GDT: Flyers @ Jets | Fri Nov 15 | 7PM | MTS Centre | "DIS 'N DAT"

[SensibleGuy]

It's quite comical. Peluso scores one goal and all of a sudden he's so important to the team. Let's not kid ourselves, the Jets aren't losing games because Peluso is out of the lineup.

Nobody is suggesting Peluso is the difference between winning or losing all by himself. But you want to try and have the best players available to you out on the ice at all times. We have a player on the bench who almost certainly has the potential to contribute more than the one on the ice. Its not about the one goal.

 

[Grind]

No one is saying he's the sole difference between winning and losing. In fact almost all Peluso supporters go out of their way to stress that. (I.e Guer... MattG's post above)

What we are saying is that Anthony Peluso is a better hockey player and brings more to the team than Chris Thorburn.
The idea that fans aren't supposed to be annoyed when they feel like their team is making a line up error is silly. And this is the exact place to vent that.

And I don't think Peluso scoring is the reason people want him to play.

i agree with most of these things though i'm actually not even convinced peluso is a marginally better player then thorburn.

My issue and concern comes completely for the messaging/communication/ and "rules" being presented.

IE: the process not the pieces/outcome.

It's the double standard, bizarre reasoning, and poor communication that bothers me, and the fact that we're seeing these same things after three years that makes it very worrisom.

I was willing to explain it away and hope it was just sort of a "fluke" or would change over the last couple years but i'm done jumping through hoops to justify seemingly unjustifiable decisions.

 

[Grind]

Conjecture, IMHO. I could just as easily theorize that more damage would be done to the locker room by making Thorburn a healthy scratch. As by all accounts he is well-liked in the locker room, and his scrappy effort and veteran presence is appreciated. Conjecture all the same.

I guess it is technically conjecture but we've seen these lineup decisions frequently in the past and it's one i don't understand, nor one i'm willing to give the coach a pass on just because "he's an NHL coach".

I feel there are more valid concerns against some of the things noel does (ie the above two things) then there are valid reasoning's.

 

[garret9]

I never really get how the psyche of hockey players is considered so fragile, in that scratching / waiving / trading a well liked player who is good in the room causes debilitation.

These are professionals who have for years seen their friends traded, cut, etc. all the way back to their childhood.

Sure they may not like it... but I think far too much emphasis is placed on the strength of locker room presence.

 

[Positive]

I guess it is technically conjecture but we've seen these lineup decisions frequently in the past and it's one i don't understand, nor one i'm willing to give the coach a pass on just because "he's an NHL coach".

I feel there are more valid concerns against some of the things noel does (ie the above two things) then there are valid reasoning's.

I feel the Peluso vs. Thorburn thing is overblown - it's more an indictment of how the community feels about the coach more than how it actually affects the team.

IMHO, there is no player on the team who is going to question why Chris Thorburn is dressed for the game. They aren't going to look at advanced stats, and wonder why this loser Thornburn is in the lineup, and then think, 'wow, I really doubt our coach now for putting this guy in'.

They know Thor well. They know that he's a 4th line guy, who will try his best, stand up for them, and probably start a scrap at some point. Just like he's done for the last 7 years in the organization. He'll be lucky to get 10 points in a season. Is Peluso more skilled? Probably. Marginally or definitively...who really knows.

What's that saying in combat sports? You have to beat the champ to be the champ...beat the man to be the man. You have to thrash the incumbent soundly, in order to take his job away.

IMHO Peluso hasn't done that yet. If you're going to take away a mans job...a well-liked, veteran's job, you better be sure. It's a tough call for a coach. Of course as fans, we'll make any change even if it, on paper, gives us even a 1% better chance of winning. It's just stat-crunching to us, like a video game. We play the guy with a 76 speed rating over the guy with a 74.

But there are intangibles in play here. Locker-room presence. Politics and status quo. It's entirely possible that the team is more comfortable playing with good ol' buddy Chris Thorburn at this stage. And perhaps the coaching staff has more confidence in Thor to manage shifts, and/or do whatever they ask. Conjecture again, but I wouldn't rule it out.

