Footballing Hot Takes

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Late to this discussion, but completely agree with @Evilo.

Malkin's had such an underrated career. 13th all time among guys to score 500 points in PPG average, yet the league doesn't list him as a top 100 player of all time. :help:

McDavid's PPG average so far is just slightly ahead of Malkin's, he'd be 12th if he could be added to the list, so I think you can argue that McDavid is the better player right now, but there's not a big difference here, and Malkin might be having the better season. He's also probably just as talented as McDavid offensively.

Malkin is amazing and for years was the best player in the league when on form...yes peak-Malkin > peak-Crosby...but I just think McDavid is even more ridiculously talented. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Malkin is an all-time great who could take over a game like few others have in my lifetime.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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Malkin is amazing and for years was the best player in the league when on form...yes peak-Malkin > peak-Crosby...but I just think McDavid is even more ridiculously talented. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Malkin is an all-time great who could take over a game like few others have in my lifetime.

I won't argue with McDavid>Malkin, I think McDavid is the better hockey player and likely has the better career, but I think its close. Its like the Crosby/Malkin arguments. I personally think Malkin is the better hockey player between Crosby and Malkin, and the league has elevated Crosby for awards that he didn't deserve because he was their pre-designated golden boy, and Malkin was the guy who struggled to speak English for many of his first few years in the league, but I don't object to someone saying Crosby>Malkin. Its logical, and you could support that opinion, just like I think you could support Malkin>Crosby.

My problem with this is saying Malkin isn't comparable to McDavid. Unless you expect McDavid to have like a Gretzky or Lemieux career, I don't know how incomparable he is to Malkin.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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I'm with on Malkin v Crosby, but I do think McDavid is in tier of his own. There's others who are close, like Malkin, Kuch & this MacKinnon, but they're not his peers. It's like Neuer, there's been other really great keepers during his time, and there's been other keepers who were close to him, but he was still always a cut above and in a tier of his own even when DDG was singlehandedly keeping United relevant in England.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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This is the soccer forum but McDavid has done absolutely nothing to deserve being out in a tier of his own. He's not the best player in the league by any measure.

I know but if we took this anywhere else we'd have to discuss it with the rest of HF, and I like you guys more than most of them.

As for McD, it just feels like everytime I watch him play one of the guys who's having a better year than him, he's clearly the more talented player. Put him out there against MacKinnon / Malkin / Kucherov and to me it's clear who's the best player on the ice...and it isn't one of those three guys who are battling for the Hart.

*Admittedly though I was a better hockey player than soccer player when I was young, because I had been on skates since I was 2 and developed early physically, while alway being better at being able to regain my stamina than maintain it; I know a lot more about the technical aspects of football and so trust my ability to assess footballers much more than I do hockey players. So this might just be an example of me being a bit of a hockey layman.
 
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YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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I know but if we took this anywhere else we'd have to discuss it with the rest of HF, and I like you guys more than most of them.

As for McD, it just feels like everytime I watch him play one of the guys who's having a better year than him, he's clearly the more talented player. Put him out there against MacKinnon / Malkin / Kucherov and to me it's clear who's the best player on the ice...and it isn't one of those three guys who are battling for the Hart.

*Admittedly though I was a better hockey player than soccer player when I was young, because I had been on skates since I was 2 and developed early physically, while alway being better at being able to regain my stamina than maintain it; I know a lot more about the technical aspects of football and so trust my ability to assess footballers much more than I do hockey players. So this might just be an example of me being a bit of a hockey layman.
Personally I think that people get too caught up in the aesthetic portion of play and don't think about effectiveness enough. McDavid is probably one of the nicest players in the league to watch and a lot of that has to do with the fact that he might be the best hockey skater I've ever seen. That said, as much as he's immensely talented, he definitely isn't a more effective player than a handful of others in the league. My favourite player growing up was Pavel Bure (well him and Jason Spezza) -- I just LOVED watching him. I think it's easy to fall in love with players that are aesthetically pleasing to watch and to forget about little things, or how much of an impact overall they have on the ice/field/whatever.

Also peak Crosby is without a doubt the best player of his generation (yes, better than peak Malkin or Ovechkin). Before his concussions/injuries he looked on the way to putting up, potentially, the best 'era adjusted' season ever (iirc). He's still definitely the best player of his generation, and not just for his offensive pursuits. But again, he doesn't fall into that typical mold where someone would look at him play and think 'wow, amazing' the way that Malkin can do at times. He's just so, so smart, hard working and obviously physically gifted.

That said the line of thinking above is not limited to hockey or any one sport. I think it's most prevalent in soccer tbh. At the end of the day it's not about being the most flashy, the best looking (at what you're doing), or the most talented. It's about being the most effective player you can be and having the most impact in terms of winning games (or at least having the most impact on the pitch in terms of your team's functionality). There are a lot of factors that need to be considered that I don't think people spend much time thinking about (tap ins vs wondergoals, dribbling vs ghosting, tackling vs cutting off lanes, pressure vs zone control, etc.)

But anyway, I don't fault someone for thinking that McDavid might be the best player in the league right now, or at the very least the most talented. To say that he's on a different level to any other player in the league though? That's pretty bold and, IMO, has no real substance.
 
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cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
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That's a fair point. Especially coming from football where I grew up thinking of athletes as artists as much as warriors. But these guys are entertainers, so the aesthetic component is part of the equation. That's why HF champions goalscorers so much, scoring goals is straight fun, while setting goals up can be a lot more subtle.

