ice production from the team better. People tend to overrate the value of these intangibles for some reason.

I completely understand your arguement.

I look at Grabo last year in the playoffs (zero playoff games up until that point). The guy was not ready. He laid on the ice for half of the first game. He had no idea what was coming. An experienced player would be ready for that. A savvy veteran even more so. I personally would like to have 1 or 2 of those guys on my team.

As for leadership/locker room stuff:

How do you prepare a skilled team with no leadership for this sort of thing:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=52013

?

 

[GoHardSports]

I completely understand your arguement.

I look at Grabo last year in the playoffs (zero playoff games up until that point). The guy was not ready. He laid on the ice for half of the first game. He had no idea what was coming. An experienced player would be ready for that. A savvy veteran even more so. I personally would like to have 1 or 2 of those guys on my team.

As for leadership/locker room stuff:

How do you prepare a skilled team with no leadership for this sort of thing:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=52013

?

Grabo was not the only one without playoff experience last year. Basically the entire team was playing in the playoffs for the first time, and yet, most of the team played exceptionally well. In these cases, yes, it can sometimes help to have the perspective of someone who's been there and done that to maybe calm the nerves of others, but if that player with that experience can't bring some kind of added skill to the lineup then I dont see the point in acquiring him. Adding some type of skill-set to the lineup is the most important thing, locker-room intangibles are just a bonus. And again, who's to say that every veteran brings a calming presence to the locker room? Not every veteran has a calming persona that helps the younger players, in fact, I would argue that to be a rare quality (just like its rare to find good leaders in society).

The Corson-Mogilny episode is an extremely rare example. Stuff like that almost never happens.

 

[Banic]

Who's to say Holland is going to give up goals at the same rate that he generates them? My point is what we're doing now isn't working, why not try something different?

Things aren't working now? Aren't we on a winning streak? Or has 3 days w/o Leaf hockey have people forgetting.

This team's top 12 I would argue needs some tweaking not an over haul of the bottom 6. McClement plays his role fine, but they expect too much some times. 'put people in positions to achieve success, not failure'.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Yeah, I like Orr as well, but I just don't see how he helps you win a hockey game. It feels like a victory any time he gets off the ice without the other team scoring...

I don't feel that way. Currently Orr is a -4, and considering he's not relied on for offensive production, that's a pretty solid indication that he's not a defensive liability.

Sounds to me like he does the job he's paid to do, and isn't at risk of costing us a goal everytime he's on the ice.

4th liners like Orr are the most scrutinized players by their coaches, because he's extremely replaceable if he isn't doing his job effectively.

If he's getting minutes, it's because he's showing the coach he can be relied on. Plain and simple.

 

[indigobuffalo]

GoHardSports is arguing that because we're so poor defensively, having defensive guys playing seems ridiculous because "surely we can't get much worse there" so let's go for 4 scoring lines.

This is absolutely stupid.

It really is. You want to see the difference between 28th and 30th in PK? It's the Rotten Ronnie days of yore and landing in the basement in standings year after year.

Numerically the difference between 28 and 30 is small, but the difference in terms of WINS vs LOSSES is huge. If it means even just 5 of our wins turn to losses, we'd be out of the playoff picture right now.

Improvements to the team would be most notable in being better defensively. And guys like McClement are a big part of what's keeping us from becoming another terrible Leafs team. They need to ADD to what they have defensively, not give up and assume adding scoring means we'll just win all our games 10-8....

 

[Joey24]

The only deadline moves made by the conference finalists last year:

Pittsburgh got Morrow (34), Iginla (35), Murray (32), and Jokinen (29).
Chicago got Handzus (35).
LA got Reghr (32).
Boston got Jagr (40) and Redden (35).

Definitely a lot of veterans on that list and most of them wore either a 'C' or an 'A' at some point in their career. I guess at least a few good teams thought that veteran leadership was important.

Pittsburgh got players they though could help them win. Seriously bringing in guys at the deadline and having them come into your locker room and try to take over by being a vocal leader doesn't sit well with the current group of leaders already on the team. They got guys they thought would help them win a cup, they no doubt though Iginla would produce more then he did. I am sure they didn't think Morrow was completely done.

Chicago thought they needed Handzus, and I am sure they were not looking at his leadership attributes at the time of the trade.

La got Reghr who is still at the top of his game and ready for a playoff run.

Boston got Jagr who is old but still talented, they thought he would bring more scoring and Redden with that crazy salary off the books did look like a good depth addition.

Most teams try to get older players A because they are easier to get and B most of the time are on expiring contracts. You don't normally see 20 - 25 year old stars get moved at the deadline because they would probably cost more then teams are willing to pay.

Leadership is a term used very loosely around here. I knew older guys who played that never relay did much leadership things in or on the ice. Yet guys quite a bit younger were much more vocal and showed great leadership skills. Don't get caught up in this leadership crap too much because it's very misleading.

 

[GoHardSports]

Pittsburgh got players they though could help them win. Seriously bringing in guys at the deadline and having them come into your locker room and try to take over by being a vocal leader doesn't sit well with the current group of leaders already on the team. They got guys they thought would help them win a cup, they no doubt though Iginla would produce more then he did. I am sure they didn't think Morrow was completely done.

Chicago thought they needed Handzus, and I am sure they were not looking at his leadership attributes at the time of the trade.

La got Reghr who is still at the top of his game and ready for a playoff run.

Boston got Jagr who is old but still talented, they thought he would bring more scoring and Redden with that crazy salary off the books did look like a good depth addition.

Most teams try to get older players A because they are easier to get and B most of the time are on expiring contracts. You don't normally see 20 - 25 year old stars get moved at the deadline because they would probably cost more then teams are willing to pay.

Leadership is a term used very loosely around here. I knew older guys who played that never relay did much leadership things in or on the ice. Yet guys quite a bit younger were much more vocal and showed great leadership skills. Don't get caught up in this leadership crap too much because it's very misleading.

Thank you! Finally someone who gets it!

 

[Banic]

Thank you! Finally someone who gets it!

Who gets it? I thought you were preaching difference of opinions.

Maybe "leadership" is the wrong word. Most of the time the vets have been there, they know what it takes to win, they accept their role, they can be role models and more often than not, whether they have leadership skills or not, most of the younger guys look up to them as they were the stars growing up. I think it is very ignorant to say that veteran presence is overrated, mind you, that veterans also needs to be able to contribute to the team. As I have said before a very small ## of players play to 35, they tend to be the elite level skill guys, and those are the same guys being mentioned as vets.