News Article: Forget Top Six-Bottom Six, Embrace "Top-12"

[GoHardSports]

I completely forgot about Holland. I've edited the blog and included him in the lineup.

 

[Leafidelity]

By just watching him play, have we not seen more offensive instincts and prowess from Ashton as opposed to McClement? McClement is anemic in the offensive zone.

I've never seen anything but a potential 4th line grinder out of Ashton. He tries hard, but he's not very good at anything.

 

[GoHardSports]

I've never seen anything but a potential 4th line grinder out of Ashton.

The point is we can better utilize the 4th line center position by inserting someone who bring more to the table than McClement. I've since editied the post and replaced Ashton with Holland as I had initially forgotten about Holland.

 

[showtime8]

The point is we can better utilize the 4th line center position by inserting someone who bring more to the table than McClement. I've since editied the post and replaced Ashton with Holland as I had initially forgotten about Holland.

There are things that McClement brings to the team that you can't just replace. He's got veteran experience, he's durable, wins faceoffs and provides leadership.

By your argument, you could just bring up Brandon Kozun and hope that the Leafs continue to outscore players.

 

[Teeder9]

There are things that McClement brings to the team that you can't just replace. He's got veteran experience, he's durable, wins faceoffs and provides leadership.

By your argument, you could just bring up Brandon Kozun and hope that the Leafs continue to outscore players.

Agreed. On the third line you expect a bit more offense from players, but he's pretty much the perfect 4th line team player

 

[GoHardSports]

There are things that McClement brings to the team that you can't just replace. He's got veteran experience, he's durable, wins faceoffs and provides leadership.

I don't see how McClement's "veteran experience" is something that any one of the other veterans on the team can't provide.Whose to say that McClement provides any leadership at all? Are you in the locker room to experience this "leadership" he brings? Its not something that is quantifiable either, its overated when talking about bottom-six players. This is the type of ideology im trying to preach readers to stop using. It should be the best 12 forwards on the ice, not players that bring redeeming qualities to the dressing room.

Does McClement win that many more faceoffs than Bolland or Bozak would on the penalty kill or in a shutdown role?

By your argument, you could just bring up Brandon Kozun and hope that the Leafs continue to outscore players.

No, because obviously Kozun isn't a better player than McClement, Holland on the other hand is.

 

[Teeder9]

I don't see how McClement's "veteran experience" is something that any one of the other veterans on the team can't provide.Whose to say that McClement provides any leadership at all? Are you in the locker room to experience this "leadership" he brings? Its not something that is quantifiable either, its overated when talking about bottom-six players. This is the type of ideology im trying to preach readers to stop using. It should be the best 12 forwards on the ice, not players that bring redeeming qualities to the dressing room.

Does McClement win that many more faceoffs than Bolland or Bozak would on the penalty kill or in a shutdown role?



No, because obviously Kozun isn't a better player than McClement, Holland on the other hand is.

And yet, every trade deadline, those know less than you NHL Gm's keep trading for the non-important veteran leadership heading into the playoffs.

 

[My Sweet Shadow]

Does McClement win that many more faceoffs than Bolland or Bozak would on the penalty kill or in a shutdown role?

Interestingly enough, yes. Overall, McClement's 504/928 or 54.3% and Bozak's 417/869 or 48.0%, so slightly better but not dramatically. However, on the PK, McClement is 103/217 or 47.5%, while Bozak is only 38/102 or 37.3%.

With Bolland, it's tought to say; he barely took any shorthanded draws when healthy (5/12 or 41.7%), but was only 104/252 or 41.3% overall, so I'd imagine McClement would have a decent advantage shorthanded as well.

Another interesting fact about McClement is that he's 2nd among forwards and 4th overall on the team in terms of lowest On-Ice GA per 60 minutes. And that's while starting 70.4% of his shifts in the defensive end and over 22% of his TOI on the PK.

 

[GoHardSports]

And yet, every trade deadline, those know less than you NHL Gm's keep trading for the non-important veteran leadership heading into the playoffs.

I can gurantee you that "veteran leadership" isn't the first thing a GM is looking for when looking to improve his team.

 

[Quarter]

Wanting to get rid of McClement is laughable. He's the perfect fourth line centre/defensive specialist.

 

[My Sweet Shadow]

I can gurantee you that "veteran leadership" isn't the first thing a GM is looking for when looking to improve his team.

The only deadline moves made by the conference finalists last year:

Pittsburgh got Morrow (34), Iginla (35), Murray (32), and Jokinen (29).
Chicago got Handzus (35).
LA got Reghr (32).
Boston got Jagr (40) and Redden (35).

Definitely a lot of veterans on that list and most of them wore either a 'C' or an 'A' at some point in their career. I guess at least a few good teams thought that veteran leadership was important.

 

[GoHardSports]

Interestingly enough, yes. Overall, McClement's 504/928 or 54.3% and Bozak's 417/869 or 48.0%, so slightly better but not dramatically. However, on the PK, McClement is 103/217 or 47.5%, while Bozak is only 38/102 or 37.3%.

With Bolland, it's tought to say; he barely took any shorthanded draws when healthy (5/12 or 41.7%), but was only 104/252 or 41.3% overall, so I'd imagine McClement would have a decent advantage shorthanded as well.

Another interesting fact about McClement is that he's 2nd among forwards and 4th overall on the team in terms of lowest On-Ice GA per 60 minutes. And that's while starting 70.4% of his shifts in the defensive end and over 22% of his TOI on the PK.