But that doesn't mean that I'm not talking just as much about McDavid's abilities to control things on the ice as I am about how impressive he is to watch. He doesn't just look better than MacK when they go head to head, he dominates the match up...same with him & Kane, or him & whichever other superstar he's on the ice against most nights that I decide to check in on Drae.

He has off days, like everyone, but on the whole he's not just more attractive than the other stars when I watch him, he's more effective...despite the absolute garbage team Chia has put together around him.
 
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Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
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While there's no doubt that McDavid's skating is aesthetically pleasing, it also makes him uniquely effective. Like how he's far and away the best player in the league in transition, or how he leads the league in takeaways and terrorizes opponents on the forecheck because he can close down on them so quickly.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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While there's no doubt that McDavid's skating is aesthetically pleasing, it also makes him uniquely effective. Like how he's far and away the best player in the league in transition, or how he leads the league in takeaways and terrorizes opponents on the forecheck because he can close down on them so quickly.

Ahem, Nathan MacKinnon exists this season thank you very much :sarcasm:

...but I'm with you. The things that make McDavid so much fun to watch are also the things that make him so incredibly effective & dominant.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
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Ahem, Nathan MacKinnon exists this season thank you very much :sarcasm:

...but I'm with you. The things that make McDavid so much fun to watch are also the things that make him so incredibly effective & dominant.

MacKinnon is great in transition for sure. McDavid is a class above everyone else there though, and his zone entry stats back it up.

And the other thing that separates McDavid from other elite centers to me is his penalties taken vs penalties drawn. All those guys are terrifying with the puck on their stick, but McDavid is just so much better at creating PP situations and not putting his team on the PK. Especially compared to Malkin.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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While there's no doubt that McDavid's skating is aesthetically pleasing, it also makes him uniquely effective. Like how he's far and away the best player in the league in transition, or how he leads the league in takeaways and terrorizes opponents on the forecheck because he can close down on them so quickly.
I don't disagree. I'm just saying that to say he's a level above the likes of MacKinnon, Malkin, Crosby, etc. right now doesn't really have a lot of substance. While you can make the argument that they play on better teams, or maybe even have better line-mates (in some cases I think this is overstated especially in relation to MacKinnon) but they're still outperforming him in many areas. Performance > Talent. I don't have a problem with anyone thinking McDavid is the best player in the league; I just think that the visuals can create a gap that doesn't exist depending on how you evaluate players/performance with the 'eye test'.

It reminds me of baseball scouting from the past compared to now.
 
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Deficient Mode

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I don't disagree. I'm just saying that to say he's a level above the likes of MacKinnon, Malkin, Crosby, etc. right now doesn't really have a lot of substance. While you can make the argument that they play on better teams, or maybe even have better line-mates (in some cases I think this is overstated especially in relation to MacKinnon) but they're still outperforming him in many areas. Performance > Talent. I don't have a problem with anyone thinking McDavid is the best player in the league; I just think that the visuals can create a gap that doesn't exist depending on how you evaluate players/performance with the 'eye test'.

It reminds me of baseball scouting from the past compared to now.

There is a strong case that McDavid is the best performer overall in the league this year, but things that are only partly under a player's control (PP effectiveness, teammate shooting percentage) make him look worse compared to MacKinnon or Malkin.
 
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Cassano

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Aug 31, 2013
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There is a strong case that McDavid is the best performer overall in the league this year, but things that are only partly under a player's control (PP effectiveness, teammate shooting percentage) make him look worse compared to MacKinnon or Malkin.
That's a fair point. Especially coming from football where I grew up thinking of athletes as artists as much as warriors. But these guys are entertainers, so the aesthetic component is part of the equation. That's why HF champions goalscorers so much, scoring goals is straight fun, while setting goals up can be a lot more subtle.

But that doesn't mean that I'm not talking just as much about McDavid's abilities to control things on the ice as I am about how impressive he is to watch. He doesn't just look better than MacK when they go head to head, he dominates the match up...same with him & Kane, or him & whichever other superstar he's on the ice against most nights that I decide to check in on Drae.

He has off days, like everyone, but on the whole he's not just more attractive than the other stars when I watch him, he's more effective...despite the absolute garbage team Chia has put together around him.

Well, it looks like he's gonna run away with the Art Ross after this discussion began.
 
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Ceremony

Very Online Guy... perusing the forums
Jun 8, 2012
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Probably a good thing there isn't a hockey thread in this forum tbh
 
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YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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I'm really happy that this forum records so much of what was said. Not even referring to silly statements/arguments from other posters (though it is helpful, because when you go back after having learned a lot and re-read some of the debates or information brought forth you can learn even more). When I came to this forum I thought I knew a lot about soccer relative to the average person, but I've learned so much since then and still have a lot to learn. It's humbling to say the least, and while this particular thread isn't the only example of things that have changed my mind or taught me a lot it's the one I have been reading recently that made me think about that stuff. Obviously I still have a lot to learn and there will always be more to learn but I shudder at some of the things that I've said or thought in the past. I hope moving forward I can be more open minded (rather than just digging in against certain viewpoints and well thought out posts, particularly by @Stray Wasp and sometimes @Deficient Mode without digesting the information they were trying to bring to light).

Sorry for the late likes; I just enjoyed the read.

Cheers.
 

Evilo

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Mar 17, 2002
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I don't hate DD. He's a guy who doesn't take **** and has character. He makes his choices and doesn't care about anything else.
But at some point, he doesn't like offensive football and talent enough. He likes nothing more than a good old defensive battle with a 1-0 win on a corner kick. The DM in him speaking.
Wow, WC semi final right here. :D
 
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