It usually takes something big or bad to shake up the status quo of a group, with any team, in any sport? Even harder when we're talking about the 4th line. Thus I argue Peluso hasn't been so good as to cause that shakeup yet, nor has Thorbs been so incredibly bad.

 

[SensibleGuy]

lol, so true garret. Not to mention the fact that Thorsy can probably contribute all his locker room magic whether he's in the line-up or the press box...

 

[Rook37]

I never really get how the psyche of hockey players is considered so fragile, in that scratching / waiving / trading a well liked player who is good in the room causes debilitation.

These are professionals who have for years seen their friends traded, cut, etc. all the way back to their childhood.

Sure they may not like it... but I think far too much emphasis is placed on the strength of locker room presence.

While I agree entirely that it's overvalued, I think the reasoning is that at this level, everyone is incredibly skilled and the mental game can be as important as the physical one. Thus, the reluctance to touch anything that might screw with your players' mental state, especially on a winning streak like this.

I don't necessarily agree, but I think that's the thought process behind it.

 

[wpgsilver]

How exactly is Peluso suppose to "beat the champ" that is ThorNburn without an opportunity to play?
By all accounts every time he played he got better. He converted some firm Peluso haters into people who saw potential.
As far as the "Thor is a locker room leader" stuff. Where has that gotten us? At what point do you just play the better hockey players, and if your team can't accept that as a reality THATS a problem.

Peluso played a number of games on the third line this year. I'm not saying he's a third line player, but he played well in those spots and certainly didn't hurt us.
Now try and imagine a situation where Chris ThorNburn is on our third line. How would anyone feel about this team on any given night if he's in our top 9.
The fact that one player has the ability to at worst tread water on the third line, while the other is sinking on the fourth should be enough to give the younger, faster, more skilled player a shot.

 

[tbcwpg]

I think too much stock is being put in the "hands are tied" comment. Hockey players are, generally, superstitious. Playoff beards, all that. If the team is winning, they don't like change. The team is on a 3-game winning streak, why change it up? Put him in after the next loss. We'll lose one of the next 3, I'm guessing. Put him in after that game.

 

[wpgsilver]

Refer to post 62.

 

[mzappa]

Jets win, 8-7

 

[Mathmew Purrrr Oh]

it's interesting how superstition shows itself in different sports - baseball players are insanely superstitious yet lineups are changed daily to give the team the best chance at winning (maybe if there wasn't a different starting pitcher every game this would change )

 

[garret9]

I understand keeping a "winning line-up intact", but what I never liked was Peluso was actually playing quite well at the time of Thorburn becoming healthy again, only for Peluso to be yanked out of the line-up leaving many to wonder if he was injured, even those in the media were asking "Why isn't Peluso playing? is he injured?" and apparently he wasn't, Thorburn was just healthy again.

To each their own, but Noel has his guys he likes, his favorites, and that is pretty obvious.

Here is what doesn't make sense to what Noel is saying. Peluso was in the line-up (and playing well) for the games from October 18th (Jets won 4-3 vs. St. Louis) to October 26th vs. Dallas. In that time span the Jets collected 6 of a possible 10 points.

Thorburn returns vs. Colorado October 27th, Peluso gets scratched the next two games leaving fans/media asking why? and if Peluso was hurt? in that time after collected 6 of 10 points, Noel alters the line-up and we lose 4 of the next 5 games.

After that Peluso gets in the next 3 games (Chicago, Detroit, Chicago) and we go 1-2. That's the last Peluso played.

Do I think Peluso leads us to a better team and more wins? probably not, no. Nor do I think he is the reason we started seeing more effort and collected 6 of a possible 10 points. I would take Peluso over Thorburn though. But if Noel doesn't want to mess with a line-up playing well, why did he do so when we seemed to finally be turning a corner and collected 6 of a possible 10 points in October? Yet Thorburn becomes healthy after missing 8 games due to injury and he automatically gets a spot back in the line-up over a player in the same role playing well, and when the team appeared to also be playing well.