And yet we're still 25th in GA/G and have the 28th ranked penalty kill. So why not try rolling with a 4th line centered by Holland that can actually score instead?

 

[GoHardSports]

The only deadline moves made by the conference finalists last year:

Pittsburgh got Morrow (34), Iginla (35), Murray (32), and Jokinen (29).
Chicago got Handzus (35).
LA got Reghr (32).
Boston got Jagr (40) and Redden (35).

Definitely a lot of veterans on that list and most of them wore either a 'C' or an 'A' at some point in their career. I guess at least a few good teams thought that veteran leadership was important.

You're missing the point here.

First, obviously veterans are the ones being moved at the deadline. They are the expendable peices with expiring contracts that don't have years of team control left.

Second, every one of those players was inserted into the lineup and made their team better. They weren't acquired to bring "veteran leadership" (although that may be a byproduct by SOME of the acquisitions), they were acquired to make the on-ice production of the team better.

 

[My Sweet Shadow]

And yet we're still 25th in GA/G and have the 28th ranked penalty kill. So why not try rolling with a 4th line centered by Holland that can actually score instead?

So...because we're doing poorly defensively, we should ditch our best defensive forward and go with a young offensive forward instead? Wouldn't that just exacerbate the issue; score a few more goals but let at least few more in?

Also, those GA/G and PK% are team numbers, not McClement's numbers.

EDIT: young offensive foward, not defensive

 

[My Sweet Shadow]

You're missing the point here.

First, obviously veterans are the ones being moved at the deadline. They are the expendable peices with expiring contracts that don't have years of team control left.

Second, every one of those players was inserted into the lineup and made their team better. They weren't acquired to bring "veteran leadership" (although that may be a byproduct by SOME of the acquisitions), they were acquired to make the on-ice production of the team better.

To rephrase a quote you used on someone else earlier: How do you know? We're you sitting the GMs' offices while they discussed trade possibilities?

 

[GoHardSports]

To rephrase a quote you used on someone else earlier: How do you know? We're you sitting the GMs' offices while they discussed trade possibilities?

You have got to be kidding me right? You seriously believe that a GM sets out to specifically acquire someone to comfort people in the locker room rather than provide on-ice production?

They value the production more than anything man! Its a myth that leadership actually elevates the play of a team! Its all about whether you can play the game, not whether you can give a great speech before it, that's the coach's job.

 

[GoHardSports]

So...because we're doing poorly defensively, we should ditch our best defensive forward and go with a young offensive forward instead? Wouldn't that just exacerbate the issue; score a few more goals but let at least few more in?

Also, those GA/G and PK% are team numbers, not McClement's numbers.

EDIT: young offensive foward, not defensive

Who's to say Holland is going to give up goals at the same rate that he generates them? My point is what we're doing now isn't working, why not try something different?

 

[My Sweet Shadow]

You have got to be kidding me right? You seriously believe that a GM sets out to specifically acquire someone to comfort people in the locker room rather than provide on-ice production?

They value the production more than anything man! Its a myth that leadership actually elevates the play of a team! Its all about whether you can play the game, not whether you can give a great speech before it, that's the coach's job.

Wow...that's my cue to exit this debate. I would like to respond, but I can't think of a response that doesn't seem to attack your knowledge of the game and I don't like to do that on these boards. So I'll just say we definitely disagree on some major aspects of how a hockey team works.

 

[GoHardSports]

Wow...that's my cue to exit this debate. I would like to respond, but I can't think of a response that doesn't seem to attack your knowledge of the game and I don't like to do that on these boards. So I'll just say we definitely disagree on some major aspects of how a hockey team works.

I'll end off with this then: Does the leadership of one player increase the skill-level of another player? Maybe in a video game like world of warcraft or something, but not in real life.

We'll agree to disagree. Its totally fine to have differing opinions. The world would be a very bland place if we all thought the same. Great debate!

 

[Vexed]

I'll end off with this then: Does the leadership of one player increase the skill-level of another player? Maybe in a video game like world of warcraft or something, but not in real life.

We'll agree to disagree. Its totally fine to have differing opinions. The world would be a very bland place if we all thought the same. Great debate!

The premise of this argument is so very off base.

Leadership has never had anything to do with improving someone's skill. It's about achieving consistent effort and higher levels of execution.

And FYI, playing a video game is no different than playing anything else, they just take different skills.

 

[gtforepro]

I liked this article more for the getting rid of the top 6 bottom 6 mentality and getting rid of Orr and McClaren than the stuff about McClement. Bodie and Clarkson are tough enough if things get chippy.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

This is the worst thread. Just a bunch of stats spewed between some weak thesis.

What does this have to do with the Leafs?

What are the leafs to do to change things so that they have a top 12?

This is not a video game. These are players with contracts. They can't be shuffled easily for the sake of your fantasy.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

For the sake of your argument why don't you try:

Ashton Holland Kessel
McClement Kadri Bodie
JvR Bolland Raymond
D'Amigo Bozak Kuli

??

 

[indigobuffalo]

By just watching him play, have we not seen more offensive instincts and prowess from Ashton as opposed to McClement? McClement is anemic in the offensive zone.

If only our fourth line players could be elite scoring players on top of elite defensive players...

Oh wait, there's this thing called a salary cap...

 

[indigobuffalo]

You have got to be kidding me right? You seriously believe that a GM sets out to specifically acquire someone to comfort people in the locker room rather than provide on-ice production?

They value the production more than anything man! Its a myth that leadership actually elevates the play of a team! Its all about whether you can play the game, not whether you can give a great speech before it, that's the coach's job.

Wow... just wow.