Footballing Hot Takes

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
2,560
Well he's right. Malkin and MacKinnon are clearly better than MacDavid this season.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,921
8,520
France
Well he's right. Malkin and MacKinnon are clearly better than MacDavid this season.
Not sure if you're ironic or not but he's saying the contrary.
And he's also saying Malkin isn't even comparable to McDavid (who BTW actually won an MVP before, while Gabigol never did).
 

Stray Wasp

Registered User
May 5, 2009
4,561
1,503
South east London
I still don't understand why that means they need to be taken with a huge grain of salt. There were plenty of extremely durable and prolific players in the past (I know you love Gerd Muller for example). If anything the evolution of tactics would, imo, benefit defending moreso than attacking and there's never been more talent in the game than now; the concentration can definitely be looked at in relation to the overall talent/athletic/coaching level.

It feels like in any sport there are always reasons to discount what the current generation is doing when referencing past greats like nobody could possibly be better than the nostalgic greats of the previous era. Even though it's simply logic that as time goes on (with diminishing returns of course), and advances are made in every aspect of the sport, the players should be better. Not just the top players, but the general level of play.

Well, feelings can be deceptive. With regards to the bolded, for instance, I feel that using the phrase 'nostalgic greats' is a revealingly prejudicial use of language. Unless I lean to the kinder explanation that it's a revealingly thoughtless use of language.

But that's feelings for you.

As for your mention of 'the previous era', again, some specific dates for 'the previous era' during which 'nostalgic greats' walked the earth like dinosaurs would be fascinating. Had you only specified when the era took place, who knows, I might even have agreed with you.

A propos of nothing, 1999 is almost two decades ago. It's certainly the past. And it marks the entrance of one Zlatan Ibrahimovic into senior professional football.

You must have heard of Zlatan Ibrahimovic. He's one of the most prolific goalscorers of the last decade. Even into his thirties- despite the supposedly constant evolutions of the game that one might have thought would usher in a new generation of stars to surpass him.

I'd agree that tactical evolutions tend to be defensively minded. (Though I'd imagine its offset a little by technological tools for analysing performance breaking down both collective defensive systems and the games of individual defenders for weaknesses). But consider it's for that very reason that the governing body will change the rules- to pull the carpet from under coaches' feet.

Defenders and forwards may both be quicker than they were 30 years ago. Suppose we accept the idea that both are better briefed tactically than 30 years ago. The area in which the balance tips significantly towards the forward is the greater margins of error he has when judging his runs or passes for offsides, and the greater restrictions against defenders hauling him back if he breaks free in the first place. The defender needs to get more right, the attacker less. That's a manifest shift in emphasis.

Meanwhile, although we can all put together a shortlist of enterprising coaches who give us hope for the future, I'd suggest we can all equally cobble together a list of dismal hacks who never seem to run out of opportunities. In the EPL alone, you have Allardyce, Hodgson, Lambert, Moyes, Pardew. And now Mark Hughes, arising like a zombie that had been entombed under a pile of manure.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,925
19,043
w/ Renly's Peach
Totally not comparable :laugh:

You can be close to a superior player without being on the same tier. Playing against McDavid has been the only time all year where MacKinnon wasn't the best player on the ice for either team :dunno:

MacK is having the crazier year, especially if you look at the #s he's put up since learning that the duchene trade was happening...80 points in 52 games...and he's torching the rest of the league at a higher level than is McJesus. But put them on the same ice and it's obvious that MacK is second best.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,921
8,520
France
You can be close to a superior player without being on the same tier. Playing against McDavid has been the only time all year where MacKinnon wasn't the best player on the ice for either team :dunno:

MacK is having the crazier year, especially if you look at the #s he's put up since learning that the duchene trade was happening...80 points in 52 games...and he's torching the rest of the league at a higher level than is McJesus. But put them on the same ice and it's obvious that MacK is second best.
Malkin isn't comparable to McDavid.

Amazing.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,921
8,520
France
You can like McDavid better all you want. That's not the point.

You said they're not comparable.
There isn't a single active player who's not comparable to Malkin. Either in terms of talent or achievements.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,925
19,043
w/ Renly's Peach
You can like McDavid better all you want. That's not the point.

You said they're not comparable.
There isn't a single active player who's not comparable to Malkin. Either in terms of talent or achievements.

I don't think they're comparable if one is clearly better, even if the difference between them isn't the most gaping chasm in the world.

Comparable means on the same level, and I don't think there is anyone on the same level as McDavid. Malkin is close, and MacK has been closer than anyone to it this season; but they're still not on the same level & so not comparable to McD.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,921
8,520
France
That's absolutely awful. You'd get absolutely shamed in the hockey boards for posting this and rightfully so. Malkin is a HOFer, Art Ross and Hart winner. He's an incredible talent that also won multiple Cups. When he's on, there's probably nobody better than him (and I love Mcjesus).
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,925
19,043
w/ Renly's Peach
That's absolutely awful. You'd get absolutely shamed in the hockey boards for posting this and rightfully so. Malkin is a HOFer, Art Ross and Hart winner. He's an incredible talent that also won multiple Cups. When he's on, there's probably nobody better than him (and I love Mcjesus).

Malkin is all of those things...and was my favorite player before Radulov came back, Zadorov made it, Landeskog became an Av, and Leon arrived...but McDavid is still even better.

I don't even like McDavid; he has as much personality as Crosby & I'm still salty with oilers fans for the s*** they've talked about the colorado rebuild; but McJesus is just an absurdly talented hockey player.
 