If you're going to say one thing, stick to it.

True true

 

[Positive]

How exactly is Peluso suppose to "beat the champ" that is ThorNburn without an opportunity to play?
By all accounts every time he played he got better. He converted some firm Peluso haters into people who saw potential.
As far as the "Thor is a locker room leader" stuff. Where has that gotten us? At what point do you just play the better hockey players, and if your team can't accept that as a reality THATS a problem.

Peluso played a number of games on the third line this year. I'm not saying he's a third line player, but he played well in those spots and certainly didn't hurt us.
Now try and imagine a situation where Chris ThorNburn is on our third line. How would anyone feel about this team on any given night if he's in our top 9.
The fact that one player has the ability to at worst tread water on the third line, while the other is sinking on the fourth should be enough to give the younger, faster, more skilled player a shot.

Hey, I'm not saying I prefer playing Thorburn over Peluso. Playing Devil's Advocate. But some people couldn't come up with reasons as to why he might be, so I tried to offer some possible theories. The decision may not be arbitrary.

Just trying to talk people off the ledge. Though it seems they're having fun out there, so...

As far as players' psyches go, I'm not so sure they're entirely rock solid as we would like to believe. I mean we've all seen examples of players acting less than mature/professional/rational. And as fans we always talk about 'confidence'. If players weren't a tiny bit emotionally fragile, we'd never have to.

 

[wpgsilver]

I think we can all agree that we want the Jets to come out as hungry as Rob Ford is at home

 

[Bartho]

I never really get how the psyche of hockey players is considered so fragile...

Except when it comes to Burmistrov.

 

[Tarks]

I never really get how the psyche of hockey players is considered so fragile, in that scratching / waiving / trading a well liked player who is good in the room causes debilitation.

These are professionals who have for years seen their friends traded, cut, etc. all the way back to their childhood.

Sure they may not like it... but I think far too much emphasis is placed on the strength of locker room presence.

We have to remember that many NHL players are, for lack of a better word, kids. It's pretty much impossible to be a true professional at the age of 18-23, regardless of ones occupation. There are exceptions of course.

 

[Johnny HFBOARDS]

VBookie 500 on Jehts and 122 on Sabres!!!!!!!!!!!

Kane gets 4 tonight!!!

 

[Guerzy]

How exactly is Peluso suppose to "beat the champ" that is ThorNburn without an opportunity to play?
By all accounts every time he played he got better. He converted some firm Peluso haters into people who saw potential.
As far as the "Thor is a locker room leader" stuff. Where has that gotten us? At what point do you just play the better hockey players, and if your team can't accept that as a reality THATS a problem.

Peluso played a number of games on the third line this year. I'm not saying he's a third line player, but he played well in those spots and certainly didn't hurt us.
Now try and imagine a situation where Chris ThorNburn is on our third line. How would anyone feel about this team on any given night if he's in our top 9.
The fact that one player has the ability to at worst tread water on the third line, while the other is sinking on the fourth should be enough to give the younger, faster, more skilled player a shot.

Well said!

 

[King Woodballs]

Just ****ing win

 

[Edgar Halliwax]

I've nearly given up hope.
And what I foresee happening is Peluso will finally get in, show some rust and be stuck in purgatory again.

You're preaching to the choir Silver. Neither of those guys is a great player, but I just can't understand what Noel sees in Thor

At least Tony P. brings some energy - and on those occasions when fisticuffs are required - he will WIN.

 

[garret9]

Except when it comes to Burmistrov.

Conjecture?

 

[wpgsilver]

Last note from me about Peluso till after the game.
It's sad watching him and Redmond play pass during warm up.

 

[KingBogo]

Calling it now Bright Eyes has a lights out game and really stirs up the comparison debate with Couturier. Oh yeah in a big Jets victory.

 

[Brominator]

First Jets hatty tonight. I'm calling it.