Flyers' 2017-18 roster discussion, part 2

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

Continue discussion here.

Part 1: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2172179

Click to read more...

 

[FlyerFire]

Jordan Weal- do we have something here, or is AHL career fodder?

 

[David St Hubbins]

Not feeling it. The only spot I see for him, that's slugging it out for the last top 9 wing slot with Raffl (Voracek, Simmons, Schenn, TK, Lindblom, Raffl/Weal). But I wouldn't want to go more than 1 year on a contract with him, unless Raffl gets picked up by Las Vegas, then I'm still stopping at 2 since Allison, Bunnyman, and Laberge should be coming around, not to mention our Russians and the kids already at LV.

 

[Hiesenberg]

I think Weal could be an decent winger in the B6. He's better than VDV for sure.

 

[imfree19]

I dont know why people are so hesitant about Weal. Even when he wasnt playing well last year, you could still see he had some potential.

I think he has more pure skill and hockey sense than Cousins, Leier, Laughton, Raffl, and obviously Vandevelde/Bellamare. On a good-great team, he could be a third line scorer.

 

[Hiesenberg]

That's where it comes down too. If Weal can score at an ok rate in the NHL is he better than a bunch of guys that can get into the zone and then don't know what to do with it? Because the Flyers are flush with them.

 

[bb12]

I dont know why people are so hesitant about Weal. Even when he wasnt playing well last year, you could still see he had some potential.

I think he has more pure skill and hockey sense than Cousins, Leier, Laughton, Raffl, and obviously Vandevelde/Bellamare. On a good-great team, he could be a third line scorer.

Thats the thing, he has more skill and hockey sense, but out of those guys, 4 are 4th liners, 2 are worse but they serve a different purpose. Leier, laughton and even PEB are 4th liners in a role to forecheck, play d and put pressure on as well as PK. Weal does none of that so he isnt in the same category. now when we look at a 3rd/2nd line role, he fits, but the problem is space. Unless we trade away a raffl or weise, we are jam packed in the top 9.

Unless Hextall plans to give Lindbolm a year in the AHL, were does he fit. Id love to give him a shot, just like i wanted to give Gagner a shot, but it needs to be in the right place, top 9 scoring line.

 

[Hiesenberg]

Thats the thing, he has more skill and hockey sense, but out of those guys, 4 are 4th liners, 2 are worse but they serve a different purpose. Leier, laughton and even PEB are 4th liners in a role to forecheck, play d and put pressure on as well as PK. Weal does none of that so he isnt in the same category. now when we look at a 3rd/2nd line role, he fits, but the problem is space. Unless we trade away a raffl or weise, we are jam packed in the top 9.

Unless Hextall plans to give Lindbolm a year in the AHL, were does he fit. Id love to give him a shot, just like i wanted to give Gagner a shot, but it needs to be in the right place, top 9 scoring line.

See that's the issue, why the 4th line reserved to muckers and grinders who can't do anything.

Maybe you should put skill guys down there that can all pop in 10-12 goals a year. THEN you make it more difficult to defend.

 

[BillDineen]

Weal has been good on defense and solid on the forecheck. He would make an ideal 4th liner if needed. Paul Byron types are what teams are transitioning to. Weal fits that mode.

 

[imfree19]

Thats the thing, he has more skill and hockey sense, but out of those guys, 4 are 4th liners, 2 are worse but they serve a different purpose. Leier, laughton and even PEB are 4th liners in a role to forecheck, play d and put pressure on as well as PK. Weal does none of that so he isnt in the same category. now when we look at a 3rd/2nd line role, he fits, but the problem is space. Unless we trade away a raffl or weise, we are jam packed in the top 9.

Unless Hextall plans to give Lindbolm a year in the AHL, were does he fit. Id love to give him a shot, just like i wanted to give Gagner a shot, but it needs to be in the right place, top 9 scoring line.