S E P H

Cloud IX
Mar 5, 2010
30,688
16,224
Toruń, PL
First off, Malkin is the most pure skilled player in the game, especially over McDavid. A big reason why I think this is because McD shot is at a 12 year old strength level and hasn't shown the goalscoring needed to be "the best player in the game". Malkin is outscoring Connor because he simply is the better player, that doesn't mean that McDavid cannot overtake him in the future which is highly probable, but Geno was better last season and this season. And I say this as a guy who hates the Penguins.
This. If you’re just going to regurgitate Christiano’s #s at us and point to his durability you can save your breath. That crap doesn’t convince anyone but CR7-fanboys
Well, we need to consider the fact that staying healthy is key component in football and Lima never had that ability. Inho did suffer from some injuries issues as well, but during his prime he could not be stopped by anyone...

1. Ronaldoinho
2. Lima
3. CR7

Trust cgf, I am far from a Ronaldo fan, the dude oozes just pure arrogance and douchebag-ery. Him getting pissed off that Bale stole a goal from him shows everything about his character, but he simply is up there with the Brasilians and Messi. If it wasn't for Messi, he would be known as the best player of this generation easily.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,925
19,043
w/ Renly's Peach
First off, Malkin is the most pure skilled player in the game, especially over McDavid. A big reason why I think this is because McD shot is at a 12 year old strength level and hasn't shown the goalscoring needed to be "the best player in the game". Malkin is outscoring Connor because he simply is the better player, that doesn't mean that McDavid cannot overtake him in the future which is highly probable, but Geno was better last season and this season. And I say this as a guy who hates the Penguins.

Well, we need to consider the fact that staying healthy is key component in football and Lima never had that ability. Inho did suffer from some injuries issues as well, but during his prime he could not be stopped by anyone...

1. Ronaldoinho
2. Lima
3. CR7

Trust cgf, I am far from a Ronaldo fan, the dude oozes just pure arrogance and *****ebag-ery. Him getting pissed off that Bale stole a goal from him shows everything about his character, but he simply is up there with the Brasilians and Messi. If it wasn't for Messi, he would be known as the best player of this generation easily.

Weren't you one of the people questioning the McDavid hype prior to his draft? Not sure you're opinion of the kid is completely unbiased ;-) Though you know how much I love Malkin, so you don't have to sell me on how incredible he is...the difference between us is in how good we think McJesus is.

As for staying healthy, that's more important to the hockey world than the football world. This sport just places more emphasis on the degree of greatness while NHL people care more about longevity.

As for CR7 douchiness, that's actually the most appealing part of him for me. I love great villains & showboaters. It's why Suarez is one of my favorite players and Icardi cracks me up. I just don't think he's special enough with the ball on his foot to be top 5 all time. His play off the ball is up there with Gerd's for GOAT...but I don't have Gerd in my top 5 either, except for when I'm trolling stat-whackers.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
15,991
942
Braavos
Not a question of selfishness either.

Yeah. Because people here tend to think CR7 is overrated for totally fair reasons.

Do tell.

Does the fact that there is a football player out there who has the same amount of Ballon d'Ors as Messi, playing in Messi's time, really not tell you anything?
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,925
19,043
w/ Renly's Peach
If McDavid played on a team with a PP as good as the Pens'...

This is one argument I just don't like. The avs PP was at 7% when MacKinnon was out, but operates at 20% with him, yet people use that PP as an argument against MacK. Bad coaching can overcome great players, but one player having to deal with bad PP coaching doesn't mean we should eliminte PP production from the conversation entirely...even if it needs to be qualified & taken with a grain of salt.

Otherwise we've gotta start talking about Matt "elite player" Duchene just because he's top 5-10 in ES scoring over the past 6 or 7 years while having been a part of a competent PP once in his career...2013-14.
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
15,991
942
Braavos
This. If you’re just going to regurgitate Christiano’s #s at us and point to his durability you can save your breath. That crap doesn’t convince anyone but CR7-fanboys

I agree, lets not use numbers and longevity when comparing the careers of a striker and winger-turned-striker.
While we're at it, lets also ignore their peak. Because that makes R9 look bad, so lets some other metric.

Lets use how many times they can dribble past people. Without scoring. Or winning league and CL titles.

I just don't think he's special enough with the ball on his foot to be top 5 all time.

Yes, lets use "special with the ball" as a measuring stick, and lets proclaim Robert Prosinecki as the GOAT.
He didn't have the pace, acceleration, durability, work rate, instincts, etc... but he could do with the ball what even Messi cannot do.

Again, there is a player out there who won as many Ballon d'Ors as Messi, playing in Messi's era.
Let that sink in.
Won more CLs. Has an absolutely ridiculous knockout stage scoring record while doing it.
But one is the GOAT (Messi, which I agree with wholeheartedly), while the other one is "borderline top-5" or not even that.
Absolutely ridiculous.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,925
19,043
w/ Renly's Peach
Salty cr7 fanboys are always fun. Especially when they start tilting at strawmen while refusing to read anything that doesn't praise their hero.
 

kov

Registered User
Jul 5, 2002
6,776
20
NYC
I'll give Cristiano this, he's kept his game up waaaay longer than I ever expected. To play the type of game he plays as long as he has is impressive. By any account I've seen he may be an egomaniac but he lives clean and works like crazy to keep his fitness and skills sharp.
 
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kov

Registered User
Jul 5, 2002
6,776
20
NYC
Came to post her about Martin Ødegaard. Is he still as highly-touted as he was when Madrid signed him? Seems like we'd be seeing more of him by now.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
59,925
19,043
w/ Renly's Peach
I'll give Cristiano this, he's kept his game up waaaay longer than I ever expected. To play the type of game he plays as long as he has is impressive. By any account I've seen he may be an egomaniac but he lives clean and works like crazy to keep his fitness and skills sharp.

No doubt. It's extremely impressive even with modern medicine, sports science, and rules.
 

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