Well then we can hope he moves Raffl or Weise. Having someone who actually scores on the third line is an attribute of a good team. Also, in this "new" NHL, having a guy who can score on the 4th line isnt such a bad thing either. Even if he doesn't play all those roles you mentioned, in my opinion a great team will have multiple guys throughout the whole lineup who are well rounded players who play different roles. I dont think its necessary to have that old school kinda 4th line that cant score for ****.

Im so tired of seeing Raffl on this team. He needs to be moved or sent down to make room for NHL caliber players.

 

[David St Hubbins]

Here's my math regarding the 4th line: it line will have PEB, and he should not be a center. Now, maybe Raffl joins this, but he is not much on the PK, nor is Weise. Putting Weal with them doesn't work.

Now, Laughton, PEB + 1 could be the start of a decent 4th line that forechecks and plays the PK. Maybe Weise is that other wing, maybe Aube-Kubel or Fazleev. Or Read if LV doesnt take him in the ED. But I dont see Weal there, which takes me back to maybe 1 wing position out there.

 

[Curufinwe]

92 points in 269 games with limited PP time is 3rd line NHL caliber. That's 28 points per 82 games.

 

[Flyotes]

Weal is 8 points in 18 games. 6 goals. Shooting above 15% atm however. All goals and points at EV and +4. 59.2% CF with a ton of zone starts.

I'm not sold on him, but he's making a case. Probably the cause of this debate at all.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/w/wealjo01.html

 

[Hiesenberg]

Weal has a high shooting % because where he's going. How many slam dunks is he scoring. God forbid somebody skates into the crease looking for plays and not skating along the boards like a bunch of primadonnas

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Weal is 8 points in 18 games. 6 goals. Shooting above 15% atm however. All goals and points at EV and +4. 59.2% CF with a ton of zone starts.

I'm not sold on him, but he's making a case. Probably the cause of this debate at all.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/w/wealjo01.html

Personally, I'm not too concerned with the actual "production," per se, as much as I am impressed with his productivity - he is playing very well, and very consistently, and making things happen. I think that helps soften the other team up when you have players playing that way, even when they don't score, and that helps everyone throughout the lineup. I also think it helps the team build consistency, which has been a massive problem all season long (exacerbated by all the blending).

 

[imfree19]

92 points in 269 games with limited PP time is 3rd line NHL caliber. That's 28 points per 82 games.

How many of those points did he get on the first line with star players at his side?

He might be a third liner on a average to below average team(like us). 4 line probably fits him better but I still dont think the guy adds anything to this team. Watching him on the 1st line is painful. He forechecks hard but has no hockey sense or stickhandling skills.

We need guys with skill and speed. Which is why Id rather have Weal on the third line. Maybe even the 4th if hes out there with Laughton and PEB.

Being content with these below average players does not help.

 

[Tripod]

Weal has been good on defense and solid on the forecheck. He would make an ideal 4th liner if needed. Paul Byron types are what teams are transitioning to. Weal fits that mode.

100% agreed.

No one says you have to dress crap 4th liners with no offensive ability. It's why I did not want PEB re-signed.

A 4th line of Weal Laughton and Cousins could be very effective in drawing penalties and adding scoring as well.

Lindblom G Jake
TK Flip Simmonds
Raffl Couts Schenn
Weal Laughton Cousins/Weise

But with PEB here for 2 more years, and Weal possibly moving on as a UFA, it isn't going to happen.

 

[bb12]

See that's the issue, why the 4th line reserved to muckers and grinders who can't do anything.

Maybe you should put skill guys down there that can all pop in 10-12 goals a year. THEN you make it more difficult to defend.

Im not saying it needs to be goons at all, i am completely against that mentality. but a 4th line will never be looked at an an offensive minded line, you cant have 4 of those as your team will get ripped apart it needs balance. My ideal 4th line is Leier - Laughton - PEB. That is a line that 2 of those guys can be expected to pot 10 goals each. and who knows, maybe with 2 guys who have offensive upside, PEB can finally utilize the good shot he actually does have

 

[Appleyard]

On the subject of Raffl: in his first season he put up 27 point pace while playing in a 3rd line role for half the season. He is also very good defensively and a good skater.

The average #6 winger (I.E. the weaker of the two '3rd line' wingers offensively) on cup finalists this decade average 29 points per 82.

Melker Karlsson and Bryan Rust were the two '#6' wingers over the season for last years cup finalists. Wingels and Fehr were the '#7' wingers.


If Raffl is your #7 winger (who on cup finalists this decade average 20 points... Paille (30) and Hansen (29) have been the only ones over 25) then the team has a silly deep group of wingers.

He should really be PKing too. He was very good in his first 1 1/2 seasons here on PK before taken off.


I mean, yeh, it would be awesome if he was on the 4th line - but he is a good 3rd line calibre winger.

 

[Hiesenberg]

Im not saying it needs to be goons at all, i am completely against that mentality. but a 4th line will never be looked at an an offensive minded line, you cant have 4 of those as your team will get ripped apart it needs balance. My ideal 4th line is Leier - Laughton - PEB. That is a line that 2 of those guys can be expected to pot 10 goals each. and who knows, maybe with 2 guys who have offensive upside, PEB can finally utilize the good shot he actually does have

Why not? CBJ has Hartnell & Gagner on their 4th line. Seem to be doing pretty well. Much better than us.

 

[bb12]

Well then we can hope he moves Raffl or Weise. Having someone who actually scores on the third line is an attribute of a good team. Also, in this "new" NHL, having a guy who can score on the 4th line isnt such a bad thing either. Even if he doesn't play all those roles you mentioned, in my opinion a great team will have multiple guys throughout the whole lineup who are well rounded players who play different roles. I dont think its necessary to have that old school kinda 4th line that cant score for ****.

Im so tired of seeing Raffl on this team. He needs to be moved or sent down to make room for NHL caliber players.

I completely agree, 1 needs to slot in with coots and schenn, 1 needs to go along with read. We need to rid our team of the role players that dont exactly "fit" or help the core when they struggle.

 

[sobrien]

Let's just go sign Kovalchuk...

 

[Curufinwe]

How many of those points did he get on the first line with star players at his side?

He might be a third liner on a average to below average team(like us). 4 line probably fits him better but I still dont think the guy adds anything to this team. Watching him on the 1st line is painful. He forechecks hard but has no hockey sense or stickhandling skills.

We need guys with skill and speed. Which is why Id rather have Weal on the third line. Maybe even the 4th if hes out there with Laughton and PEB.

Being content with these below average players does not help.

All Weal's points are coming while playing with skilled players.

You say we need skill and speed, but Raffl is a faster skater than Weal. And he's not below average, he's been a good 3rd liner over a four year period.

 

[bb12]

Why not? CBJ has Hartnell & Gagner on their 4th line. Seem to be doing pretty well. Much better than us.

In all they also have a much better team then us, a lot less holes. i understand what your saying, but we also have to take into consideration its clear hak doesnt want to have G pking. and we have one of the worst pks in the league. so we need the aspect of a laughton or leier there to a replace vdvs trash and b similar to what your stating, build a 4th line that produces.

I get what your saying, but unfortunately, i dont see hak going that route and i want him gone but i dont see that either. Thats why i would like to see a more versatile 4th line and if weal stays, top 6 or 9. If we could move some extras this off season we can be very very good next year with Lindbom, G, Jake, TK, Simmer, Filp, Schenn, Coots as 8 of our top 9, then filling in with guys like Laughton and Leier (who are no longer waiver exempt IIRC) then PEB, Cousins and Weal possibly. and that doesnt include raffl and Weise

 

[Hiesenberg]

Fortunately PEB/VDV are terrible PKers so you aren't losing anything there.